rear view helmet mirrors



J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 26 Apr 2007 19:43:17 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On 26 Apr 2007 11:55:49 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Apparently:
>> >(2) You saw [my post] but could not understand it,

>
>You have now demonstrated that to be the case.
>
>> >> Have you raced bikes
>> >> with some success (however you want to define it) with a mirror and
>> >> found it useful?

>
>Yes, and I gave examples.
>Try reading it again


Because I am so dense, can you please point it out more explicitly. I
really don't see it. When you do point it out, it will make me look
like a fool and I will have to apologize to you.

Please show me.

Thanks,


--
JT
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D

DirtRoadie

Guest
John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On 26 Apr 2007 19:43:17 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Yes, and I gave examples.
> >Try reading it again

>
> Because I am so dense, can you please point it out more explicitly. I
> really don't see it. When you do point it out, it will make me look
> like a fool and I will have to apologize to you.
>
> Please show me.


Cut and pasted from my earlier post:
" You're right, a mirror is useless in a time trial when (without
turning around) you can see whether you are gaining or losing ground
to the guy behind you. (Maybe he's just a club racer that you have a
friendly rivalry with). Yeah, I know, you just get splits by radio
from your DS in the team car. It's of no help at all in a small group
to see whether (good or bad) the guy behind is hanging on. Maybe
you're just trying to tow another rider back to a pack and you want to
go as hard as possible yet not drop the "towee." And in leading out a
sprint at speed, it is also generally preferable to turn one's head to
see who (teammate or opponent) might be on your wheel. Sorry, I don't
know what got into me in thinking a mirror could be useful in a racing
situation. Maybe I WILL win the TdF if I dump that stupid mirror right
now. "

There you have it. But I know better than to think you would actually
apologize.
But, yes, you are correct in noting that you like like a fool.

DR
 
?

_

Guest
On 27 Apr 2007 06:59:46 -0700, DirtRoadie wrote:

> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On 26 Apr 2007 19:43:17 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>Yes, and I gave examples.
>>>Try reading it again

>>
>> Because I am so dense, can you please point it out more explicitly. I
>> really don't see it. When you do point it out, it will make me look
>> like a fool and I will have to apologize to you.
>>
>> Please show me.

>
> Cut and pasted from my earlier post:
> " You're right, a mirror is useless in a time trial when (without
> turning around) you can see whether you are gaining or losing ground
> to the guy behind you. (Maybe he's just a club racer that you have a
> friendly rivalry with). Yeah, I know, you just get splits by radio
> from your DS in the team car. It's of no help at all in a small group
> to see whether (good or bad) the guy behind is hanging on. Maybe
> you're just trying to tow another rider back to a pack and you want to
> go as hard as possible yet not drop the "towee." And in leading out a
> sprint at speed, it is also generally preferable to turn one's head to
> see who (teammate or opponent) might be on your wheel. Sorry, I don't
> know what got into me in thinking a mirror could be useful in a racing
> situation. Maybe I WILL win the TdF if I dump that stupid mirror right
> now. "
>
> There you have it.


Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
could easily have stated the same thing.
 
D

DirtRoadie

Guest
_ wrote:
> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
> racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
> could easily have stated the same thing.


Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
begining of my post

"In my experience ..."
(which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)

I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in their
straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward hazards.
The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to look.
If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so choose.

DR
 
Dirt Roadie? snipes anonymously:

>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing
>> the racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of
>> the Tour could easily have stated the same thing.


> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
> begining of my post


> "In my experience ..."
> (which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)


In light f the discussions on civility, you could omit the pejorative
opinion below and say why you prefer to use a mirror.

> I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
> recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in
> their straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward
> hazards.



> The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
> other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
> coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to
> look. If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so
> choose.


This has been presented here often. So what's new?

Jobst Brandt
 
S

Sandy

Guest
Dans le message de news:[email protected],
[email protected] <[email protected]> a
réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> Dirt Roadie? snipes anonymously:
>
>>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing
>>> the racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of
>>> the Tour could easily have stated the same thing.

>
>> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
>> begining of my post

>
>> "In my experience ..."
>> (which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)

>
> In light f the discussions on civility, you could omit the pejorative
> opinion below and say why you prefer to use a mirror.
>
> > I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
> > recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in
> > their straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward
> > hazards.

>
>
>> The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
>> other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
>> coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to
>> look. If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so
>> choose.

>
> This has been presented here often. So what's new?
>
> Jobst Brandt


In light of _matters_ of civility, it is usually the species below ****
sapiens that strut into their territory and **** around to claim it.

In light of _matters_ of civility, brusquely trying to terminate a
conversation which others happily engaged in is considered rather brutish.

It ain't only your playground.
--
Sandy

The above is guaranteed 100% free of sarcasm,
denigration, snotty remarks, indifference, platitudes, fuming demands that
"you do the math", conceited visions of a better world on wheels according
to [insert NAME here].
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-04-27, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
> _ wrote:
>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
>> racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
>> could easily have stated the same thing.

>
> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
> begining of my post
>
> "In my experience ..."
> (which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)
>
> I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
> recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in their
> straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward hazards.
> The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
> other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
> coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to look.
> If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so choose.


I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home while
pretending not to.
 
K

Kristian M Zoerhoff

Guest
On 2007-04-27, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
> nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home while
> pretending not to.


*ding* We have a winner!

Yes, I've done this before (bows head in shame)...

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email protected]
(_)/ (_)
 
D

DirtRoadie

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> This has been presented here often. So what's new?


I had never been under the impression that "newness" was a group
requirement.
I thought this was a "discusssion" group.

DR
 
Ben C? writes:

>>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing
>>> the racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of
>>> the Tour could easily have stated the same thing.


>> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
>> begining of my post


>> "In my experience ..." (which I believe was implicit in the post
>> to begin with)


>> I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
>> recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in
>> their straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward
>> hazards. The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you
>> can. In other words, if you look in your mirror and see an
>> car/rider/etc coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need
>> to turn to look. If you see nothing you can still turn and look if
>> you so choose.


> I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
> nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home
> while pretending not to.


That is the way I most often experience the mirror routine. While
riding on a road with long visibility, I find myself catching up to a
lone rider on occasion and think to myself, this might be sociable
company. However, when I get withing 50 yards, I notice that I'm not
closing the gap anymore so I start looking for the mirror.

I am amazed how antisocial such riders can be and that they would
rather ride alone than exchange conversation with another person.
Fortunately, mirror racers are not the majority of reflective users.

Jobst Brandt
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-04-27, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C? writes:

[...]
>> I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
>> nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home
>> while pretending not to.

>
> That is the way I most often experience the mirror routine. While
> riding on a road with long visibility, I find myself catching up to a
> lone rider on occasion and think to myself, this might be sociable
> company. However, when I get withing 50 yards, I notice that I'm not
> closing the gap anymore so I start looking for the mirror.
>
> I am amazed how antisocial such riders can be and that they would
> rather ride alone than exchange conversation with another person.
> Fortunately, mirror racers are not the majority of reflective users.


Well if I get a mirror and I see you approaching in it I promise I'll
slow down and we can chew the fat for a few miles.
 
On 27 Apr 2007 21:44:08 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Ben C? writes:
>
>>>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing
>>>> the racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of
>>>> the Tour could easily have stated the same thing.

>
>>> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
>>> begining of my post

>
>>> "In my experience ..." (which I believe was implicit in the post
>>> to begin with)

>
>>> I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
>>> recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in
>>> their straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward
>>> hazards. The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you
>>> can. In other words, if you look in your mirror and see an
>>> car/rider/etc coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need
>>> to turn to look. If you see nothing you can still turn and look if
>>> you so choose.

>
>> I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
>> nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home
>> while pretending not to.

>
>That is the way I most often experience the mirror routine. While
>riding on a road with long visibility, I find myself catching up to a
>lone rider on occasion and think to myself, this might be sociable
>company. However, when I get withing 50 yards, I notice that I'm not
>closing the gap anymore so I start looking for the mirror.
>
>I am amazed how antisocial such riders can be and that they would
>rather ride alone than exchange conversation with another person.
>Fortunately, mirror racers are not the majority of reflective users.
>
>Jobst Brandt


Dear Jobst,

A hitherto unknown version of a well-known tale was waiting in my
post-box when I returned this afternoon from a long journey to the
still-snowy northern reaches of Colorado.

Those unfamiliar with the story may google for "foul bauble of man's
vanity."

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

I had stopped by the roadside just before dawn with a flat tire and
adjusted my bicycle mirror to reflect the streetlight's rays on my
work.

I was just beginning to shave the seam off a punctured inner tube with
a sharp flint, preparatory to patching it.

Suddenly I felt a hand on my shoulder, and heard Count B-----'s voice
saying to me, "Good morning." I started, for it amazed me that I had
not seen him, since the reflection of the bicycle mirror covered the
road behind me.

In starting I had cut my inner tube slightly again, but did not notice
it at the moment.

Having answered the Count's salutation, I turned to the bicycle mirror
again to see how I had been mistaken. This time there could be no
error, for the man was close to me, and I could see him over my
shoulder. But there was no reflection of him in the mirror! The whole
road behind me was displayed, but there was no sign of a man in it,
except myself.

This was startling, and coming on the top of so many strange things,
was beginning to increase that vague feeling of uneasiness which I
always have when the Count is near.

But at that instant I saw the cut had bled a little green Slime, and
the Slime was trickling over my inner tube. I laid down my sharp piece
of flint, turning as I did so half round to look for a Rema patch.

When the Count saw my cut inner tube leaking Slime, his eyes blazed
with a sort of demoniac fury, and he suddenly made a grab at my Presta
valve.

I drew away and his hand touched the goathead that I had extracted
from the tire and laid next to the inner tube.

It made an instant change in him, for the fury passed so quickly that
I could hardly believe that it was ever there.

"Take care," he said, "take care how you cut yourself. It is more
dangerous that you think in this country."

Then seizing my bicycle mirror, he went on, "And this is the wretched
thing that has done the mischief. It is a foul bauble of man's vanity.
Away with it!"

And with one wrench of his terrible hand, he tore my bicycle mirror
off the handlebar and flung it over the bluff, where it shattered into
a thousand pieces on the stones of the Arkansas River far below.

It is very annoying, for I do not see how I am to be aware of
overtaking motor-carriages, unless it is near dusk and their
headlights reflect in my front rim, which is fortunately of metal.

Jonathan Harker
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 27 Apr 2007 06:59:46 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> On 26 Apr 2007 19:43:17 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >Yes, and I gave examples.
>> >Try reading it again

>>
>> Because I am so dense, can you please point it out more explicitly. I
>> really don't see it. When you do point it out, it will make me look
>> like a fool and I will have to apologize to you.
>>
>> Please show me.

>
>Cut and pasted from my earlier post:
>" You're right, a mirror is useless in a time trial when (without
>turning around) you can see whether you are gaining or losing ground
>to the guy behind you. (Maybe he's just a club racer that you have a
>friendly rivalry with). Yeah, I know, you just get splits by radio
>from your DS in the team car. It's of no help at all in a small group
>to see whether (good or bad) the guy behind is hanging on. Maybe
>you're just trying to tow another rider back to a pack and you want to
>go as hard as possible yet not drop the "towee." And in leading out a
>sprint at speed, it is also generally preferable to turn one's head to
>see who (teammate or opponent) might be on your wheel. Sorry, I don't
>know what got into me in thinking a mirror could be useful in a racing
>situation. Maybe I WILL win the TdF if I dump that stupid mirror right
>now. "
>
>There you have it. But I know better than to think you would actually
>apologize.
>But, yes, you are correct in noting that you like like a fool.


I'm sorry, but I don't see you answering the question I asked, which
is what evidence do you have, such as personal experience in a race
with a mirror, or observing someone in a race with a mirror?

It's not clear to me if the comments above are from actual racing with
a mirror.

If your comments above are not speculation but instead based on your
own experience in a race with a mirror, or experience of someone you
advised with a mirror, than I apologize for misinterpreting what you
wrote.

But if not, it's just speculation.

Which is it?

--
JT
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J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On 27 Apr 2007 12:36:22 -0700, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:

>_ wrote:
>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
>> racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
>> could easily have stated the same thing.

>
>Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
>begining of my post
>
>"In my experience ..."
>(which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)



I don't understand: have you ever raced bikes yourself or is your
experience confined to watching bike races?
--
JT
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J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Fri, 27 Apr 2007 15:14:24 -0500, Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2007-04-27, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
>> _ wrote:
>>> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
>>> racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
>>> could easily have stated the same thing.

>>
>> Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
>> begining of my post
>>
>> "In my experience ..."
>> (which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)
>>
>> I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
>> recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in their
>> straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward hazards.
>> The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
>> other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
>> coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to look.
>> If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so choose.

>
>I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
>nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home while
>pretending not to.


LOL. Been there, done that. Though on training rides more than
commuting.
--
JT
****************************
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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M

Michael Press

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2007-04-27, DirtRoadie <[email protected]> wrote:
> > _ wrote:
> >> Um, nowhere in the above does it actually say that *you* are doing the
> >> racing - someone with quadriplegia and television coverage of the Tour
> >> could easily have stated the same thing.

> >
> > Yes. Of course. For the record, please add the following at the
> > begining of my post
> >
> > "In my experience ..."
> > (which I believe was implicit in the post to begin with)
> >
> > I might also add that while riding (not racing) the other day I
> > recognized a benefit that the mirror naysayers totally ignore in their
> > straw arguments regarding an inability to see all rearward hazards.
> > The issue is not so much what you can't see but what you can. In
> > other words, if you look in your mirror and see an car/rider/etc
> > coming from the rear you have saved yourself the need to turn to look.
> > If you see nothing you can still turn and look if you so choose.

>
> I think a mirror would be useful for preserving the air of studied
> nonchalance necessary when racing other commuters on the way home while
> pretending not to.


Everybody is welcome to pass me, but please stay there, unlike the
recumbent tandem that pulled ahead of me at at traffic stop, then
proceeded at a leisurely 10 mph on a very slight downhill city
street while I encouraged the captain with remarks like "Let's
pick it up, eh." and "While we're young." as he clankety clanked
up through the gears like an articulated
diesel-tractor-double-trailer hauling two huge spools of sheet
steel, clankety-clankety-clankety for two city blocks before he
turned onto a side street.

Now somebody is going to ask why I did not pass. A: Because of all
the car traffic overtaking us from the traffic stop.

--
Michael Press
 
D

DirtRoadie

Guest
DirtRoadie wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > This has been presented here often. So what's new?

>
> I had never been under the impression that "newness" was a group
> requirement.
> I thought this was a "discusssion" group.


Rather than allow someone else to take advantage of the clear opeining
- I was wrong - this IS a NEWSgroup.

DR
 
WHATS NEW DEPT.

confesing to limited cycle racing knowledge spread thinly over a tech
design awareness, I watched East Jesus to Brasstown Bald, a road i
know, on the online video (noooooooo teevee) and the finish laps in
Ratown.
"frankly", I was surprised at the "looking backwards" as a waste of
energy.
Tomlinson "not withstanding" you move ahead, watch out in the
peripheral vision so you don't you don't you don't without any other
help ram the guy coming up ON the side. And everyone else better damn
surewatch out for themselves caws YOU could care &*&^%$#$!!! less what
goes on behind you.

So, I thought my error off course one of the Tech math wizard's would
quicly figure how many "look backs" say Coleman or Moose did to
Brasstown, figure ebnergy losses and report back errrrr forward.
carbon-carbon wise!

Like dude, with all the filing of parts going on down at the wind
tunnel, here's your baboon pedaling his brains out then hanging a
drogue chute out every so often.
 
On Apr 28, 5:43 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> WHATS NEW DEPT.
>
> confesing to limited cycle racing knowledge spread thinly over a tech
> design awareness, I watched East Jesus to Brasstown Bald, a road i
> know, on the online video (noooooooo teevee) and the finish laps in
> Ratown.
> "frankly", I was surprised at the "looking backwards" as a waste of
> energy.
> Tomlinson "not withstanding" you move ahead, watch out in the
> peripheral vision so you don't you don't you don't without any other
> help ram the guy coming up ON the side. And everyone else better damn
> surewatch out for themselves caws YOU could care &*&^%$#$!!! less what
> goes on behind you.
>
> So, I thought my error off course one of the Tech math wizard's would
> quicly figure how many "look backs" say Coleman or Moose did to
> Brasstown, figure ebnergy losses and report back errrrr forward.
> carbon-carbon wise!
>
> Like dude, with all the filing of parts going on down at the wind
> tunnel, here's your baboon pedaling his brains out then hanging a
> drogue chute out every so often.


This makes good technical sense to me.

ISTR lots of discussion about LeMond's miracle 8-second TDF win over
Fignon, pointing out that LeMond stayed aero in that final time trial,
while Fignon wasted energy by sitting up, standing up, letting his
pony tail flap, etc. Supposedly, if Fignon had been as aero-
disciplined as LeMond, Fignon would have won.

It matters more in some circumstances (fast time trials) than others
(slow hill climbs), but when you're moving quickly through the wind,
"drag chute" is a good description of cranking one's head around to
look over the shoulder.

- Frank Krygowski
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
DirtRoadie,

I realize you never answered the question of whether or not you've
used a rear view helmet mirror with any sort of success in a bike
race. In fact, you haven't said if you've ever raced bike at all.
Now, if you think that is irrelevant to your determing whether or not
a mirror would be useful when racing, you can make that argument.

But considering that you've sorta implied you've raced but not
actually said so, I think you're hiding something.

Can you clear things up -- have you ever been in a bike race?
--
JT
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