Reccomend a bike - commuting, shopping, city use.



Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Peter
Clinch <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>David E. Belcher wrote:


>[weight]
>> Depends where you live, mind.


>Even if you're in NL then a light bike is easier to manhandle than a
>heavy one and will accelerate better.


>Not an insurmountable problem, as I know owning a couple of 20 Kg
>bikes, but if all else is equal (in those two cases all else isn't...)
>lighter is better.


As I've no real concept of weights, how much does the average
bog-standard 100-200 quid non-suspension MTB weigh once you add
mudguards? That's what I used to have, so want to compare.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>
 
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as John B
<[email protected]> gently breathed:

>I would recommend taking a look at their very informative website;
>http://www.marin.co.uk/marin-2005/index.php


Nice site, and nice bikes, thanks! Though I never will understand why
you should have to specify mudguards and racks as extras on a bike aimed
at commuters. Will bear them in mind though, they look very good for
the price.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>
 
Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Simon
Brooke <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>in message <[email protected]>, Pyromancer
>('[email protected]') wrote:


>> I like the Ridgeback (well, I did after I'd done mighty battle with
>> their site to get some info on it - what is it with bike shops and
>> unusably bad websites?)


>Yes, I planned to post the URL for you, but when I found it I gave up in
>dismay. It is /unutterably/ ****, isn't it?


Really was one of the worst I'd seen. That's the first time I've had a
site I wanted to use really get in the way.

>Edinburgh Bicycle Co-op are
>just as bad, and they've been told and told and told and just don't
>care.


There's a lot I don't mind in websites, and fixed-width design is
pretty-much inevitable from anyone who really cares about graphic style,
no matter how much purists object. But that Ridgeback site was just
moronic stupidity, no excuse at all. It didn't even look all that good,
the far more usable Marin one was much better, while still very stylish.

Nice bike though. Definitely going to have to do some test rides The
company have said that the cyclescheme thing is possibly a goer, but I'm
thinking I might get a 25 quid second hand full-sus MTB that's for sale
off a mate for the meantime, and to have as a spare, and take my time
picking my proper bike carefully. Whatever I buy now I want to still be
riding in 10 years time, hopefully a lot leaner and fitter!

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>
 
Pyromancer wrote:

> It's about one mile each way, and it's downhill all the way there. And
> while it's a hill to me I suspect many of the serious cyclists
> hereabouts would probably regard it as flat! :)


A Dutch bike, as long as the gearing takes into account that it is /not/
as flat as Amsterdam, should be fine for this. A Galaxy is a more
versatile bike that will row with you into touring etc. as well, but it
will need more maintenance on an ongoing basis than a Dutch bike.

> Regarding the gearing on the Dutch bikes - I assume you get 3, 5 or 7 in
> the hub


In the NL it's quite common to just get a single speed because things
really /are/ flat apart from the bridges in a lot of places, but they're
certainly available with 3 -> 8 in internal hubs.

> and then when there's a 3 chainring derailleur that gives you
> the 24 or whatever.


No. Dutch bikes have full chain cases, which don't really work very
well with derailleurs. On the plus side it means the chain maintenance
consists of forgetting about it for most of the time.

> What are the hub gear ratios like?


Depends on the model of hub itself. But the 3 speed on my Brompton is
okay for me to ride around Dundee which isn't short of hills. Not
/optimally/ at all times, but reasonably without ridiculous contrivance.

> Is it like a 21
> speed normal set but with much bigger gaps between the ratios, or are
> the ratios closer together?


Bit of both, but note a "21 speed" has more like 12 useful gears because
of the overlap between different speeds. There's no point riding the
small chainwheel with the small sprocket, you'll get an equivalent
ration elsewhere and the chain will be straighter while you do it.

> I noticed that on my old bike I really only ever used the largest,
> middle, and smallest gears at the back, plus the three at the front, so
> although it was actually a 21 I really used it like a 9 (or perhaps 7,
> as I tried to avoid the "diagonal chain" thing).


The back generally changes more evenly so it's better to be shifting
there than at the front. Also the case that rear shifts are generally
to closer rations. The point of gears is to allow the engine to keep
revving close to its sweet spot, so try and keep a fairly uniform
cadence of the pedal cranks by changing down as the speed drops off or
changing up as speed increases. Typical change scheme on a 21 is
small/7, s/6, s/5, middle/5, m/4, m/3, small/3, s/2, s/1.

On a rear hub it's simple, start at one end and work to the other.

Another gear system is the Dualdrive, where a rear derailleur cassette
sits on a hub so rather than front chainwheel changes you do the big
shifts in the hub. The nice thing about this is a bit less chain wear
and no worry about diagonal chain lines, and you can do big shifts
standing still, like at traffic lights.

> I suppose really it's the lower ratios I really need - don't want to
> have to get off and push up the steep hill by the Fforde Green when
> coming back from Tesco fully loaded!


Find out what the actual gear is. 30" gear is low enough for most
things in an urban context (i.e., not doing 50 miles a day as well as
big hills with full touring load), but a little lower will get that
heavy shopping up the braes even better.

> I've looked at the Gazelles and like what I see, though I'll have to try
> one before deciding though, guess I'll be popping over to York for a
> test ride at some point. I do like the idea of a hub dynamo and built
> in locks, and of bikes built to last for decades.


Hub dynamos are /highly/ recommended here. Wondrous things. Can be
retrofitted to a Galaxy too, of course. Built in locks don't actually
the lock bike *to* anything, so your insurers won't be impressed if
someone just picks it up and pops it in the back of a van. The weight
of a full on Dutch bike is some proof against this, as is their lack of
sporty street cred, but don't rely on that for more than quick visits to
shops from where you can see the bike the /whole time/ you're in.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Peter Clinch wrote:


> Bit of both, but note a "21 speed" has more like 12 useful gears


Make that "more like 9"...

> Typical change scheme on a 21 is
> small/7, s/6, s/5, middle/5, m/4, m/3, small/3, s/2, s/1.


Make the first 3 "large".

Deary me...

I think the rest is okay though!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
in message <[email protected]>, Pyromancer
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Peter
> Clinch <[email protected]> gently breathed:
>>David E. Belcher wrote:

>
>>[weight]
>>> Depends where you live, mind.

>
>>Even if you're in NL then a light bike is easier to manhandle than a
>>heavy one and will accelerate better.

>
>>Not an insurmountable problem, as I know owning a couple of 20 Kg
>>bikes, but if all else is equal (in those two cases all else isn't...)
>>lighter is better.

>
> As I've no real concept of weights, how much does the average
> bog-standard 100-200 quid non-suspension MTB weigh once you add
> mudguards? That's what I used to have, so want to compare.


Bog standard - i.e. with no fancy ultra-light parts, no suspension at
all, between about 12 and about 15Kg. Other things being equal, 12Kg
is /a/ /lot/ nicer to ride than 15. A bit higher up the price curve
you'll get under 10Kg, and that's nicer still.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those
who are now possible remain possible -- Michael Bakunin
 
> As I've no real concept of weights, how much does the average
> bog-standard 100-200 quid non-suspension MTB weigh once you add
> mudguards? That's what I used to have, so want to compare.


Mine weighed 14ish kg. As a comparison my (cheap chromoly framed) road bike
(drop bar racing bike) is 12kg[1], my nice road bike is 8kg.

To put that ito context I weigh about 80kg, but I really notice the extra
weight of the heavier bike when climbing or accelerating. When up to speed
it's the air and rolling resistence that you notice, as well as the poorly
maintained drivetrain.

Weight is only a factor on uphills and fast accelerations. If you're a
trundly[2] you can pretty well ignore the weight of the bike and move the
focus to comfort, like good suspension or a built in mini bar.



[1] Tho it's been disguised as a tourer with guards and rack.
[2] around 12mph or less, no sweating unless it's height of summer or evil
hill.
 
"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> Bit of both, but note a "21 speed" has more like 12 useful gears

>
> Make that "more like 9"...


Mine had 16.

>> Typical change scheme on a 21 is small/7, s/6, s/5, middle/5, m/4, m/3,
>> small/3, s/2, s/1.

>
> Make the first 3 "large".


Granny 76543 Middle 765432 Large 54321

Is a sequential set on what I had.

I did of course cheat by having a close ratio block...

cheers,
clive
 
Mark Thompson wrote:

> Weight is only a factor on uphills and fast accelerations. If you're a
> trundly[2] you can pretty well ignore the weight of the bike and move the
> focus to comfort, like good suspension or a built in mini bar.


Good suspension designed for roads on a roadgoing bike is relatively
rare. But on a Dutch bike, with all your weight on the seat and none on
your arms, a decent suspension seatpost is really all it needs for
getting about in comfort, plus a good saddle, of course.

For the built-in minibar, an insulated bar-bag would be just the thing.
Bar bags are the easiest places to put small items and if you're
filling up with shopping can help balance rear panniers. For more
serious shopping loads a trailer is worth considering.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Clive George wrote:

> I did of course cheat by having a close ratio block...


And that'll work well, of course, but would tend not to be standard
equipment on your average £400 hybrid, is my guess.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Mark Thompson wrote:

<snip detailed info - thanks!>

> [2] around 12mph or less, no sweating unless it's height of summer or evil
> hill.


[2] is definetly me! :) I'm no kind of athlete, and while I've really
enjoyed reading some of the competitive ride reports that get posted
here, it's in the same way I really enjoy reading war stories set on
ships - I've no more desire to ride competitively than I have to be
torpedoed in the middle of the North Atlantic.

The one problem might be that my current "bike shed" involves going
down a steep and narrow set of 5 steps and into a rather small brick
boxroom. I'm thinking that perhaps I should get a shed for the front
yard (it's a back-to-back so no back garden), and make it big enough
that I can store both the town bike, and also the 'bent I plan to one
day obtain (which will of course be somewhat faster for longer "out of
town" rides).

Someone a couple of streets down has a largeish galvanised steel shed
out front, one of those would be ideal.
 
Pyromancer a écrit :

> As I've no real concept of weights, how much does the average
> bog-standard 100-200 quid non-suspension MTB weigh once you add
> mudguards? That's what I used to have, so want to compare.



For further comparison since you asked, my Dutch bike (aluminum frame)
weighs in at about 22 kg, fully fitted with all the options.

EFR
Ile de France
 
Pyromancer a écrit :


> Regarding the gearing on the Dutch bikes - I assume you get 3, 5 or 7 in
> the hub, and then when there's a 3 chainring derailleur that gives you
> the 24 or whatever. What are the hub gear ratios like? Is it like a 21
> speed normal set but with much bigger gaps between the ratios, or are
> the ratios closer together?


I'm once again not answering your question directly, but what really
sold my Dutch bike to me, and one thing that I really do still like
about her, is the Nexus 7 hub-shifter, particularly suited to the kind
of terrain you describe (i.e. changes of elevation compounded by a lot
of stop-start in traffic). The advantage is to be able to change gear at
a standstill. You will find that there is _always_ a light at the bottom
of the hill and it will always just pass to red as you approach at max
speed trying to make it through. No fun to find yourself in max gear
with a great uphill sweep ahead of you. Before Behemoth I kept having to
walk all the uphills!

However, automatic hub-shifters like the Nexus are not indissociable
from heavy bikes.

EFR
Ile de France
 
Elisa Francesca Roselli wrote:

> However, automatic hub-shifters like the Nexus are not indissociable
> from heavy bikes.


You can get automatic shifters, but the Nexus as described isn't one of
them. The automatics I've come across are 4 speed, and do a reasonable
job of deciding when to shift, but unless you really are Certificate
Clueless when it comes to gears or you have a lack of suitable
appendages to move a shifter, I can't really see that much point.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Pyromancer wrote:

> The one problem might be that my current "bike shed" involves going
> down a steep and narrow set of 5 steps and into a rather small brick
> boxroom.


A 20 Kg bike is less fun on these than a 10 Kg one for obvious reasons,
but it isn't /too/ bad and the two I do similar moves with are awkward
shapes and sizes too. If you're for some reason rather weaker than
average about the arms it's a possible issue, but not really /that/ much
of one otherwise. You get to choose, a few seconds heavy lifting, or a
few seconds oiling and cleaning transmissions... ;-/

> that I can store both the town bike, and also the 'bent I plan to one
> day obtain (which will of course be somewhat faster for longer "out of
> town" rides).


Don't assume that. Many 'bents aren't anything special in the speed
department. As with uprights, it'll depend on the design and
implementation.

> Someone a couple of streets down has a largeish galvanised steel shed
> out front, one of those would be ideal.


You can also get secure bike lockers for gardens/yards, typically
looking like overgrown chest freezers with end or side entrances. Might
be cheaper than a full shed (but you're unlikely to get a 'bent in one,
unlike the shed).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
> It's about one mile each way, and it's downhill all the way there. And
> while it's a hill to me I suspect many of the serious cyclists
> hereabouts would probably regard it as flat! :)


If your commute is really only a mile each way then I'd suggest getting some
old second-hand hack for a few quid that isn't going to get stolen. If it
is basically OK to start with and you keep it oily then it'll keep going for
ever at that kind of mileage. Then you can spend the proper money on
something lightweight and fun for recreational rides.
 
>> It's about one mile each way, and it's downhill all the way there.
>> And while it's a hill to me I suspect many of the serious cyclists
>> hereabouts would probably regard it as flat! :)

>
> If your commute is really only a mile each way then I'd suggest
> getting some old second-hand hack for a few quid that isn't going to
> get stolen.


Eeek, yeah. Not worth paying that much for a bike you'll be sitting on for
<thinks> 5 minutes each way. Belt along as fast as you can, get yer cycling
legs and by the summer you might be wanting to do some recreational cycling
with a club/ctc rides/audax/whatever.
 
Mark Thompson wrote:

> >> It's about one mile each way, and it's downhill all the way there.
> >> And while it's a hill to me I suspect many of the serious cyclists
> >> hereabouts would probably regard it as flat! :)


> > If your commute is really only a mile each way then I'd suggest
> > getting some old second-hand hack for a few quid that isn't going to
> > get stolen.


> Eeek, yeah. Not worth paying that much for a bike you'll be sitting on for
> <thinks> 5 minutes each way. Belt along as fast as you can, get yer cycling
> legs and by the summer you might be wanting to do some recreational cycling
> with a club/ctc rides/audax/whatever.


LOL! But that's not what I want - it's also for shopping, general use
around town, etc, and TBH I'm quite happy to "trundle", being on a bike
is fun, regardless of how fast or slowly it's going.

Finances permitting I'll take a train ride over to York on Saturday and
have a look round Cycle Heaven, and if they're willing test-ride a
Gazelle or two. Can't really judge until I've actually ridden one,
might hate it, might fall totally in love with it.
 
Peter Clinch a écrit :

> You can get automatic shifters, but the Nexus as described isn't one of
> them.


Hub-shifters like Sturmey Archer and Nexus are called automatics here in
France. I know there is a further category of full automatics that
require no shifting at all, but that is not what I meant. Sorry for the
confusion in nomenclature.

EFR
Ile de France
 

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