Rear wheel off center

[Per Elmsäter]

I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame from
2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame is
built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off centered at least
4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear fork was squeezed together
evenly it would still be centered, but no way. The owner says he never
noticed nor thought about it. I have a hard time believing this would not be
felt in the handling of the bike or at least uneven wear on the tires maybe.
Of course being a TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal roadbike.

What do you all think.
Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?
Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that easy on a
disc wheel.
Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the rear
fork if necessary?
Or... Should I stay away from this deal?

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Philip Holman]

"Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
> from
> 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
> threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame
> is
> built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off centered at
> least
> 4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear fork was squeezed
> together
> evenly it would still be centered, but no way. The owner says he never
> noticed nor thought about it. I have a hard time believing this would
> not be
> felt in the handling of the bike or at least uneven wear on the tires
> maybe.
> Of course being a TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal
> roadbike.
>
> What do you all think.
> Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?
> Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that
> easy on a
> disc wheel.
> Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the
> rear
> fork if necessary?
> Or... Should I stay away from this deal?

The wheel could be off which is easy to check by installing it backwards
with the cogset on the left. If it is still off in the same direction
then its the frame. I personally don't recommend putting a 130 wheel
into a 126 frame and re-spacing or realigning an aluminum frame is not
recommended either.

Phil H

 

[A Muzi]

Per Elmsäter wrote:

> I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame from
> 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
> threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame is
> built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off centered at least
> 4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear fork was squeezed together
> evenly it would still be centered, but no way. The owner says he never
> noticed nor thought about it. I have a hard time believing this would not be
> felt in the handling of the bike or at least uneven wear on the tires maybe.
> Of course being a TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal roadbike.
>
> What do you all think.
> Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?
> Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that easy on a
> disc wheel.
> Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the rear
> fork if necessary?
> Or... Should I stay away from this deal?
>
You could buy a longer axle (note: 10f26, not m10x1) and add
spacers evenly on both sides to achieve 130mm. The wheel
can remain centered over the locknuts ('dished'). BUT that
exacerbates the #1 drawback to freewheel wheels, bending the
unsupported right side of the axle. If you're light and
using this as an event wheel it would be a reasonable fix.
See if that frame is still straight with the wheel out.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Per Elmsäter]

Philip Holman wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
>> from
>> 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
>> threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame
>> is
>> built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off centered at
>> least
>> 4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear fork was squeezed
>> together
>> evenly it would still be centered, but no way. The owner says he
>> never noticed nor thought about it. I have a hard time believing
>> this would not be
>> felt in the handling of the bike or at least uneven wear on the tires
>> maybe.
>> Of course being a TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal
>> roadbike.
>>
>> What do you all think.
>> Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?
>> Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that
>> easy on a
>> disc wheel.
>> Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the
>> rear
>> fork if necessary?
>> Or... Should I stay away from this deal?
>
> The wheel could be off which is easy to check by installing it
> backwards with the cogset on the left. If it is still off in the same
> direction then its the frame.

Good idea. Why didn't I think of that I was planning on bringing my
truing stand over.

> I personally don't recommend putting a
> 130 wheel into a 126 frame and re-spacing or realigning an aluminum
> frame is not recommended either.
>
> Phil H

It's the other way around. A 126 wheel in a 130 frame. Does that make it any
different?

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Per Elmsäter]

A Muzi wrote:
> Per Elmsäter wrote:
>
>> I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
>> from 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six
>> speed threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the
>> frame is built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off
>> centered at least 4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear
>> fork was squeezed together evenly it would still be centered, but no
>> way. The owner says he never noticed nor thought about it. I have a
>> hard time believing this would not be felt in the handling of the
>> bike or at least uneven wear on the tires maybe. Of course being a
>> TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal roadbike.
>>
>> What do you all think.
>> Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?
>> Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that
>> easy on a disc wheel.
>> Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the
>> rear fork if necessary?
>> Or... Should I stay away from this deal?
>>
> You could buy a longer axle (note: 10f26, not m10x1) and add
> spacers evenly on both sides to achieve 130 mm.

I can't make heads or tails out of those numbers 10f26? Is that what a
normal rear axle is called?

> The wheel
> can remain centered over the locknuts ('dished'). BUT that
> exacerbates the #1 drawback to freewheel wheels, bending the
> unsupported right side of the axle. If you're light and
> using this as an event wheel it would be a reasonable fix.

I weigh 170 lbs. Is that light or heavy in this particular case? Yes of
course it's an event wheel, which brings up the next issue. I'm going to
have to build a new six speed training wheel for this bike unless I want to
switch my bar end shifter every time also.

> See if that frame is still straight with the wheel out.

Yes I was planning on wrapping string around it per Sheldon's advice and
measuring the frame in different places.
Would you know if it is possible to upgrade this wheel to anything higher
than a seven speed?
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[James Thomson]

> > You could buy a longer axle (note: 10f26, not m10x1) and
> > add spacers evenly on both sides to achieve 130 mm.

"Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I can't make heads or tails out of those numbers 10f26? Is
> that what a normal rear axle is called?

Italian threads often use metric diameters with imperial thread pitch.
10f26 (the classic Campagnolo rear axle thread) refers to a diameter of
10mm with 26 threads per inch.

M10x1 - 10mm diameter and 1mm pitch (25.4 threads per inch) is a more
common axle thread.

James Thomson

 

[Per Elmsäter]

What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear wheel that
is 4-6 mm off center to the left?
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

per-<< I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
from
2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame is
built with a 130 mm spacing. >><BR><BR>

You can move spacers around to get the disc centered, dished, then add 2mm to
each side of the disc axle...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Werehatrack]

On Wed, 2 Feb 2005 23:08:43 +0100, "Per Elmsäter"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>What do you all think.
>Can this have left any misalignments in the frame?

Easily checked, all you need is a long piece of string.

>Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that easy on a
>disc wheel.

Maybe. If it uses a regular threaded axle, replace the axle with one
that's the required length to fit the frame, and add spacers to the
side where they're needed. If it has a shouldered axle (used with
some cartridge-bearing hubs) you'll have problems doing that. Before
getting too carried away, check to see if there are spacers present
now which, if rearranged, would get the wheel back on center without
putting the freewheel or chain into the stays.

>Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the rear
>fork if necessary?

Well, opinions vary about the advisability of bending the rear
triangles on an aluminum bike. First, measure the dropout spacing; if
it's close to 130mm, check the alignment, and if the frame's straight,
drop in an 8 or 9 speed rear wheel and go.

>Or... Should I stay away from this deal?

It all boils down to the cost of acquisition versus how much tinkering
you want to do and how much you don't want to spend (in time and
money) to get it squared away.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:13:05 +0100, "Per Elmsäter"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>It's the other way around. A 126 wheel in a 130 frame. Does that make it any
>different?

If it's a 130 frame, swapping to an 8 or 9 speed wheel seems like the
prudent move, no? Check to make sure it's straight first.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:43:48 +0100, "Per Elmsäter"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear wheel that
>is 4-6 mm off center to the left?

The nagging feeling that something's not right, the continual (small)
lateral stress on the stays, and (of course) the derisive snickering
of all those around you because you're riding a bike that's got such a
glaringly obvious shortcoming. (The latter issue, of course,
articulated only with some difficulty, due to presence of tongue in
cheek.)

It sounds very much like the bike's current owner got a killer deal on
a disk wheel that was for an older frame, and just dropped it in to
his because it was a Neat Thing. With a little fiddling, I suspect
that all can be set right.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[RonSonic]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:43:48 +0100, "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear wheel that
>is 4-6 mm off center to the left?

It'll be a little less stable, particularly sitting up with your hands off the
bars. You may actually notice, or not depending on how solid a rider you are and
how squirrelly this bike and your previous bikes otherwise are.

My money is that you don't actually notice the effect of the off-centeredness -
but the psychological effect of knowing that it's there could be crippling.

Ron

 

[Per Elmsäter]

Werehatrack wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Feb 2005 09:43:48 +0100, "Per Elmsäter"
> <[email protected]> may have said:
>
>> What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear
>> wheel that is 4-6 mm off center to the left?
>
> The nagging feeling that something's not right, the continual (small)
> lateral stress on the stays, and (of course) the derisive snickering
> of all those around you because you're riding a bike that's got such a
> glaringly obvious shortcoming. (The latter issue, of course,
> articulated only with some difficulty, due to presence of tongue in
> cheek.)
>
> It sounds very much like the bike's current owner got a killer deal on
> a disk wheel that was for an older frame, and just dropped it in to
> his because it was a Neat Thing. With a little fiddling, I suspect
> that all can be set right.

It was more like he's been riding TTs for the last 30 years and when he
bought a new frame a couple of years ago he moved everything from his old
frame without thinking to much about it. He was still doing sub 45 minutes
on 30 k TTs

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Per Elmsäter]

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> per-<< I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum
> frame from
> 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six speed
> threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the frame
> is built with a 130 mm spacing. >><BR><BR>
>
> You can move spacers around to get the disc centered, dished, then
> add 2mm to each side of the disc axle...
>

Thanks.
I take it you mean there are existing spacers on the wheel that can be moved
to redish the disc. Then I add my 2 mm on each side.
That would be really cool if I could keep the wheel. It's painted Yellow to
match the Bianchi green and yellow and looks really cool. Being my first
year doing TTs I'm sure the bike will be fast enough for me and I could put
some money into getting a really good frontwheel instead. Also I would
finally have an all Campagnolo bike
I guess I'd have to build a six speed training wheel but this can
probably be found in some closet also.

--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Per Elmsäter wrote:

>>>I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
>>>from 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six
>>>speed threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the
>>>frame is built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off
>>>centered at least 4-6 mm off to the left. You'd think if the rear
>>>fork was squeezed together evenly it would still be centered, but no
>>>way. The owner says he never noticed nor thought about it. I have a
>>>hard time believing this would not be felt in the handling of the
>>>bike or at least uneven wear on the tires maybe. Of course being a
>>>TT bike it doesn't travel as much as a normal roadbike.
>>>
>>>Is there any way I can center the wheel? Re-dishing isn't all that
>>>easy on a disc wheel.
>>>Can I safely exchange it for a modern 9 speed wheel and realign the
>>>rear fork if necessary?
>>>Or... Should I stay away from this deal?

Depends how cheap it is.

Andy Muzi wrote:

>>You could buy a longer axle (note: 10f26, not m10x1) and add
>>spacers evenly on both sides to achieve 130 mm.
>
Per was perplexed:
>
> I can't make heads or tails out of those numbers 10f26? Is that whata
> normal rear axle is called?
>
Andy is using shorthand to describe the threading on the axle. It is 10
mm in diameter, like most rear axles, but has a non-standard thread
pitch: 26 TPI (threads per inch.) (Italian threading is a wierd mismash
of units, commonly using metric diameters with inch-based thread pitch.)

Most axles are 1 thread per millimeter, which works out to 25.4 threads
per inch. Close, but no cigar!

We offer suitable axles, see:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/hub-parts.html#axles

>>The wheel
>>can remain centered over the locknuts ('dished'). BUT that
>>exacerbates the #1 drawback to freewheel wheels, bending the
>>unsupported right side of the axle. If you're light and
>>using this as an event wheel it would be a reasonable fix.

Per says the wheel is off to the left. This would be corrected by
adding spacers to the left side of the axle, not adding to this problem.

I'm suspicious that this might have originally been a 130 wheel, that a
previous owner re-spaced to 126. If so, bringing it back to 130 should
be duck soup.

> What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear
wheel > that is 4-6 mm off center to the left?

Surprisingly little. You'd probably need to lean a bit to one side to
ride it no-hands. You might not even notice it.

Sheldon "Spacers" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision sees |
| things as they are, not as they ought to be. |
| --Ambrose Bierce |
+--------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Per Elmsäter]

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> Per Elmsäter wrote:
>
>>>> Or... Should I stay away from this deal?
>
> Depends how cheap it is.
>

I pay less for the whole bike than a new HED disc. With a three year old
frame I feel this is a good starting out deal. I'll most probably just start
out by buying a good front wheel and then add things as time goes.

> We offer suitable axles, see:
>
> http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/hub-parts.html#axles
>

Fantastic. I even figured out which article you mean by the very fine
descriptions above.
You seem to call it HU8250
I take it then that I can get any 10 mm washers, stainless preferably or...

> I'm suspicious that this might have originally been a 130 wheel, that
> a previous owner re-spaced to 126. If so, bringing it back to 130
> should be duck soup.
>

Now that would be really cool.

> > What would the consequences be of continuing to ride with a rear
> wheel > that is 4-6 mm off center to the left?
>
> Surprisingly little. You'd probably need to lean a bit to one side to
> ride it no-hands. You might not even notice it.
>

Well the original owner never noticed so this is probably so
--
Perre
I gave up on SPAM and redirected it to hotmail instead.

 

[A Muzi]

Per Elmsäter wrote:

> A Muzi wrote:
>
>>Per Elmsäter wrote:
>>>I'm looking into buying a used TT bike with a Bianchi Aluminum frame
>>>from 2001 and a Campagnolo disc wheel from way back when. It's a six
>>>speed threaded freewheel. This is of course only 126 mm wide and the
>>>frame is built with a 130 mm spacing. Hence the rear wheel is off
>>>centered at least 4-6 mm off to the left.
-snip-

I hastily threw out a bunch of jargon:
>>You could buy a longer axle (note: 10f26, not m10x1) and add
>>spacers evenly on both sides to achieve 130 mm.

Patiently, Per Elmsäter wrote:
> I can't make heads or tails out of those numbers 10f26? Is that what a
> normal rear axle is called?
-snip-
> Would you know if it is possible to upgrade this wheel to anything higher
> than a seven speed?

I'm very sorry.
Before 2000, Campagnolo axles were 10mm diameter but 26
threads per inch, the thread form was 55 degrees.
(Comparable spec to Italian frame threads which are 36mm
diameter but 24 threads per inch and also 55 degrees.)
After 2000, Campagnolo finally changed to a standard metric
thread 10mm diameter and 1.0 pitch at a very normal ISO
sixty degrees. Campagnolo's rear changer mounting bolt, same
thread, also changed that year

I mentioned the thread spec because a Shimano axle or indeed
the greater bulk of long replacement axles you'll find will
be metric and the Campagnolo cones won't thread.

There are excellent aftermarket axles by Wheels and of
course Campagnolo spares are readily available.

"m10x1" is the standard nomenclature for a metric thread.
"10f26" is how Campagnolo taps are marked.

Unlike a spoked wheel , when you change from six to seven,
you'll add spacing on both sides equally to keep the rim
centered over the locknuts. (As another writer suggested,
flip the wheel over in the frame to check that) I don't
think you can do this beyond seven, as the overall width
will likely climb past 130mm.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971