Really bad news

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Davide Tosi, Jan 23, 2003.

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  1. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...

    >Cyclenews said he was there for a cleaning, so no anesthetic was involved.

    You'd be surprised, but some people need an anesthetic to get a cleaning. When I go for a cleaning
    my dentist ask every so often if it hurt and whether I want an anesthtic. I always decline.
    -----------------
    Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
     


  2. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
    unlikely that this had anything to do with Zanette's death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several
    conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood flow in the heart. Patients with these
    conditions are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical
    procedures to decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This is a condition where bacteria infect
    the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in people with turbulent blood flow
    because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like flotsum will collect in an eddy in a
    river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental procedures. People who get endocarditis show
    up with fever a day or so after having the dental procedure. They do not have sudden death will in
    the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette had a heart conduction system abnormality that
    caused a lethal arrhythmia.
    --
    Mike Murray MD
     
  3. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
    unlikely that this had anything to do with Zanette's death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several
    conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood flow in the heart. Patients with these
    conditions are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical
    procedures to decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This is a condition where bacteria infect
    the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in people with turbulent blood flow
    because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like flotsum will collect in an eddy in a
    river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental procedures. People who get endocarditis show
    up with fever a day or so after having the dental procedure. They do not have sudden death will in
    the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette had a heart conduction system abnormality that
    caused a lethal arrhythmia.
    --
    Mike Murray MD
     
  4. Frank Tantillo <[email protected]> schreef in berichtnieuws
    [email protected]
    > He may have had a heart murmur - believe it's called Mitral Valve Prolapse (sp?) -
    >
    > Prior to a cleaning, the dentist will normally prescribe penicillin or anti-biotic, to prevent
    > bacteria from entering the system and attacking
    the
    > dysfunctional valve (sorry, don't really understand the physiology here).

    I've heard that the Streptococcus bacteria can infect patients when they are at the dentist. It
    drills a small hole in one of the heart's valves and causes a heart attack. But as far as I know,
    this can be prevented through surgery and I don't know if it can cause someone's death so quickly.

    In any case, the Amore e Vita coach is far too quick with his conlusions. At least let the family
    mourn in peace before throwing around accusations of doping.

    Jonathan.
     
  5. Tony Szurly

    Tony Szurly Guest

    Alex Rodriguez wrote:
    >
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] says...
    >
    > >Cyclenews said he was there for a cleaning, so no anesthetic was involved.
    >
    > You'd be surprised, but some people need an anesthetic to get a cleaning. When I go for a cleaning
    > my dentist ask every so often if it hurt and whether I want an anesthtic. I always decline.
    > -----------------
    > Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)
    >

    I just ask for some of those Peruvian candies they keep on hand.
     
  6. "Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
    > unlikely that this had anything to do with
    Zanette's
    > death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood
    > flow in the heart. Patients with these
    conditions
    > are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical procedures to
    > decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This
    is
    > a condition where bacteria infect the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in
    > people with turbulent blood flow because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like
    > flotsum will collect in an eddy in a river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental
    > procedures. People who get endocarditis show up with fever a day or so after having the dental
    > procedure. They do not have sudden death will in the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette
    > had a heart conduction system abnormality that caused a lethal arrhythmia.
    > --
    > Mike Murray MD

    The autopsy could be interesting.

    Brian Lafferty
     
  7. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote: "The autopsy could be interesting."

    True, although it may not show anything. Conduction system abnormalities in the heart may be
    difficult to demonstrate after the heart is no longer beating.
    --
    Mike Murray
     
  8. Max Watt

    Max Watt Guest

    "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > --
    > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > >
    > > Marlene Blanshay wrote:
    > >
    > > > ANd there was a dutch cyclist, Bert Ooosterbosch, who died of a heart attack also at 32. He
    > > > was retired from the pros by then but was planning
    > a
    > > > comeback when he died.
    > >
    > > Possibly not the best example to use if we are looking for explanations
    > other
    > > than EPO use for an early death due to heart attack... STF
    >
    > Steroid abuse comes to mind. Bernard Thevenet admitted that his steroid abuse was causing his
    > kidneys and heart problems.
    >
    > Brian Lafferty

    Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties. It
    could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
    pathogenic causes.
     
  9. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?
    > "Max Watt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties.
    > > It could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
    > > pathogenic causes.

    I'm sort of surprised at the comments here. Young athletes generally have a limited social life
    and a lot more disposable income than others in their age group. This means that partying takes on
    the same frenetic pace as their training and the use of recreational drugs isn't unusual in this
    sort of group.

    Cocaine is well known to cause the sorts of heart damage implied by Zanette's demise.
     
  10. Davide Tosi

    Davide Tosi Guest

    [email protected] (Tom Kunich) wrote:

    >I'm sort of surprised at the comments here. Young athletes generally have a limited social life and
    >a lot more disposable income than others in their age group. This means that partying takes on the
    >same frenetic pace as their training and the use of recreational drugs isn't unusual in this sort
    >of group.
    >
    >Cocaine is well known to cause the sorts of heart damage implied by Zanette's demise.

    Zanette wasn't that young and he was also married with two little daughters. This kind of familiar
    situation doesn't agree with a "Ullrich style" life. Also he wasn't known to be that kind of guy, he
    came from the Friuli province, extreme North East, where people work a lot and make no parties. In
    case of similar death by a southern racer like figueras, sgambelluri, commesso, that would be a
    sound hypothesis, but in this case I frankly reject it as not plausible.
     
  11. Max Watt

    Max Watt Guest

    "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?
    >
    > Brian Lafferty
    >

    Thevenet's problem was liver damage. This is a problem with oil-based, synthetic steroids. There are
    a number of steroids he could have used that woudn't have damaged his liver. Arnold Schwarzeneger
    used probably much higher levels of steroids, for a longer period, but more benign ones. Still he
    needed a heart transplant in his fifties.

    The valve thickening that leads to heart attack, seems to be due to an inability of the heart
    muscles involved to relax during sleep-- at least that's one theory. The valve becomes enlarged if
    steroids are used chronically, which interferes with its function. However, this process takes about
    20 years to become fatal after the enlargment has occurred.
     
  12. Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?

    Brian Lafferty

    --
    It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.--Voltaire Together We Can End Violence,
    Exploitation and War Visit UU PeaceWork, AFSC and True Majority
    http://www.home.earthlink.net/~javaeye/index.html http://www.afsc.org http://www.truemajority.org
    "Max Watt" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "Brian Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > --
    > > "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Marlene Blanshay wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > ANd there was a dutch cyclist, Bert Ooosterbosch, who died of a
    heart
    > > > > attack also at 32. He was retired from the pros by then but was
    planning
    > > a
    > > > > comeback when he died.
    > > >
    > > > Possibly not the best example to use if we are looking for
    explanations
    > > other
    > > > than EPO use for an early death due to heart attack... STF
    > >
    > > Steroid abuse comes to mind. Bernard Thevenet admitted that his
    steroid
    > > abuse was causing his kidneys and heart problems.
    > >
    > > Brian Lafferty
    >
    > Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties.
    > It could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
    > pathogenic causes.
     
  13. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    "Max Watt" <[email protected]> wrote: "Arnold Schwarzeneger used probably much higher levels
    of steroids, for a longer period, but more benign ones. Still he needed a heart transplant in
    his fifties.

    The valve thickening that leads to heart attack, seems to be due to an inability of the heart
    muscles involved to relax during sleep-- at least that's one theory. The valve becomes enlarged if
    steroids are used chronically, which interferes with its function."

    Wrong. He did not have transplant. He had surgery to replace his aortic valve. Evidentially the
    valve defect was a congenital defect. Although there are cardiac effects from use of steroids there
    is not much to support valve disorders associated with steroids. In fact, Schwarzenegger collected a
    settlement in a defamation action against a cardiologist who made this claim publicly. You should be
    careful Max.
    --
    Mike Murray
     
  14. G. Focker

    G. Focker Guest

    [email protected] (Bikerecker) wrote
    >But...heart attack, at age 32? Is this just a tragic circumstance, or
    > >did someone's number come up on an EPO promissory note?
    > More or less, what i thought when I saw the news.

    What does all this say about our sport, that this poor bastard MUST be guilty of doping because he
    dies at 32 from a heart attack. And this is supposed to be a group of racers (peers if you will,
    well, excluding Kunich that is) Shame, shame. How about we actually wait for real facts rather than
    letting speculation be this guys legacy, bet some of you "ace detectives" were on the OJ jury too,
    another fine example of only hearing what you want to hear rather than the facts.

    FOCKER
     
  15. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (G. Focker) wrote:

    > [email protected] (Bikerecker) wrote
    > >But...heart attack, at age 32? Is this just a tragic circumstance, or
    > > >did someone's number come up on an EPO promissory note?
    > > More or less, what i thought when I saw the news.
    >
    >
    > What does all this say about our sport, that this poor bastard MUST be guilty of doping because he
    > dies at 32 from a heart attack. And this is supposed to be a group of racers (peers if you will,
    > well, excluding Kunich that is) Shame, shame. How about we actually wait for real facts rather
    > than letting speculation be this guys legacy, bet some of you "ace detectives" were on the OJ jury
    > too, another fine example of only hearing what you want to hear rather than the facts.
    >
    > FOCKER

    This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:

    "Furthermore, the results of Denis Zanette's autopsy carried out in Padova by Dr. Santo Davide
    Ferrara today point to a possible congenital heart condition. "A cardiac pathology, perhaps
    congenital, difficult to diagnose without invasive clinical examinations, aggravated by a badly
    treated bronchial 'flu," read the report. Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar
    circumstances."

    The final line seems fairly important here.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, k?

    For some people, quantity IS quality...
     
  16. G. Focker

    G. Focker Guest

    Howard Kveck wrote > This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:
    > Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
    > fairly important here.

    Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
    anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?

    FOCKER
     
  17. Gord Woolley

    Gord Woolley Guest

    Agreed.

    >> Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
    >> fairly important here.
    >
    > Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
    > anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?
    >
    > FOCKER

    Agreed. You would think people would wait for the evidence prior to condemning the guy. These are
    the sentiments that Bartoli mentioned on his site. The evidence shows Kunich's original posting
    about recreation drug use to be that much more retarded. Big surprise.
     
  18. "G. Focker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Howard Kveck wrote > This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:
    > > Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
    > > fairly important here.
    >
    > Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
    > anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?
    >
    > FOCKER

    Nobody has accused the deceased of dying as the result of drugs. However, given his occupation and
    prior involvment in a Giro d'Italia drug scandal, a thorough autopsy and judicial inquiry are, IMO,
    proper. Reading further in the same CyclingNews article just quoted:

    However, Dr Ferrara cautioned that (quoted in French sports daily L'Equipe), "His death seems
    natural, but I can't rule out that it was linked to doping." The results of the chemical and
    toxicology tests are expected to be known in a month's time, according to prosecutor
    Dragotto, who also authorised that the body could be taken away for the funeral, which will
    be held on Thursday.

    Brian Lafferty
     
  19. In article <BA4AF3EA.1FA00%[email protected]>, gord woolley <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Agreed.
    >
    >
    > >> Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
    > >> fairly important here.
    > >
    > > Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
    > > anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?
    > >
    > > FOCKER
    >
    >
    > Agreed. You would think people would wait for the evidence prior to condemning the guy. These are
    > the sentiments that Bartoli mentioned on his site. The evidence shows Kunich's original posting
    > about recreation drug use to be that much more retarded. Big surprise.

    Well, let's put it this way: Had he died in his 60s or beyond of heart failure, nobody would have
    said boo. Being a cyclist who dies in your 30s of heart failure is not conclusive evidence of
    anything except that heart failure kills people, but it is a pointer that the possible contribution
    of EPO use to premature death should be investigated. I knew it (and said so), the coroner knew it
    (because he specifically addressed the issue), and you knew it, though you properly showed a little
    more respect for the dead. I tried to be as circumspect as possible in my question, but it's better
    to ask the question and have it answered than to just pretend EPO abuse doesn't exist, and that it
    doesn't occasionally kill cyclists (in their 30s, by heart failure).

    In this case, the coroner says no, and more important, I think we can rule out an impossible three
    generations of EPO abuse in favour of three generations of unlucky genes. The family history is a
    preponderance of evidence against this death being drug-related.

    I apologize to anyone who thinks I was out of line, and my heartfelt prayers go out to Zanette and
    his family.

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
     
  20. I have a mitral valve prolaps and the dentist won't touch me unless I premedicated with a heavy dose
    of prophylactic antibiotics. It seems with MVP, eddies form in the blood flow through the heart and
    under some conditions, such as dental work, there is an increase of a certain bacteria in the blood.
    This bacteria can accumulate in the heart, trapped in these eddies. This can cause a heart attack. I
    have to do this even for a simple cleaning. My MVP went for years before I asked a doctor about it.
    The only symptom was an occasional flutter like someone had just jumped out at me. It happens maybe
    a couple times a month (that I can feel), passes quickly and is not at all bothersome. If it were
    less severe, I might even notice it.

    - Tere

    Stewart Fleming <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Ryan Cousineau wrote:
    >
    > > and jogging guru James Fixx), but the early death of a pro cyclist due to heart failure always
    > > raises one question, and it's not a pretty one.
    >
    > Would that question be: "Did he have a pre-existing heart condition?" STF
     
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