Rear Mech Advice wanted

[Pete Biggs]

Julesh wrote:

> I can buy a Xenon Mech and use it with my current friction shift lever
> and freewheel?

Yes. The only doubt I have is about a 6/7/8sp chain being noisy in it.
But any problem with that could be solved by adding washers to the jockey
wheels or using a 9-speed chain with your 6-speed system (should work).

Couple of minor points to be aware of with Xenon mech (which actually
works as well as a Chorus!, IME):

It's partly made of plastic -- this is no problem normally (and keeps the
weight down), but I don't know how well it would stand a crash.

Cage back plate corrodes easily. More of a cosmetic issue since the
material is thick enough to last ages despite this corrosion.

Comes in three versions: short, medium, long. Long will keep your options
open.

> New question: Is the "lock nut width" greater on hubs with more
> sprockets or does the non-cassette part of the wheel reduce in width?
> Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
> due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain
> just get narrower?

Sprockets, spacers and chain do get narrower, but 8, 9 and 10 speed road
hubs are 130mm instead of your 126mm. Modern MTB hubs are 135mm for 8 and
9 speed. You'll probably be able to spring open your frame to take a
130mm hub.

> Should I ever be able to find a compatible Campag downtube index
> shifter
> - David Martin has kindly pointed me at a source of Shimano ones - I
> can index the Xenon if I want to?

Indexing is a little more complicated with Campag than Shimano since
Campag have messed about with their geometry and cable pull ratios.

There's a slight index error when using 2001+ 9sp Campag rear mech with
pre 2001 9sp shifters and vice versa, but this may not be enough to bother
you. I'm not sure about mixing Campag 8 and 9-speed, though some limited
experimentation I did left me with doubts about it.

To keep things sure and simple, I suggest only getting a Campag mech if
excluding the idea of Shimano indexed shifter.

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Julesh
('[email protected]') wrote:

>> The cassettes/freewheels are interchangeable between road and MTB.
>> Pick the gearing to suit and don't worry about the label.
>
> Thanks - thought that was the case.

Ish. Shimano and SRAM cassettes are interchangeable (I've recently fitted
a new SRAM PG990 to my Cannondale - beautiful bit of kit). Campag
cassettes have different splining and consequently you need a different
hub. Most factory wheelsets (except Shimano) and hubs are available in
either Campag or Shimano fit.

Mixing Campag derailleurs with Shimano cassettes (or vice versa) is also
a bit dodgy when you get above 7 speed, because the spacings change.
Somebody else will be able to give you more detail than I can.

Just stick to Campag - you can't go wrong

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; All in all you're just another nick in the ball
-- Think Droid

 

[Dave Larrington]

In article <[email protected]>, Julesh
([email protected]) wrote:

> New question: Is the "lock nut width" greater on hubs with more
> sprockets or does the non-cassette part of the wheel reduce in width?
> Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
> due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain just
> get narrower?

I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on the
frame...

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
Jack Hackett for Pope, next time!

 

[Dave Larrington]

In article <[email protected]>, Julesh
([email protected]) wrote:
> David Martin wrote:

> > You should be able to spring a frame over a 135mm hub, but it will be a
> > pain. A 130 will go fine into a 126 rear triangle with a minor amount
> > of effort. Cold setting the frame is pretty easy and also easy to foul
> > up.
>
> Yes. I've read Sheldon's description of his method and its not for me!

My old touring frame is 126; I managed to convert it to 7-speed by the
insertion of a couple of fat washers - one either side of axle - to push
the ends out a bit.


> > Those should be quite nice as far as friction shifters go. To get
> > indexed DT levers (which will be *far* cheaper than STI (combined
> > brake/gear levers) try http://sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat84.htm
> > for a selection or scour eBay.
> >
> > ..d
>
> Thanks for that SJS seem to have what I need.

I have a suspicion that I still have the Shimano DT shifters from the
above bike (which is now my fixer) in a box in the shed. 7-speed, rear
switchable between indexed and friction, front friction only. I shall
try to remember to have a look tonight.

--
Dave Larrington - <http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/>
May you have an accident shaped like an umbrella.

 

[Pete Biggs]

David Martin wrote:

>> 2001+ Campag Mirage 9-speed is the best buy for brifters, IMO,
>> coupled with a Xenon mech.
>
> Hmm.. any sources for that? I may be convinced to go Italian when I do
> up the road bike, though having just bought an Ultegra 10 speed mech,
> it seems a waste to then shift to Campag.. OTOH, it may be cheaper to
> buy campag mech and levers than Shimano levers.

Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket at
once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):

www.dotbike.com/Products/ProductsS1C10P58.aspx

These also pop up on eBay but usually not with cables and stops (worth £15
to £20).

Plastic levers but stiff and nice plastic. Get Veloce for metal levers
and same innards, or for a 10-speed option as well as 9. You have to go
right up to Chorus to get a proper performance and weight advantage.

Xenon mech: www.dotbike.com/Products/ProductsS1C11P64.aspx -- check the
"Long" really is a Long by today's definition and not Medium, which was
previously called "Long" or "Triple" before a third, longer version was
introduced. (It might not really be a 2005 version, for all I know).

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Julesh
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Pete Biggs wrote:
>> Julesh wrote:
>>
>>>I must admit I did rather choke - having stated my preference for
>>>buying all the parts for this old wreck which only cost me £21 on Ebay
>>>in the first place - at the price of the Campagnolo Record 10 Speed
>>>Rear Derailleur which is first on the page[1]. However there are
>>>lesser mechs below and, as much as I like Wiggle, from whom I've
>>>bought stuff in the past this does give me an idea of what I should be
>>>looking for in t' other place.
>>
>> The Campag Xenon mech is great value, and will work with the friction
>> lever you have now, but won't work with a Shimano indexed shifter you
>> may get in future.
>>
> Excellent so - just checking I've got this right....
>
> I can buy a Xenon Mech and use it with my current friction shift lever
> and freewheel?

Yes, definitely.

> This will also allow me (should I choose) to replace my rear wheel with
> one that has a 700c cassette and run as many gears as the Xenon will
> handle while still using friction shift?

Yes, definitely, provided you have a steel frame - you may need to 'cold
set' (bend) the frame.

> - I understand I need to drop
> the brake pads and possibly run a narrower chain if I do this.

If your current wheels are 27", getting the brakes to work on 700c rims
is going to be tricky and will at least require 'deep drop' brakes. But
you can have new wheels built up with modern cassette hubs and 27" rims.

> New question: Is the "lock nut width" greater on hubs with more
> sprockets or does the non-cassette part of the wheel reduce in width?

Both.

> Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
> due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain just
> get narrower?

It's worse than that. Cassette hubs are standard widths - I'm pretty sure
they're all 130mm OLN. So you may need to bend your frame (or get
someone else to do it) and this is really only practicable with steel
frames.

> Should I ever be able to find a compatible Campag downtube index
> shifter
> - David Martin has kindly pointed me at a source of Shimano ones - I
> can index the Xenon if I want to?

Yes. Or you can get Ergo levers.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Diplomacy, American: see Intelligence, Military

 

[Pete Biggs]

Roger wrote:

> I am just not convinced about chain and teeth
> widths.

*Internal* width of 6, 7, 8 and 9 speed chains are pretty similar, so,
afaik, a 9sp chain will mesh with 6sp sprockets despite them being thicker
than 9sp sprockets. The overall width of a 9sp chain is narrower, though.

Certainly a 9sp chain can be used on 8sp chainrings, for example.

~PB

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Tom
('Don'[email protected]') wrote:

> Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> That's right; and SRAM aren't compatible with either.
>
> Some (more modern) SRAM shifters are Shimano compatable.

Some SRAM shifters are indeed Shimano compatible - after all Shimano
compatible shifters were SRAM's original product. But SRAM would be very
upset if you described these as 'more modern'. The 1:1 shift ratio that
SRAM introduced with their own derailleurs really does make shifting
substantially more accurate, which is part of why SRAM mechs are so much
better than Shimano.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Windows 95:
You, you, you! You make a grown man cry...
M. Jagger/K. Richards

 

[Pete Biggs]

I wrote:
> To keep things sure and simple, I suggest only getting a Campag mech
> if excluding the idea of Shimano indexed shifter.

....AND, if considering Campag, prepared to get 9sp shifters not 8sp,
preferably 2001+.

Even more of a sure and simple and safe suggestion: Only get a Campag
mech if planning on Campag 9/10sp 2001+ Ergos

~PB

 

[Pete Biggs]

Dave Larrington wrote:

> I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on
> the frame...

That contradicts the experience of those many people who just spring open
their frame 4mm wider by hand every time to bung a 130mm 8/9/10sp wheel
in.

I happened to be unlucky with my old frame that was more like 125mm and
hubs with awkwardly shaped and textured locknuts: wouldn't go in without a
/lot/ of force..... So I cold set aka bent using a threaded rod: easy
job.

~PB

 

[David Martin]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> David Martin wrote:
>
> >> 2001+ Campag Mirage 9-speed is the best buy for brifters, IMO,
> >> coupled with a Xenon mech.
> >
> > Hmm.. any sources for that? I may be convinced to go Italian when I do
> > up the road bike, though having just bought an Ultegra 10 speed mech,
> > it seems a waste to then shift to Campag.. OTOH, it may be cheaper to
> > buy campag mech and levers than Shimano levers.
>
> Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket at
> once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):
>
> www.dotbike.com/Products/ProductsS1C10P58.aspx
>
> These also pop up on eBay but usually not with cables and stops (worth £15
> to £20).
I have spare cables and already have stops (I am currently using RSX 7
speed).
My main motivation for changing would be to get a front changer that
works. I can envisage riding with one campag (left) and one shimano
lever until such time as I get round to getting a new wheel, unless it
is possible to put a campag cassette on a shimano freehub (or get it to
work acceptably well).

> Plastic levers but stiff and nice plastic. Get Veloce for metal levers
> and same innards, or for a 10-speed option as well as 9. You have to go
> right up to Chorus to get a proper performance and weight advantage.

Thanks for that. It is also in Black which is A Good Thing.

...d

 

[David Martin]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Dave Larrington wrote:
>
> > I doubt you'll get more than seven in without performing surgery on
> > the frame...
>
> That contradicts the experience of those many people who just spring open
> their frame 4mm wider by hand every time to bung a 130mm 8/9/10sp wheel
> in.
>
> I happened to be unlucky with my old frame that was more like 125mm and
> hubs with awkwardly shaped and textured locknuts: wouldn't go in without a
> /lot/ of force..... So I cold set aka bent using a threaded rod: easy
> job.

My frame was 124mm till I did the same. Now sits at 128 so will happily
take 126 or 130mm hubs.

...d

 

[David Martin]

Simon Brooke wrote:

>
> > Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
> > due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain just
> > get narrower?
>
> It's worse than that. Cassette hubs are standard widths - I'm pretty sure
> they're all 130mm OLN.
Not quite, but modern ones will all be 130mm. My road bike has 126mm
ones but they are quite old 7sp (originally Uniglide, now changed the
F/H body to make it Hyperglide.

...d

 

[Jim Price]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket at
> once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):

That was a feature I actually disliked when I first got Ergos, as I kept
changing 2 gears when I only wanted to change one. It took some time to
get used to it.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

 

[David Martin]

Pete Biggs wrote:

> Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket at
> once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):

Is that the only reason to prefer Mirage over Xenon? There are new
Xenon levers for 30 quid on eBay, Mirage are 40(ish). That is 2006 9
speed.

I suppose it would be worth getting them soonish and installing just
the LH one for the moment. Change the other (and the mech and the
wheel) as and when.

...d

 

[Jim Price]

David Martin wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>
>> Mirage Ergos (capable of shifting to more than one smaller sprocket at
>> once, unlike Xenon Ergos or Shimano STIs!):
>
> Is that the only reason to prefer Mirage over Xenon? There are new
> Xenon levers for 30 quid on eBay, Mirage are 40(ish). That is 2006 9
> speed.

My reason for choosing Mirage over Xenon was that the Mirage ones are
more easily maintainable using parts which are interchangeable with the
rest of the Campag range.

JimP

--
Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable, let's prepare to
grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after
all. - DNA

 

[Julesh]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Julesh wrote:
>
>
>>>...Triple chainset?
>>
>>Just a double chainwheel at present. If I felt the need
>>to replace the chainset I'd probably feel obliged to service/replace the
>
> BB
>
>>at the same time and as I'm a mechanical klutz who is learning slowly
>>that's a step too far for me at present.
>
>
> It'll be a small mechanical step to take in the near future, if you like,
> since BBs aren't expensive or difficult to fit. Adequate crank puller and
> bottom bracket tools are cheap from Mike Dyason's. On the other hand,
> the expense of the project will bumped up. It would be senisble to
> /think/ about getting a whole new bike if you could possibly afford one,
> not that it's never economical to do up an old bike, just takes some doing
> to keep the cost down.

This is really the issue to me. It's quite easy to get lots of minor
purchases past the cost control radar but harder to go out to buy a
Dawes Super Galaxy without someone noticing

The bike was bought as I'd never had a road bike, just a couple of low
end MTBs (there are no serious mountains in SW London!) and I thought it
would be nice to have something of low value to learn to do maintenance
on. That said I find it a very pleasant ride though as the frame makes
no claims as to materials it is presumably made of gaspipe and probably,
by other terms, not worth the effort I'm putting in to it.

I bought my cone spanners, Shimano freewheel tool and chain splitter
from Mr Dyason and very happy I am with all of them.
>
>
>>>...Sprockets larger than 28t?
>>
>>The bike has 27" wheels that can just take a 6 speed freewheel so 28t
>>will do at present. If I did want a larger sprocket could I use a MTB
>>rear mech and a Shimano Megarange freewheel or can you get road bike
>>equipment lower geared than I have already. I'm setting the bike up as a
>>sort of day/weekend fast-ish tourer. I'm quite lardy and just want
>>something I don't need to push up hills.
>
>
> I suggest getting a long cage rear mech now anyway if you think you might
> possibly want wider/lower gears in future. If planning on Shimano
> shifters, you might as well get an "MTB" mech just in case you'll ever
> need it, eg:
>
> www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=5088
>
> This should work with your existing setup and just about anything you may
> do in future if sticking with Shimano shifters.
>
Thanks - I'llkeep that in mind.
>
>>Couple of things come to mind here. I'd also like to change the wheels
>>to 700c at some point (when I can win some on EBay!) mainly so I can get
>>a better choice of tyres. If I did this I'd change to a cassette. Would
>>this be likely to affect my rear mech choice now?
>
>
> To some extent: 8 & 9sp mechs are optimised for 8/9sp chains. But a
> Shimano 6sp mech indexes with 8 & 9sp shifters and cassette, afaik.
>
> /snip
>
>>I had a "non-exhaustive" look on the Interwebthing for indexed downtube
>>shifters in case this helped me decide whether I wanted to go for a
>>Shimano or Campagnolo mech but didn't really find any. Are these
>>available anywhere
>
>
> I think you'll have to rely on the second hand market for those.

Fine by me!
>
>
>>or does everyone now just add stops at that position
>>and add "Brifters"? Its not a big deal and probably just something I'd
>>do for the practise as friction shifters are fine for me. The present
>>shifters are band-on Shimano 600 if that's important.
>
>
> It will be a big deal if you try brifters and like them so much that you
> wouldn't want to go back to down tubies. So don't even try them if you
> want to save money!

Not a problem.They are wonderful but as a trundly tourist I'm happy with
DT shifters.
>
> 2001+ Campag Mirage 9-speed is the best buy for brifters, IMO, coupled
> with a Xenon mech.
>
> Alternatively, look out for second-hand 6, 7 or 8sp Shimano indexed down
> tube levers or bar end levers.
>
> By the way, brake blocks need lowering by 4mm when converting from 27" to
> 700c.

Thanks

Julesh

 

[Julesh]

David Martin wrote:
> Pete Biggs wrote:
>
>>Julesh wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>...Triple chainset?
>>>
>>>Just a double chainwheel at present. If I felt the need
>>>to replace the chainset I'd probably feel obliged to service/replace the
>>
>>BB
>>
>>>at the same time and as I'm a mechanical klutz who is learning slowly
>>>that's a step too far for me at present.
>>
>>It'll be a small mechanical step to take in the near future, if you like,
>>since BBs aren't expensive or difficult to fit. Adequate crank puller and
>>bottom bracket tools are cheap from Mike Dyason's.
>
> I find that getting self removing crank bolts is a worthwhile few
> pence. It means that you can get the cranks off very easily with a 6mm
> allen key and solves a lot of grief. I think they are cheaper than a
> crank puller, but you do need a set per crank.
>
> Modern BB are easy, much easier than the old ones.
>
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I've not read up the usual suspects
(Park Tool, Sheldon etc) on the subject yet but past messages here
about different axle lengths, diameters and threading make it sound a
bag of laughs!

<Snip>


Julesh

 

[Julesh]

Pete Biggs wrote:
> Julesh wrote:
>
>
>>I can buy a Xenon Mech and use it with my current friction shift lever
>>and freewheel?
>
>
> Yes. The only doubt I have is about a 6/7/8sp chain being noisy in it.
> But any problem with that could be solved by adding washers to the jockey
> wheels or using a 9-speed chain with your 6-speed system (should work).
>
> Couple of minor points to be aware of with Xenon mech (which actually
> works as well as a Chorus!, IME):
>
> It's partly made of plastic -- this is no problem normally (and keeps the
> weight down), but I don't know how well it would stand a crash.
>
> Cage back plate corrodes easily. More of a cosmetic issue since the
> material is thick enough to last ages despite this corrosion.
>
> Comes in three versions: short, medium, long. Long will keep your options
> open.
>
>
>>New question: Is the "lock nut width" greater on hubs with more
>>sprockets or does the non-cassette part of the wheel reduce in width?
>>Translation - am I going to limited to the maximum number of sprockets
>>due to the width of the rear dropout or do the sprockets and chain
>>just get narrower?
>
>
> Sprockets, spacers and chain do get narrower, but 8, 9 and 10 speed road
> hubs are 130mm instead of your 126mm. Modern MTB hubs are 135mm for 8 and
> 9 speed. You'll probably be able to spring open your frame to take a
> 130mm hub.
>
>
>>Should I ever be able to find a compatible Campag downtube index
>>shifter
>>- David Martin has kindly pointed me at a source of Shimano ones - I
>>can index the Xenon if I want to?
>
>
> Indexing is a little more complicated with Campag than Shimano since
> Campag have messed about with their geometry and cable pull ratios.
>
> There's a slight index error when using 2001+ 9sp Campag rear mech with
> pre 2001 9sp shifters and vice versa, but this may not be enough to bother
> you. I'm not sure about mixing Campag 8 and 9-speed, though some limited
> experimentation I did left me with doubts about it.
>
> To keep things sure and simple, I suggest only getting a Campag mech if
> excluding the idea of Shimano indexed shifter.
>
> ~PB
>
>
Thanks. I won't try to mix indexed Shimano shifters and Campag mechs.
I'll probably start with a second-hand Campag mech off Ebay (Because I
want one) with my Shimano friction shifter and play around from there.

Julesh

 

[Julesh]

Dave Larrington wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Julesh
> ([email protected]) wrote:
>
>>David Martin wrote:
>
>
>>>You should be able to spring a frame over a 135mm hub, but it will be a
>>>pain. A 130 will go fine into a 126 rear triangle with a minor amount
>>>of effort. Cold setting the frame is pretty easy and also easy to foul
>>>up.
>>
>>Yes. I've read Sheldon's description of his method and its not for me!
>
>
> My old touring frame is 126; I managed to convert it to 7-speed by the
> insertion of a couple of fat washers - one either side of axle - to push
> the ends out a bit.
>
Woo Hoo! - The man's a genius - or I'm really stupid! I'm sitting
looking at my present 6-speed arrangement and thinking that there's not
a lot of gap between the freewheel and the frame - Washers - there's the
solution!
>
>
>>>Those should be quite nice as far as friction shifters go. To get
>>>indexed DT levers (which will be *far* cheaper than STI (combined
>>>brake/gear levers) try http://sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?cat84.htm
>>>for a selection or scour eBay.
>>>
>>>..d
>>
>>Thanks for that SJS seem to have what I need.
>
>
> I have a suspicion that I still have the Shimano DT shifters from the
> above bike (which is now my fixer) in a box in the shed. 7-speed, rear
> switchable between indexed and friction, front friction only. I shall
> try to remember to have a look tonight.
>