Record vs DA 10 a sensible discussion

[Eidetic]

My experience with 2004 Record 3x10 on a Merckx Majestic, and 2003 DA 2x9 on a Dean Castanza. Record RD upshifing is somewhat mushier than DA RD upshift. The CF lever/cable routing on the Record just isn't as drag-free as DA for RD upshifts, and the Record upshift lever is smaller. For downshifting, both RD and FD, the Record is more precise and much faster. Punching a thumb button on the Record vs. a finger lever on the DA. This has a disadvantage on the drops, however, where the DA downshift is still accessible, and the Record isn't. However, I don't shift from the drops much.

I concede that this compares a triple FD (Record) and a double FD (DA). The DA FD has one intermediate step between chain rings, whereas the Record FD has 4 (!!!) intermediate steps. A triple needs FD tuning, so if you like triples, I would definitely go Campy (in addition to the extra cog with Campy).

If you are picking between double chainring gruppos ....

 

[Eidetic]

I said above ... "This has a disadvantage on the drops, however, where the DA downshift lever is still accessible, and the Record isn't." To be fair, one can shift the RD from the drops using the Record shfiter ... but it awkward compared to the DA downshift lever, which is literally at one's fingertips.

 

[scottshields]

I just got my new bike with a record group. My old bike had DA.

I won't make recomendations becuase as others have pointed out it's an emotional thing and both are great groups.

Things I noticed immediatly about the record group:

- I can downshift multiple cogs with one motion where DA requires multiple shifts.

- The front derailler has multiple clicks of positions that you can use to trim our a rub if you need to. DA isn't as flexible.

- Downshifts seem faster with Record as another post noted.

My two cents...

Scott

 

[mrowkoob]

New Camap for next year apparantly carbon chainrings although the teeth will be alu...

 

[Tuschinski]

I have both Chorus 2004 and Ultegra 2000 (well, my gf has Ultegra on her bike, wich use to be my old bike)

What I really notice is that crappy weather... can't say I feel wich gruppo I am using when I am dying on my bike

 

[dhk]

Originally posted by scottshields
I just got my new bike with a record group. My old bike had DA.

I won't make recomendations becuase as others have pointed out it's an emotional thing and both are great groups.

Things I noticed immediatly about the record group:

- I can downshift multiple cogs with one motion where DA requires multiple shifts.

- The front derailler has multiple clicks of positions that you can use to trim our a rub if you need to. DA isn't as flexible.

- Downshifts seem faster with Record as another post noted.

My two cents...

Scott

But, multiple downshifts are part of DA....3 cogs are available with a full sweep of the lever. My trim works fine with an FSA triple crank also; rarely need to trim it once the limit screws and cable tension are fine-tuned.

For me, the choice of Shimano DA 9 sp came down to style and wide availability of chains, cogs and wheels. With a US-made frame and mostly US components, just seems that Shimano fit the style of my bike better.

If I was building an italian frame, would be Campy no question.

 

[tcklyde]

Originally posted by boudreaux
I use em both . No issues. The whole arguement is nonsense. So, why not beat it to death some more??? Whipperman chains are more hype than any real performance or value enhancement. Shimano and Campy both make excellent chains.Just use em with a removeable link and get the best of everything. I'd rather be riding.

Yeah, yeah. For someone who would "rather be riding," you spend a terrific amount of time posting. At least 1/3 -- if not more -- of talk on my group rides concerns pointless but entertaining equipment debates. It's part of the culture. Bring on the nonsense!

Those snarky comment out of my system, here's for the nonsense: I agree with boudreaux: Whipperman chains are pure hype. If anyone, anywhere, can honestly argue that they make a lick of difference, I'd like to hear it. But as for Campy/Shimano, preference on shifting is an interesting debate. I prefer Campy Ergo, but the price point is freakin ridiculous. I mean, even a reduced Centaur group is routinely more expensive than a reduced Ultegra. I'd ride Campy for the Ergos if I could afford it.

 

[mrowkoob]

Well if you use wipperman chains on campa they have that link like SRAM that enables you not to own that very expensive campa chain tool and use only once irreplacable pin. Also it is vey easy to remove the chain for cleaning. I don´t think it runs differently but it does seem to have practical advantages. I have SRAM on my 9 speed very comfy.

 

[viciousrider]

Punching a thumb button on the Record vs. a finger lever on the DA. This has a disadvantage on the drops, however, where the DA downshift is still accessible, and the Record isn't. However, I don't shift from the drops much.
[/B]

Both up and down shift levers on the record shifters are reachable in the drops, unlike lowly shimano sora, which uses a conceptually similar setup to campy shifters with a small thumb lever on the top of the shifter. On campy shifters its positioned so it can easily be hit from the drops, the shimano button is much higher and can't be hit from the drops. Ofcourse comparing record and sora is like comparing a geo and an audi but i realize that.

 

[RC2]

Its not a traditional chain. And the link was secure and checked before the race.

Maybe it was Mg? Too powdery.

 

[mrowkoob]

Since I started this thread in dec 2003 the following has hapened:Earlier my experiences was with solely Shimano (Dura Ace 9 and ultegra, xt,xtr) and some old suntour.

I now have both Dura Ace 10 and Campy Record 2004. So what´s better?

Campy has that super feature of being able to fine tune the front derailleur. It´s a bit lighter, A lot cooler looking. The negatives is being able to fine tune the front derailleur makes jumping from 39 to 53 a necessary two time swooping motion of the shifter before it happens. Takes too long!
I use the FSA carbon cranks with the record parts the fsa was measured to be stiffer than the old Dura Ace, I can´t feel the difference in bb flex compared to DA 04 and I´m a heavy rider. The shifting is very precise and yes "noisy" compared to shimano DA 04. Funny thing many make fun of the "plastic" campa levers but they feel more solid than the DA 04´s.

Shimano DA 04 most improved part isn´t really the crankset it´s the brakes they are awesome! Campy record brakes used to set the standard according to many... they are now surpassed. The shifting of the rear derailleur is almost identical to the record in speed, precision and feel. The difference is that the Shimano group is a lot more quiet and also super smooth in general. Negative is the only one click fine tuning of the front derailleur. Ergonomically it´s almost a tie between campa and shimano with Shimano a narrow winner.The crankset looks cool to me but it seem to protrude more from the bb on the non drive side and I have hit my medial malleole (while pedalling hard out of the saddle) on the non drive side crank base something which has never happended to me before with other cranksets. I can´t feel an improvement in stiffness compared to DA 9. I find that the Shimano group needs to be adjusted more often than the campy.

To me they are both exellent. People who bash either brand have possibly not ridden both top gruoppos basing their bashing on some low end campa or shimano **** group (yeah they both make em) or 2 have never ridden the other brand and are just biased.

Campa has my vote at the nr 1 spot. But Shimano is a very very close nr 2. They both have their forces. For competitive racing I use the Shimano equipped bike because spares from non team or other teams helpers or just a local LBS (for example a new rear wheel if you have a blow out at a race) are 95% Shimano at races.
Service parts are not readily availiable for campy in many places and you have to wait for an order. Shimano is almost always in stock. Shimano is cheaper too.

Buy one of them you wont regret it.

 

[zoomer]

Right.

Looking at a majority of the post concerning the two top gruopos of road cycling they all seem to be coloured so much by predisposed emotional baggage rather than actual fact.

This is a thread were it would be nice if we could discuss pros and con of the two contenders without a lot of bashing the brand you do not like. It´s a fact that they are both top of the line and tried out by top proffesionals. So we will be going into the details since overall performance is already proven.

Also posts about what pro who rides what is completely uninteresting since it is controlled by sponsorship.
So everyday problems met by the recrational rider or amateur who does not have a mechanic for everyday fine tuning is of definite interest.

Have you tried both top groups? How did you like them? Any problems? What was "better" or more functional? What was a common problem if any? Had any problems with record carbonfiber components? Had any problems with the new DA 10 plastic BB? Chainbreakage, the thinner 10 speed chains do they last? Should one use Wipperman 10 speed chains instead of shimano or campy and so on. How often do you need to replace components. What was the service you received from the two companys and so we go on without namecalling and biased opinions. Please!

Why does it have to be brand X versus brand Y....
Has anyone used a Campy Ergo 10 equipped bike in combination with a DA 10 wheelset. That would expand the possibilities and combinations of equipment possible. Anyone get this to work yet? I was thinking of trying this out myself, but if anyone has done so please let me know how it worked out. Thanks, good thread.

 

[hashde]

Mavic Inc. Mektronic !! j/k
or maybe not, campy may have one soon.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=tech/2003/features/campy_elec

 

[El Loto]

Both up and down shift levers on the record shifters are reachable in the drops, unlike lowly shimano sora, which uses a conceptually similar setup to campy shifters with a small thumb lever on the top of the shifter. On campy shifters its positioned so it can easily be hit from the drops, the shimano button is much higher and can't be hit from the drops. Ofcourse comparing record and sora is like comparing a geo and an audi but i realize that.

As i'm a teenager still at school i could afford a specialized allez with lowly sora. I must agree about up-shifting, it is an absolute nightmare. I can just about reach it in one go because i'm tall so i have a longish thumb. I have been mulling over saving my wages and possibly buying a Record 10 or DA 10 when they release the 2006 models(keeps the bank balance reasonably high if i wait).
P.S Does anybody in the UK know whre on the internet i could find a company that sends out campagnolo brochures? Their parts are hard to come by in NE Scotland

 

[tafi]

As i'm a teenager still at school i could afford a specialized allez with lowly sora. I must agree about up-shifting, it is an absolute nightmare. I can just about reach it in one go because i'm tall so i have a longish thumb. I have been mulling over saving my wages and possibly buying a Record 10 or DA 10 when they release the 2006 models(keeps the bank balance reasonably high if i wait).
P.S Does anybody in the UK know whre on the internet i could find a company that sends out campagnolo brochures? Their parts are hard to come by in NE Scotland

Get an electronic copy from www.campagnolo.com they have brocures of all the "2005" gear. They also have an extensive parts lisitng

 

[JohnO]

Just my own opinion, but if money is a bit tight, take a look at Chorus. It's very close to Record in construction, adding just a bit more weight. You're spending a lot of money for those last few saved grams... money you could put towards upgraded wheels, better bars, things like that.

The ergo shifters are a delight to use in the drops. Easy to shift. I've had my Chorus group for two years, no issues at all.

As i'm a teenager still at school i could afford a specialized allez with lowly sora. I must agree about up-shifting, it is an absolute nightmare. I can just about reach it in one go because i'm tall so i have a longish thumb. I have been mulling over saving my wages and possibly buying a Record 10 or DA 10 when they release the 2006 models(keeps the bank balance reasonably high if i wait).
P.S Does anybody in the UK know whre on the internet i could find a company that sends out campagnolo brochures? Their parts are hard to come by in NE Scotland

 

[PeterF]

I have a bike with '02 Ultegra 9 and a new bike that I built in the fall with '04 Record 10. I know it is not a fair comparison since Ultegra is not the crown jewel of the Shimano line so I won't talk about precision or durability. My take after about 1,400 miles on Record and 14,000 on Ultegra is that they are both quality groups with no obvious design flaws. I must say that I prefer the Campy because of the ability to trim the front derailleur and shift multiple cogs with one shift. I also prefer the ergonomics. The Campy just seems to fit my hands better and since I pretty much live on the hoods, the thumb shifter access from the drops is not a factor. When I do my morning training rides I try to stay on my small chainring to keep my cadence high. It is nice to be able to position the front derailleur to prevent chain rub no matter what cog I'm in. To give Shimano it's due, when I bought my Ultegra bike I went at least 3,000 miles before it needed any service whatsoever and even then I just tightened the cables a bit and gave the drive train a good cleaning. It ran great right out of the box and the only thing I have replaced (besides the cassette and chain a couple times) has been the pulleys and the cables. I only replaced the cables because my LBS was running an overhaul special for club memebers. Shimano is generally less expensive, compatible with non-Shimano parts and easy to find. If I had to vote I'm still saying Campy, but it's just a matter of preference.

 

[el Ingles]

I use em both . No issues. The whole arguement is nonsense. So, why not beat it to death some more??? Whipperman chains are more hype than any real performance or value enhancement. Shimano and Campy both make excellent chains.Just use em with a removeable link and get the best of everything. I'd rather be riding.

Too true .

 

[RC2]

The hood shape arguement w/r/t campy vs. shimano preference doesn't surprise me -- the physical design differences and their impact on 'feel' is the biggest difference that you can hang yer hat on. But still, you can impact hood shape a lot. On my shimano, I always keep 3 layers of cut tire below the hood, with an extra layer of cork (one layer is ~1/2 inch, then 1-1/2 inches, then ~2-1/2 inches, to build the good drop up, and then a couple straps of cork over that L-R and side-by-side to make it a bit wider)...I have big hands and this feels much better.

 

[mitosis]

I use em both . No issues. The whole arguement is nonsense. So, why not beat it to death some more??? Whipperman chains are more hype than any real performance or value enhancement. Shimano and Campy both make excellent chains.Just use em with a removeable link and get the best of everything. I'd rather be riding.

At last some common sense. Well put.