Rear Mech Advice wanted

[David Martin]

Julesh wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
> > Modern BB are easy, much easier than the old ones.
> >
> Thanks for the vote of confidence. I've not read up the usual suspects
> (Park Tool, Sheldon etc) on the subject yet but past messages here
> about different axle lengths, diameters and threading make it sound a
> bag of laughs!

That is the only thing to worry about, getting more or less the right
length axle.
IME within a few mm doesn't matter as long as the small ring doesn't
hit the frame.

What I would do is:

1. establish what really needs to be changed.. If it rides OK, then
ride it like that.

2. Change the wheels to campag cassette. Everything will work with
that.

3. Change the rear mech to a campag one.

4. Change the levers for Ergo.

5. Somewhere in there you may need to get new handlebars.

6. Change chainset and BB.

7. Look for a nice frame - Ribble do good value road frames on special
but their customer service has a well deserved reputation, and not for
being good.

8. New brakes?

9. Clipless pedals.

10. Saddle and seat pin

Bingo.. One nice shiny bike, and you have learned all the bits for home
mechanicing..

As for rides, from SW London head for the downs. Lots of nice roads and
a good road bike will *love* those hills.

...d

 

[Julesh]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Dave Larrington wrote:
>
>
>>I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on
>>the frame...
>
>
> That contradicts the experience of those many people who just spring open
> their frame 4mm wider by hand every time to bung a 130mm 8/9/10sp wheel
> in.
>
> I happened to be unlucky with my old frame that was more like 125mm and
> hubs with awkwardly shaped and textured locknuts: wouldn't go in without a
> /lot/ of force..... So I cold set aka bent using a threaded rod: easy
> job.
>
> ~PB
>
>
That I might try. It sounds a bit safer than the method using a bit of
4x2 and a floor

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html


Julesh

 

[Julesh]

Simon Brooke wrote:
> in message <[email protected]>, Julesh
> ('[email protected]') wrote:
>
>
>>Pete Biggs wrote:
>>
>>>Julesh wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I must admit I did rather choke - having stated my preference for
>>>>buying all the parts for this old wreck which only cost me £21 on Ebay
>>>>in the first place - at the price of the Campagnolo Record 10 Speed
>>>>Rear Derailleur which is first on the page[1]. However there are
>>>>lesser mechs below and, as much as I like Wiggle, from whom I've
>>>>bought stuff in the past this does give me an idea of what I should be
>>>>looking for in t' other place.
>>>
>>>The Campag Xenon mech is great value, and will work with the friction
>>>lever you have now, but won't work with a Shimano indexed shifter you
>>>may get in future.
>>>
>>
>>Excellent so - just checking I've got this right....
>>
>>I can buy a Xenon Mech and use it with my current friction shift lever
>>and freewheel?
>
>
> Yes, definitely.
>
>
>>This will also allow me (should I choose) to replace my rear wheel with
>>one that has a 700c cassette and run as many gears as the Xenon will
>>handle while still using friction shift?
>
>
> Yes, definitely, provided you have a steel frame - you may need to 'cold
> set' (bend) the frame.
>
>
>>- I understand I need to drop
>>the brake pads and possibly run a narrower chain if I do this.
>
>
> If your current wheels are 27", getting the brakes to work on 700c rims
> is going to be tricky and will at least require 'deep drop' brakes. But
> you can have new wheels built up with modern cassette hubs and 27" rims.
>
>
>>New question: Is the "lock nut width" greater on hubs with more
>>sprockets or does the non-cassette part of the wheel reduce in width?
>
>
> Both.
>
>
>>Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
>>due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain just
>>get narrower?
>
>
> It's worse than that. Cassette hubs are standard widths - I'm pretty sure
> they're all 130mm OLN. So you may need to bend your frame (or get
> someone else to do it) and this is really only practicable with steel
> frames.
>
>
>>Should I ever be able to find a compatible Campag downtube index
>>shifter
>>- David Martin has kindly pointed me at a source of Shimano ones - I
>>can index the Xenon if I want to?
>
>
> Yes. Or you can get Ergo levers.
>
Thanks again


Julesh

 

[David Martin]

Julesh wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
> > Dave Larrington wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on
> >>the frame...
> >
> >
> > That contradicts the experience of those many people who just spring open
> > their frame 4mm wider by hand every time to bung a 130mm 8/9/10sp wheel
> > in.
> >
> > I happened to be unlucky with my old frame that was more like 125mm and
> > hubs with awkwardly shaped and textured locknuts: wouldn't go in without a
> > /lot/ of force..... So I cold set aka bent using a threaded rod: easy
> > job.
> >
> > ~PB
> >
> >
> That I might try. It sounds a bit safer than the method using a bit of
> 4x2 and a floor

What is surprising is just how far you have to stretch it before it
sets. I got mine out to about 180mm before it started to set. Yours may
be easier (different steel). It is quite easy, just a bit of a faff
(wind it out, wind back, measure, wind out again etc.

...d

 

[Pete Biggs]

Simon Brooke wrote:

> If your current wheels are 27", getting the brakes to work on 700c
> rims is going to be tricky and will at least require 'deep drop'
> brakes.

It's not always very tricky. My front Weinmann centrepull's blocks could
be lowered by the required 4mm; so could the rear after a bit of filing.
Still, I eventually replaced them with dual pivot calipers for better
performance.

~PB

 

[Julesh]

David Martin wrote:
> Julesh wrote:
>
>>Pete Biggs wrote:
>>
>>>Dave Larrington wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on
>>>>the frame...
>>>
>>>
>>>That contradicts the experience of those many people who just spring open
>>>their frame 4mm wider by hand every time to bung a 130mm 8/9/10sp wheel
>>>in.
>>>
>>>I happened to be unlucky with my old frame that was more like 125mm and
>>>hubs with awkwardly shaped and textured locknuts: wouldn't go in without a
>>>/lot/ of force..... So I cold set aka bent using a threaded rod: easy
>>>job.
>>>
>>>~PB
>>>
>>>
>>
>>That I might try. It sounds a bit safer than the method using a bit of
>>4x2 and a floor
>
>
> What is surprising is just how far you have to stretch it before it
> sets. I got mine out to about 180mm before it started to set. Yours may
> be easier (different steel). It is quite easy, just a bit of a faff
> (wind it out, wind back, measure, wind out again etc.
>
> ..d
>
I was wondering about that. I had a horrible feeling that it would just
spring back when I stopped!

What do a I need. One large bolt, two nuts, two washers and a solid open
end spanner?

Julesh

 

[Julesh]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Simon Brooke wrote:
>
>
>>If your current wheels are 27", getting the brakes to work on 700c
>>rims is going to be tricky and will at least require 'deep drop'
>>brakes.
>
>
> It's not always very tricky. My front Weinmann centrepull's blocks could
> be lowered by the required 4mm; so could the rear after a bit of filing.
> Still, I eventually replaced them with dual pivot calipers for better
> performance.
>
> ~PB
>
>
My old Weinmann's look like they have at least 4mm to play with. I hear
it's also possible to enlarge the slots with a file. Somewhere on
Sheldon's site there's a plan for adding a little adaptor to drop the
whole caliper a few mm.

Julesh

 

[Pete Biggs]

David Martin wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>
>> Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket
>> at once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):
>
> Is that the only reason to prefer Mirage over Xenon? There are new
> Xenon levers for 30 quid on eBay, Mirage are 40(ish). That is 2006 9
> speed.

No, sorry, I forgot to mention that Xenon's left Ergo is indexed. You
won't get the trimmability you're after.

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

Jim Price wrote:

> My reason for choosing Mirage over Xenon was that the Mirage ones are
> more easily maintainable using parts which are interchangeable with
> the rest of the Campag range.

But would the Xenon Ergo ever need servicing since it's simpler? I think
the multi-shift design wears out the indexing springs of the other
models -- they do eventually need replacing if you shift a lot.

~PB

 

[Julesh]

David Martin wrote:
> Julesh wrote:
>
>>David Martin wrote:
>>
>>>Modern BB are easy, much easier than the old ones.
>>>
>>
>>Thanks for the vote of confidence. I've not read up the usual suspects
>>(Park Tool, Sheldon etc) on the subject yet but past messages here
>>about different axle lengths, diameters and threading make it sound a
>>bag of laughs!
>
>
> That is the only thing to worry about, getting more or less the right
> length axle.
> IME within a few mm doesn't matter as long as the small ring doesn't
> hit the frame.
>
> What I would do is:
>
> 1. establish what really needs to be changed.. If it rides OK, then
> ride it like that.

Nothing really need to be changed as it works fine. As I noted above
I'm doing this to learn how to do it.
>
> 2. Change the wheels to campag cassette. Everything will work with
> that.

Yes
>
> 3. Change the rear mech to a campag one.

Oh, Yes!
>
> 4. Change the levers for Ergo.

Probably not - I'm happy with DT shifters and don't need the hassle and
expense.

>
> 5. Somewhere in there you may need to get new handlebars.

Not if I pass on 4!
>
> 6. Change chainset and BB.

Probably next!
>
> 7. Look for a nice frame - Ribble do good value road frames on special
> but their customer service has a well deserved reputation, and not for
> being good.

After 1-6? I am looking for a nice old steel frame and forks made of a
recognisable material but was planning to do this bit after I'd learnt
BB's and Headsets as I'll probably want to strip the entire thing and
get it repainted.
>
> 8. New brakes?

Got some of those but didn't know about the nut vs Allen bolt fixing
issue when I bought them and am currently insufficiently brave to take
the Dremel to the frame and forks to get them to fit. Neither of my two
LBS fancy trying this either so if I still have the same problem when I
get a replacememt frame I'll get it done professionally then.
>
> 9. Clipless pedals.

Yes

>
> 10. Saddle and seat pin

Luxury - what's wrong with a bit of rust?
>
> Bingo.. One nice shiny bike, and you have learned all the bits for home
> mechanicing..
>
> As for rides, from SW London head for the downs. Lots of nice roads and
> a good road bike will *love* those hills.
>
> ..d
>

 

[Pete Biggs]

David Martin wrote:

> My main motivation for changing would be to get a front changer that
> works. I can envisage riding with one campag (left) and one shimano
> lever until such time as I get round to getting a new wheel, unless it
> is possible to put a campag cassette on a shimano freehub (or get it
> to work acceptably well).

Campag cassette doesn't fit on Shimano hub but there are various other
solutions. Some people even say the spacing is similar enough not to
matter. I've not tried that myself; wouldn't be keen to since standard
Campag is noisy enough if it's not quite adjusted right.

~PB

 

[James Thomson]

"Julesh" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I must admit I did rather choke - having stated my preference
> for buying all the parts for this old wreck which only cost me
> £21 on Ebay in the first place - at the price of the Campagnolo
> Record 10 Speed Rear Derailleur which is first on the page[1].

Cycle jumbles are another source of discount parts, new and used. The
advantage over eBay is that you get to examine the goods first hand,
there's no competitive bidding, no postage to pay, and prices often drop
towards the end of the day.

http://www.campyoldy.co.uk/events.htm

A large proportion of the buyers and sellers are more interested in vintage
bikes, so good, usable (often unused) modern parts can often be had for
very good prices. Highlights from my haul at the Kidderminster jumble last
month were a Shimano XT 1" threaded headset and a pair of XT V-brake
levers, both unused, for £3 each.

The Ripley jumbles always get a good turnout, and Ripley's just a quick
spin out along the A3 for London cyclists.

James Thomson

 

[Pete Biggs]

Julesh wrote:

> What do a I need. One large bolt, two nuts, two washers and a solid
> open end spanner?

That's it. Hardware stores have "threaded rod".

Ideally you should check alignment aftwards in case one side bent more
easily than the other. I didn't bother with my old Raleigh frame (that
owed me nothing); seems to ride alright!

~PB

 

[David Martin]

Julesh wrote:
> > What is surprising is just how far you have to stretch it before it
> > sets. I got mine out to about 180mm before it started to set. Yours may
> > be easier (different steel). It is quite easy, just a bit of a faff
> > (wind it out, wind back, measure, wind out again etc.
> >
> > ..d
> >
> I was wondering about that. I had a horrible feeling that it would just
> spring back when I stopped!
>
> What do a I need. One large bolt, two nuts, two washers and a solid open
> end spanner?

A bit of 10mm threaded rod, I used 4 nuts, though only 2 are necessary,
and some washers.

Place the threaded rod through the dropouts, bolt in place on one side
(one nut either side.)
Place the ring spanner over the rod so it is between the dropouts, and
you'll need another nut in there too.

The first two nuts hold everything in place. The third is used to put
tension on the rear triangle.

Measure the distance between the dropouts.

Start to expand the frame with the loose nut. When your confidence
gives up, measure. Release the nut and see whether it has made any
difference.
Repeat, taking the distance further each time till you have achieved
what you set out to do.

A ring spanner becomes very useful as you don't drop it or have to deal
with the weight and a *lot* of nut turning.

...d

 

[Jim Price]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Jim Price wrote:
>
>> My reason for choosing Mirage over Xenon was that the Mirage ones are
>> more easily maintainable using parts which are interchangeable with
>> the rest of the Campag range.
>
> But would the Xenon Ergo ever need servicing since it's simpler? I think
> the multi-shift design wears out the indexing springs of the other
> models -- they do eventually need replacing if you shift a lot.

Believe it or not, I'm actually sort of looking forward to it, but I'm
not expecting it to happen any time soon.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Roger
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Shimano Altus is a compatible upgrade, without changing everything
> else. You can use this with up to a 13/34 7 gear cog.

[snip]

> Changing to Deore/XT/XTR types requires changing everthing......buy a
> new bike!

I think you are wrong on two counts. First, the OP is using friction
shifters, so any rear mech will work (with the possible exception of
SRAM 1:1 actuation ratio mechs, for which the lever may not pull enough
cable). Second, even if he were using indexed levers, Altus, Deore, XT
and XTR all have the same actuation ratio.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; making jokes about dyslexia isn't big, it isn't clever and
;; it isn't furry.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, David
Martin ('[email protected]') wrote:

> there are two things that have to change at the same time in an indexed
> system:
> the shift levers and the rear cluster of sprockets. They must both be
> rated for the same number of gears or it will not work (apart from a
> couple of exceptions).

Even that isn't strictly true. My Mantra currently has 8 speed shifters
and a 9 speed cassette. I ought to get it a nine speed shifter but it
isn't a big priority. It's clunky, but it works (although it obviously
skips one gear, usually third).

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

'there are no solutions, only precipitates'