Reckless, Aggressive Drivers: Homegrown Terrorists

[Tom Keats]

In article <alangbaker-5B4344.16384121022008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
Alan Baker <[email protected]> writes:

>> Hey, a van sometimes is necessary. Nobody is preaching kicking the
>> addiction altogether.
>
> No.
>
> Just making the subtle assumption that it *is* an addiction; something
> bad and to be eliminated.
>
> Personal vehicles are one of the greatest forces for personal liberty
> and quality of life ever invented.

To every pay-off there's a proportional trade-off;
that of personal motor cars comes at a pretty
steep price.

Where's the pedestrian's personal liberty and
quality of life when s/he's trying to cross
Kingsway or Knight St or Marine Dr at a
no-traffic-light crosswalk?[*] Especially if
he or she gets hit by a car while attempting
to do so.

As one of of the greatest forces for personal
liberty and quality of life, the privilege to
drive is so routinely abused that its benefits
are obfuscated by a fog of death and destruction,
let alone plain, antisocial behaviour in
social environments. Personal liberty & quality
of life, my ass! In Vancouver, streams of car
traffic choke the life out of the city by
preventing people from getting from A to B.
Arterial streets are pernicious /barriers/ to us
citizens, not conducers of Freedom of Movement.

You can go ahead and thank your blessings for
being able to get around in your car. Don't
bother to think about the many people you ignore
and prevent from being so easily able to get around,
and who's personal liberty and quality of life you
steal, by driving your car (pay-off/trade-off.)
I guess they (we plebians) don't matter.

Y'see, drivers have a social effect when they drive
their personal cars in urban environments. And
when it's all added up, it's not a very good one.


cheers,
Tom

[*] In Vancouver /all/ intersections are
considered crosswalks, whether demarked
as such or not. And drivers are obligated
to stop for pedestrians at crosswalks,
wanting to cross the street. Matt O'Toole,
you might want to take note for your
Virginia thing.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[res09c5t]

> I have a cow orker with skinny studded nokians. They're 700c's, not 26".
> Don't know.
>


LOL! "cow orker"???

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
>>riding a bicycle.
>
> There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
> driving.

I hate driving. At work I sometimes have to drive
forklift. I much prefer the walkie (power pallet jack)
the company recently rented. Operating that thing is
more of a body thing. Sure, i've been flung off it a
couple of times, doing tight 360's with it, and I've
run-over my glasses with it, but I've learnt. And it's
electric, as opposed to the propane-fired forky-lifts,
so I'm not generating greenhouse gases, or filling
trailers w/ CO and causing the temp agency workers
inside to die.

Short of being an astronaut, nothing disconnects one
from the Earth and its gravitation & other influences
more than riding an IC engine.

Being too infatuated w/ IC engines is idolatry, and
The Almighty doesn't like it.

There's something fundamentally wrong with people
who don't like riding horsies.

Maybe they're the type of person animules in general
don't like.

I like driving my bicycle. I like driving my walkie.
I like canoeing, and horseback riding. I don't like
operating vehicles that don't give me biofeedback,
and with which I can't connect.

Cars are for the unfeeling. The dead.

There's something fundamentally wrong with the dead.


--
Ground Control to Major Tom
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[Tom Sherman]

Tom Keats wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
>>> riding a bicycle.
>> There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
>> driving.
>
> I hate driving. At work I sometimes have to drive
> forklift. I much prefer the walkie (power pallet jack)
> the company recently rented. Operating that thing is
> more of a body thing. Sure, i've been flung off it a
> couple of times, doing tight 360's with it, and I've
> run-over my glasses with it, but I've learnt. And it's
> electric, as opposed to the propane-fired forky-lifts,
> so I'm not generating greenhouse gases, or filling
> trailers w/ CO and causing the temp agency workers
> inside to die.
>
Having done temp warehouse and industrial work, I doubt management would
care if some temps died, as long as the time of death was known (so the
final paycheck would not be for more time than actually worked).
Temporary workers are fungible.

> Short of being an astronaut, nothing disconnects one
> from the Earth and its gravitation & other influences
> more than riding an IC engine.
>
> Being too infatuated w/ IC engines is idolatry, and
> The Almighty doesn't like it.
>
> There's something fundamentally wrong with people
> who don't like riding horsies.[...]
>
I would rather ride a bicycle than a horse. Bicycles do not get spooked
or drop dung all over the place.

Of course, I would rather ride a bicycle with a reclined position than a
horse position.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Alan Baker]

In article
<93c9360f-06d6-4747-a42b-93d41727c93b@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Feb 23, 3:58 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Feb 21, 7:38 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <[email protected]>,
> >
> > > >  donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <368cf42f-4c77-4b27-8446-54a7b6197...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> >
> > > > > >  DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Feb 21, 7:59 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Feb 20, 6:30 pm, DennisTheBald <[email protected]>
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > zle.com/ride_shirt-235520928427805825
> >
> > > > > > > > And about the frugal scooters? They only got a little motor...
> >
> > > > > > > >http://www.zazzle.com/scooter_shirt-235994025243531447
> >
> > > > > > > yes, a little motor can only suck a little.  Scooters suck <WAY/>
> > > > > > > less
> > > > > > > than cars, in fact they're almost as cool as bikes... if they
> > > > > > > were
> > > > > > > electric motors they would probably suck even less.
> >
> > > > > > Riiiiight....
> >
> > > > > > ...good luck getting your kids to their hockey game on a scooter.
> >
> > > > > Just don't have so many kids. Or have them all ride bikes to the
> > > > > hockey game.
> >
> > > > > Hey, a van sometimes is necessary. Nobody is preaching kicking the
> > > > > addiction altogether.
> >
> > > > No.
> >
> > > > Just making the subtle assumption that it *is* an addiction; something
> > > > bad and to be eliminated.
> >
> > > > Personal vehicles are one of the greatest forces for personal liberty
> > > > and quality of life ever invented.
> >
> > > > --
> > > > Alan Baker
> > > > Vancouver, British Columbia
> > > > "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
> > > > to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
> > > > sit in the bottom of that cupboard."- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > > When you notice all the couch potatoes behind the wheel stuck in
> > > traffic jams, you know they are addicted to gas. Even Bush admitted
> > > it, didn't he?
> >
> > I wouldn't know.
> >
> > But no, the existence of traffic jams doesn't show that.
>
> It only shows there no options other than sitting in endless traffic
> jams. Create the options, and you will see them come out of their
> cages.

The options have existed for years.

Here's a clue: people don't want them.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Alan Baker]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article <alangbaker-5B4344.16384121022008@[74.223.185.199.nw.nuvox.net]>,
> Alan Baker <[email protected]> writes:
>
> >> Hey, a van sometimes is necessary. Nobody is preaching kicking the
> >> addiction altogether.
> >
> > No.
> >
> > Just making the subtle assumption that it *is* an addiction; something
> > bad and to be eliminated.
> >
> > Personal vehicles are one of the greatest forces for personal liberty
> > and quality of life ever invented.
>
> To every pay-off there's a proportional trade-off;
> that of personal motor cars comes at a pretty
> steep price.
>
> Where's the pedestrian's personal liberty and
> quality of life when s/he's trying to cross
> Kingsway or Knight St or Marine Dr at a
> no-traffic-light crosswalk?[*] Especially if
> he or she gets hit by a car while attempting
> to do so.

The problem lies with the fact that we no longer enforce many of traffic
laws.

>
> As one of of the greatest forces for personal
> liberty and quality of life, the privilege to
> drive is so routinely abused that its benefits
> are obfuscated by a fog of death and destruction,
> let alone plain, antisocial behaviour in
> social environments. Personal liberty & quality
> of life, my ass! In Vancouver, streams of car
> traffic choke the life out of the city by
> preventing people from getting from A to B.
> Arterial streets are pernicious /barriers/ to us
> citizens, not conducers of Freedom of Movement.

Driving isn't a privilege. It's a right; a right that comes with
responsibilities.

As for choking the life out of the city:

1. Vancouver has ignored the car for years; simply hoping they'd go
away. Thus we an inadequate road system.

2. Far from choking the life out of the city, they are a vital part of
the city's health and growth.

>
> You can go ahead and thank your blessings for
> being able to get around in your car. Don't
> bother to think about the many people you ignore
> and prevent from being so easily able to get around,
> and who's personal liberty and quality of life you
> steal, by driving your car (pay-off/trade-off.)
> I guess they (we plebians) don't matter.

My use of the car doesn't prevent others from getting around without one.

In fact, due to the fact that public transit is subsidized and private
automobile use far overtaxed, my driving makes public transit possible.

>
> Y'see, drivers have a social effect when they drive
> their personal cars in urban environments. And
> when it's all added up, it's not a very good one.

LOL

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Alan Baker]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
> >>riding a bicycle.
> >
> > There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
> > driving.
>
> I hate driving. At work I sometimes have to drive
> forklift. I much prefer the walkie (power pallet jack)
> the company recently rented. Operating that thing is
> more of a body thing. Sure, i've been flung off it a
> couple of times, doing tight 360's with it, and I've
> run-over my glasses with it, but I've learnt. And it's
> electric, as opposed to the propane-fired forky-lifts,
> so I'm not generating greenhouse gases, or filling
> trailers w/ CO and causing the temp agency workers
> inside to die.

You mean you know for a fact that the electricity used to charge it
wasn't generated by a fossil fuel generating station?

<snip the rest of the mindless blather>

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Alan Baker]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> In article
> >> <368cf42f-4c77-4b27-8446-54a7b6197...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> >>
> >> DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> On Feb 21, 7:59 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> On Feb 20, 6:30 pm, DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> zle.com/ride_shirt-235520928427805825
> >>>
> >>> ... Scooters suck <WAY/> less
> >>> than cars, in fact they're almost as cool as bikes... if they were
> >>> electric motors they would probably suck even less.
> >> Riiiiight....
> >>
> >> ...good luck getting your kids to their hockey game on a scooter.
> >
> > If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
> > something seriously wrong.
> >
> Indeed. When I was a child, we walked or rode our bicycles to get places.
>
> It is a sick society that thinks a two ton steel cage is needed to haul
> a child around.

I'm sorry, but kids play organized hockey and that means traveling
complete with hockey gear to rinks that may be as much as 50 miles away
and often more than 5 miles away.

A bicycle is simply not a feasible mode of transportation.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Alan Baker]

In article
<913226af-dd72-4d9a-bd08-b4a180b8b041@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
Brian Huntley <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Feb 21, 2:47 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Feb 21, 2:27 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> > > If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
> > > something seriously wrong.
> > One of my coworkers lives in a small town. They borrow a neighboring
> > towns police force, and fire is volunteer. Nice town. His 12-year-
> > old son plays hockey. Some games are at 6AM, in Boston. Even if the
> > kid could get to the nearest train station, 10 miles away, with all of
> > his gear, there are no trains running that early. Other games are in
> > Plaistow, NH - there's no way to get there by train. Others are out
> > west, and if he makes the playoffs he'll be traveling out of state.
> > He's too young to work, and too young to drive. How do you suggest he
> > gets himself and all his equipment to his games?
>
> The somthing that's seriously wrong there is the hockey league, that
> expects kids and their parents to drive all over creation like that.
> If they must travel that far to find competition, why the heck doesn't
> the team meet at the local arena and have a team bus or something? Or
> better, why travel so darned far?

So they should build rinks a mile apart and only let the kids play the
teams that play at the half a dozen that are closest?

Riiiiiiight.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Alan Baker]

In article
<355445d2-2207-4f53-8c4a-9f6bd836ab06@b29g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
[email protected] wrote:

> On Feb 21, 7:36 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > [email protected] wrote:
> > >
> >
> > > If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
> > > something seriously wrong.
> >
> > They can just walk 15 miles on their own? At age 9?
>
> I didn't propose they walk 15 miles on their own, and not only because
> I didn't know what the distance was. I simply said there is
> _something_ seriously wrong with that situation.
>
> Possibilities are many. For example, there are serious problems with
> neighborhoods in which kids can't safely get around on their own.
> Isn't it foolish to build a world where a kid has to be transported
> everywhere by car? Yet that's the standard model for American
> suburbs.
>
> But beyond that: there's frequently something wrong with tying kids to
> a regimented sports schedule. I've seen firsthand the effects of
> demanding coaches and pushy parents. I think nine-year-old kids
> should be out exploring the world, and/or arranging pick-up games in
> their own neighborhood, not signed up for formal team sports.

At what age would you graciously allow kids to start playing for formal
sports teams?

>
> But in general, I think if a kid has to be regularly transported 15
> miles by car, it's likely that _someone_ made a mistake - perhaps in
> planning, perhaps in objectives, perhaps in priorities. The mistake
> could have been made by government agencies, or by housing developers,
> or by voters, or by parents. But the situation is not good.

On the contrary, the situation is fine.

>
> I think the switch from kid-powered transportation to car-powered
> transportation has removed lots of opportunities for kids - and added
> lots of body fat and other health problems.

You're assuming that the one eliminates the other and that is false.

--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
sit in the bottom of that cupboard."

 

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Yes, if we could keep the cagers off the road, it would be safe to ride
>>>>> anywhere on a bicycle with studded tires.
>>>> Yeah, and if your legs are the size of tree trunks, maybe you'll
>>>> actually cover 15 miles in a day riding through slush and ice on those
>>>> studded tires.
>>> It sounds like the exercise would do a lot of people good.
>>
>> Contrary to the beliefs of certain trainers, there's a difference
>> between exercise and self-torture. Riding a bike in the cold through
>> ice and slush falls into the latter category.
>>
>Riding a bicycle in winter is fun, except for the out of control cagers
>on the road. Studded tires, proper clothes and proper attitude are all
>that are needed.

The proper attitude for enjoying riding on studded tires through ice
and slush cannot be achieved without the help of illegal drugs.

>>> Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
>>> riding a bicycle.
>>
>> There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
>> driving.
>
>Most USians must not like driving too much, since they buy large, ill
>handling vehicles, and then focus more on their phone conversations than
>driving. People who actually like driving would benefit by getting all
>these cagers off the road.

I wouldn't know about those people; I drive a Miata and don't have a
cell phone.

>Do you enjoy driving in congested traffic with a bunch of clueless
>cellphone yakkers?

Do you enjoy biking on recreational trails full of kids with training
wheels weaving their way across it?

--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

 

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <[email protected]>,
max <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Being a snot-nosed young punk as you are, you wouldn't understand the
>need to actually work to maintain fitness, but you will, someday. Then
>you will be One Of Us. Just remember that you heard it here first. And
>the brand of tires you buy just might be Nokian.

Sure, they make car tires too.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

 

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <[email protected]>, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>To every pay-off there's a proportional trade-off;
>that of personal motor cars comes at a pretty
>steep price.

However steep the price is, it's an enormous net positive.

>As one of of the greatest forces for personal
>liberty and quality of life, the privilege to
>drive is so routinely abused that its benefits
>are obfuscated by a fog of death and destruction,
>let alone plain, antisocial behaviour in
>social environments.

I think you have cars confused with pre-Prohibition saloons.

>Personal liberty & quality
>of life, my ass! In Vancouver, streams of car
>traffic choke the life out of the city by
>preventing people from getting from A to B.

I've been to Vancouver. Pretty damn big city in terms of area; getting
around the whole thing without a car would be rather painful. I
walked around some of the central area, and didn't notice any cars
choking the life out of me; maybe they extend some courtesy to
visitors.

>Arterial streets are pernicious /barriers/ to us
>citizens, not conducers of Freedom of Movement.

Yeah, and rivers are a hazard to navigation.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

 

[Matthew T. Russotto]

In article <[email protected]>, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Matthew T. Russotto) writes:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
>>>riding a bicycle.
>>
>> There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
>> driving.
>
>I hate driving.

Hey, I poisoned that well fair and square; no drinking from it.

>Short of being an astronaut, nothing disconnects one
>from the Earth and its gravitation & other influences
>more than riding an IC engine.

I've never managed to get disconnected from gravity with an IC
engine. Well, unless you count the few times I went airborne and got into
free-fall for an instant. I'd count it as an advantage of the IC
engine if it were true.

>Being too infatuated w/ IC engines is idolatry, and
>The Almighty doesn't like it.

Let Him speak for himself, why don't you?

>There's something fundamentally wrong with people
>who don't like riding horsies.

Hey now, don't you start poisoning wells too. Anyway, animal odor,
allergies, and four mean hooves argue against horses.

>There's something fundamentally wrong with the dead.

Well, yeah; they're DEAD.
--
There's no such thing as a free lunch, but certain accounting practices can
result in a fully-depreciated one.

 

[Tom Sherman]

Alan Baker wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] aka Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> In article
>>>> <368cf42f-4c77-4b27-8446-54a7b6197...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>
>>>> DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 21, 7:59 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Feb 20, 6:30 pm, DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> zle.com/ride_shirt-235520928427805825
>>>>>
>>>>> ... Scooters suck <WAY/> less
>>>>> than cars, in fact they're almost as cool as bikes... if they were
>>>>> electric motors they would probably suck even less.
>>>> Riiiiight....
>>>>
>>>> ...good luck getting your kids to their hockey game on a scooter.
>>> If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
>>> something seriously wrong.
>>>
>> Indeed. When I was a child, we walked or rode our bicycles to get places.
>>
>> It is a sick society that thinks a two ton steel cage is needed to haul
>> a child around.
>
> I'm sorry, but kids play organized hockey and that means traveling
> complete with hockey gear to rinks that may be as much as 50 miles away
> and often more than 5 miles away.
>
> A bicycle is simply not a feasible mode of transportation.
>
Why do the kids NEED to play organized hockey in a league that takes
them all over the place. Maybe if they have the talent to someday play
in the NHL, but otherwise it is just silly.

If the children are going to be part of such a team, why can not they
walk or cycle to a meeting point where a bus would pick up the whole team?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

Alan Baker wrote:
> In article
> <93c9360f-06d6-4747-a42b-93d41727c93b@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 23, 3:58 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> In article
>>> <[email protected]>,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On Feb 21, 7:38 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> In article
>>>>> <[email protected]>,
>>>>> donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> On Feb 21, 1:01 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> In article
>>>>>>> <368cf42f-4c77-4b27-8446-54a7b6197...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
>>>>>>> DennisTheBald <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Feb 21, 7:59 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 20, 6:30 pm, DennisTheBald <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> zle.com/ride_shirt-235520928427805825
>>>>>>>>> And about the frugal scooters? They only got a little motor...
>>>>>>>>> http://www.zazzle.com/scooter_shirt-235994025243531447
>>>>>>>> yes, a little motor can only suck a little. Scooters suck <WAY/>
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> than cars, in fact they're almost as cool as bikes... if they
>>>>>>>> were
>>>>>>>> electric motors they would probably suck even less.
>>>>>>> Riiiiight....
>>>>>>> ...good luck getting your kids to their hockey game on a scooter.
>>>>>> Just don't have so many kids. Or have them all ride bikes to the
>>>>>> hockey game.
>>>>>> Hey, a van sometimes is necessary. Nobody is preaching kicking the
>>>>>> addiction altogether.
>>>>> No.
>>>>> Just making the subtle assumption that it *is* an addiction; something
>>>>> bad and to be eliminated.
>>>>> Personal vehicles are one of the greatest forces for personal liberty
>>>>> and quality of life ever invented.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Alan Baker
>>>>> Vancouver, British Columbia
>>>>> "If you raise the ceiling four feet, move the fireplace from that wall
>>>>> to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect if you
>>>>> sit in the bottom of that cupboard."- Hide quoted text -
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> When you notice all the couch potatoes behind the wheel stuck in
>>>> traffic jams, you know they are addicted to gas. Even Bush admitted
>>>> it, didn't he?
>>> I wouldn't know.
>>>
>>> But no, the existence of traffic jams doesn't show that.
>> It only shows there no options other than sitting in endless traffic
>> jams. Create the options, and you will see them come out of their
>> cages.
>
> The options have existed for years.
>
> Here's a clue: people don't want them.
>
The answer then is to raise people with values that create a healthier,
more sustainable society.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
>> To every pay-off there's a proportional trade-off;
>> that of personal motor cars comes at a pretty
>> steep price.
>
> However steep the price is, it's an enormous net positive.
>
People in Copenhagen seem quite content with their lives (more so than
any other major city according to surveys), yet personal automobile use
is lower than any other major city in a developed nation except for some
in Benelux.

>> As one of of the greatest forces for personal
>> liberty and quality of life, the privilege to
>> drive is so routinely abused that its benefits
>> are obfuscated by a fog of death and destruction,
>> let alone plain, antisocial behaviour in
>> social environments.
>
> I think you have cars confused with pre-Prohibition saloons.
>
>> Personal liberty & quality
>> of life, my ass! In Vancouver, streams of car
>> traffic choke the life out of the city by
>> preventing people from getting from A to B.
>
> I've been to Vancouver. Pretty damn big city in terms of area; getting
> around the whole thing without a car would be rather painful.[...]

Yes, without a car, you might have to actually interact with other
people, rather than being isolated in your steel and glass cage.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Matthew T. Russotto wrote:
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, if we could keep the cagers off the road, it would be safe to ride
>>>>>> anywhere on a bicycle with studded tires.
>>>>> Yeah, and if your legs are the size of tree trunks, maybe you'll
>>>>> actually cover 15 miles in a day riding through slush and ice on those
>>>>> studded tires.
>>>> It sounds like the exercise would do a lot of people good.
>>> Contrary to the beliefs of certain trainers, there's a difference
>>> between exercise and self-torture. Riding a bike in the cold through
>>> ice and slush falls into the latter category.
>>>
>> Riding a bicycle in winter is fun, except for the out of control cagers
>> on the road. Studded tires, proper clothes and proper attitude are all
>> that are needed.
>
> The proper attitude for enjoying riding on studded tires through ice
> and slush cannot be achieved without the help of illegal drugs.
>
I am sorry to hear of your problem.

>>>> Besides, there is something fundamentally wrong with people who do not like
>>>> riding a bicycle.
>>> There's something fundamentally wrong with people who don't like
>>> driving.
>> Most USians must not like driving too much, since they buy large, ill
>> handling vehicles, and then focus more on their phone conversations than
>> driving. People who actually like driving would benefit by getting all
>> these cagers off the road.
>
> I wouldn't know about those people; I drive a Miata and don't have a
> cell phone.
>
You must not be very observant.

>> Do you enjoy driving in congested traffic with a bunch of clueless
>> cellphone yakkers?
>
> Do you enjoy biking on recreational trails full of kids with training
> wheels weaving their way across it?
>
Hell no, which is why I ride my bicycles on the street where they
rightfully belong.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

Alan Baker wrote:
> In article
> <913226af-dd72-4d9a-bd08-b4a180b8b041@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
> Brian Huntley <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 2:47 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Feb 21, 2:27 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
>>>> something seriously wrong.
>>> One of my coworkers lives in a small town. They borrow a neighboring
>>> towns police force, and fire is volunteer. Nice town. His 12-year-
>>> old son plays hockey. Some games are at 6AM, in Boston. Even if the
>>> kid could get to the nearest train station, 10 miles away, with all of
>>> his gear, there are no trains running that early. Other games are in
>>> Plaistow, NH - there's no way to get there by train. Others are out
>>> west, and if he makes the playoffs he'll be traveling out of state.
>>> He's too young to work, and too young to drive. How do you suggest he
>>> gets himself and all his equipment to his games?
>> The somthing that's seriously wrong there is the hockey league, that
>> expects kids and their parents to drive all over creation like that.
>> If they must travel that far to find competition, why the heck doesn't
>> the team meet at the local arena and have a team bus or something? Or
>> better, why travel so darned far?
>
> So they should build rinks a mile apart and only let the kids play the
> teams that play at the half a dozen that are closest?
>
> Riiiiiiight.
>
Answer the question - why do not the team members travel on a bus,
instead of individual vehicles?

Why do children need to be in these types of leagues in the first place?
Is it really for them, or for the parent's ego (like so many organized
youth sports)?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

 

[Tom Sherman]

Alan Baker wrote:
> In article
> <355445d2-2207-4f53-8c4a-9f6bd836ab06@b29g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
> [email protected] wrote:
>
>> On Feb 21, 7:36 pm, Alan Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>> If your kids can't get themselves to their own hockey game, there's
>>>> something seriously wrong.
>>> They can just walk 15 miles on their own? At age 9?
>> I didn't propose they walk 15 miles on their own, and not only because
>> I didn't know what the distance was. I simply said there is
>> _something_ seriously wrong with that situation.
>>
>> Possibilities are many. For example, there are serious problems with
>> neighborhoods in which kids can't safely get around on their own.
>> Isn't it foolish to build a world where a kid has to be transported
>> everywhere by car? Yet that's the standard model for American
>> suburbs.
>>
>> But beyond that: there's frequently something wrong with tying kids to
>> a regimented sports schedule. I've seen firsthand the effects of
>> demanding coaches and pushy parents. I think nine-year-old kids
>> should be out exploring the world, and/or arranging pick-up games in
>> their own neighborhood, not signed up for formal team sports.
>
> At what age would you graciously allow kids to start playing for formal
> sports teams?
>
High school is early enough. Unless you think they need earlier
conditioning in group think and obeying orders.

>> But in general, I think if a kid has to be regularly transported 15
>> miles by car, it's likely that _someone_ made a mistake - perhaps in
>> planning, perhaps in objectives, perhaps in priorities. The mistake
>> could have been made by government agencies, or by housing developers,
>> or by voters, or by parents. But the situation is not good.
>
> On the contrary, the situation is fine.
>
>> I think the switch from kid-powered transportation to car-powered
>> transportation has removed lots of opportunities for kids - and added
>> lots of body fat and other health problems.
>
> You're assuming that the one eliminates the other and that is false.
>
There are a lot of things I would have changed about my childhood, but
being shuttled around in a family vehicle is certainly not one of them.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful