Recovery food & drink

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by Phil M., Feb 22, 2004.

  1. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self-
    concocted recovery drinks. Here's one I tried today, immediately after a
    long run:

    **Slim-Fast Smoothie**

    1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2 packets
    Equal sweetener (optional)

    Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.

    Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g

    According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
    resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes after
    the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this particular
    recipe seems to hit the mark.

    Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?

    -Phil
     
    Tags:


  2. 3 parts whiskey to one part glass.
     
  3. Sam

    Sam Guest

    No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.

    Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
    increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
    electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).

    Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
    the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate of
    re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence of
    calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a long
    period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less "aggression".
    I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a full meal is
    consumed as an alternative.

    "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
    > Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:
    >
    > **Slim-Fast Smoothie**
    >
    > 1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
    > packets Equal sweetener (optional)
    >
    > Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.
    >
    > Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g
    >
    > According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
    > resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
    > after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
    > particular recipe seems to hit the mark.
    >
    > Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?
    >
    > -Phil
     
  4. Doug Freese

    Doug Freese Guest

    Sam wrote:
    > No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.
    >
    > Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
    > increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
    > electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).
    >
    > Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
    > the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so.

    Isn't the "or so" that most of us bump into when we run daily.

    > > I would temper
    > Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a full meal is consumed as an
    > alternative.

    But Sam, when Phil adds the banana and the skim milk to the slimfast isn't that close to a meal?

    Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet tooth?
    I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. :)

    FWIW, I do Slimfast during and after a long run when I can't pass Go and get to the restaurant for a
    full brunch but I take mine straight up! ;)

    --
    Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email protected]
     
  5. Loaded Gunn

    Loaded Gunn Guest

    still drying time now for mine for hornstag sumacc. book said for tea it is good all winter. I did a
    pot of black walnuts., Forgot to remove outter layer of nuts at fall end. very time and got black
    walnut stain in water base from removeing layers of nut. point while hammer outer shell broke into
    one of the nutinner shell.one looks like a nut shell. was not a nut. just a hard look alike in a
    hollow space inners. so after boiling for 20 minutes the prsure cooker pot of black wallnuts , again
    after open a black wallnut. Bam a full inner nut. boiling makes nut bam into a full eatting wallnut.
    Not much nut in a black wallnut. Gave to mom. more for use as a spice. Got my twigs and bark and
    inners some of bark of North east white birch tree. Last year ice storm and power outage kill lots
    of these trees here. most just stand as a solid trunk and main branch. so too say bark is plenty.
    drying time.down trees from icestorm. sumacc is very sweet taste tea. black wallnut all protein. and
    birch they said something to cure all aliments. can be made into a beer too. Nature way. soon roots
    of cattails and stems too. at early spring.and birch tree sap. for bee you not has to mix a 100 to 1
    ratio for syrup. just boil your 2 1/2 gallons of sap, trowe in twigs and inner redf peal of outer
    birch bark. cool/ wait 1 week/ bottle. wait 3 weeks in bottle. or jar. yum yum. if get into nature
    wilds... make sure you give drying cure time before you jump into to eat. alto boil alto to get rid
    of bacterea and any other microbe little buggers. I am not a pro. I am learning my self. so research
    if you choice too. Indian food. natures best. God speed. I try a run. not to long but leg is good.
    today well try again. been since Aug of 2002 . pop my knee and I have not run. just bike ride. I am
    nuts. my first jog I ran with 39 m.p.h. winds on ice and snow and to say. as only way I could run
    with brakes on and I still was slow. Maybe God ment me to be slow. my ball of foot not right from al
    the bike rides. I could go all day not probe. jst not running/ calfs so hard... 48 year old male who
    wants to do marathons again soon. I don't care if I ever get a job. dad said I has to call someone
    before I get off on why I can t get work. maybe not ready yet. I well pick up 10 cent cans rest of
    my life if needed. Nobody wants me. so I say. run bike. cool. and alto sleep rest. Funny legs are
    allways good later. butt can get real stiff and calfs after first mile run was to say really hard.
    and sore.I try for so long and so hard to find work an all I ot was slap down to be a bum. I know I
    know. sorry. I could walk all day no probe. butt once started running sore calfs. recovere foodis my
    10 cent cans pick up alond roads . most dirt roads in fields and woods. the days food from rideing
    bike to store and back. closes one is 5 miles. I had to do 25 miles to get 5 dollors because of ice
    rain snow . maybe snow covers cans or others out there. I don't care. Not my roads. snow storm. By
    all Lowtuc. I don't care, be whatever or be me.or not. You can't hurt me no more. because I live and
    feed myself with out a job. or money. I hae not been in a tore o shoping mall or city in over a
    year. and figure I spent 20 bucks for gs since the fall. total. butt then I don'tcare. I ride a
    bike. time for a run with a day pack to pick up a dollor or so of 10 cent cans. or not. food is
    food. when one can get it. I liveing with no job. see........... god speed everyone.
     
  6. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
    > tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. :)

    Check the recipe. I'm adding lots of ice to make the smoothie just right. It makes it very thick,
    like a milk shake. It would be similar to adding 1 part slim fast to 3 parts water. Thereforem it is
    diluting the taste a good bit.

    -Phil
     
  7. On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 15:17:13 -0600, Phil M. wrote:

    > Doug Freese <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >> Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
    >> tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. :)
    >
    > Check the recipe. I'm adding lots of ice to make the smoothie just right. It makes it very thick,
    > like a milk shake. It would be similar to adding 1 part slim fast to 3 parts water. Thereforem it
    > is diluting the taste a good bit.
    >
    > -Phil

    why so many chemicals? why not use natural organic honey and/or brown sugar?

    You gotta stick to nature! Say no to cancer.
     
  8. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
    jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could
    also be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I
    try to make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO
    solution. I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a
    recovery drink.

    ~Matt

    >No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.
    >
    >Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
    >increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
    >electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).
    >
    >Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
    >the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate
    >of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence
    >of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a long
    >period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less
    >"aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a
    >full meal is consumed as an alternative.
    >
    >
    >"Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >> Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
    >> Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:
    >>
    >> **Slim-Fast Smoothie**
    >>
    >> 1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
    >> packets Equal sweetener (optional)
    >>
    >> Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.
    >>
    >> Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g
    >>
    >> According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
    >> resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
    >> after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
    >> particular recipe seems to hit the mark.
    >>
    >> Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?
    >>
    >> -Phil
     
  9. Phil M.

    Phil M. Guest

    MJuric wrote in news:[email protected]:

    > On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
    > jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could also
    > be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I try to
    > make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO solution.
    > I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a recovery drink.
    >
    > ~Matt

    Oh yes. I take in plenty of protein. But not imediatley after an endurance effort. I start out my
    day with 80 grams of oatmeal or cold ceral with 32 grams of whey powder mixed in. In the evening
    I'll make a smoothie with either orange juice or skim milk mixed with 32 grams of whey powder.

    -Phil

    >
    >
    >>No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.
    >>
    >>Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
    >>increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
    >>electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).
    >>
    >>Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really get
    >>the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the rate
    >>of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the presence
    >>of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you have a
    >>long period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with less
    >>"aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a
    >>full meal is consumed as an alternative.
    >>
    >>
    >>"Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    >>> Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery drinks.
    >>> Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:
    >>>
    >>> **Slim-Fast Smoothie**
    >>>
    >>> 1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
    >>> packets Equal sweetener (optional)
    >>>
    >>> Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one serving.
    >>>
    >>> Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g
    >>>
    >>> According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
    >>> resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
    >>> after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
    >>> particular recipe seems to hit the mark.
    >>>
    >>> Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?
    >>>
    >>> -Phil
     
  10. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "Doug Freese" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > Sam wrote:
    > > No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.
    > >
    > > Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost
    since
    > > you will lose some to increased urine production), carbohydrates (for
    the
    > > reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism), electolytes (sodium mainly
    which
    > > also helps the fluid retention).
    > >
    > > Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really
    > > get the CHO in all that fast unless you will
    be
    > > exercising in the next 12 hours or so.
    >
    > Isn't the "or so" that most of us bump into when we run daily.

    if you run daily at the same time every day, how long is it between the end of the run and the
    start of the next run? For most people that is going to be 20+ hours. Figuring 8 hours of
    sleep and that still gives you 12 hours to replace muscle glycogen; muscle glycogen synthesis
    rate is about 7% normally (outside of the first couple of hours or less) so one cen replenish
    muscle glycogen stores over time since few people are going to deplete muscle glycogen stores
    when they exercise. Just a little realism into what can become hysteria.

    >
    >
    >
    > > > I would temper
    > > Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR until a
    full
    > > meal is consumed as an alternative.
    >
    > But Sam, when Phil adds the banana and the skim milk to the slimfast isn't that close to a meal?
    >
    > Good lord Phil, Slimfast is very sweet without the banana and the Equal. Do you have a sweet
    > tooth? I do hope it the vanilla flavor and not the chocolate ot strawberry. :)
    >
    > FWIW, I do Slimfast during and after a long run when I can't pass Go and get to the restaurant for
    > a full brunch but I take mine straight up! ;)
    >
    Slimfast DURING a run, yuck--gotta admit I never tried it, but yuck. Although I was talking to
    a fellow over the weekend who does ultra-endurance bike events (24 hour solo MTB) and he
    blends up spaghetti so that it fits in a water bottle. That got a collective yuck and note to
    myself not to mix my water bottles with his.

    Personally I would not consider slimfast, banana and skim milk to be a "meal" but it
    probably has sufficient CHO and protein for a start on the process.

    >
    > --
    > Doug Freese "Caveat Lector" [email protected]
     
  11. Sam

    Sam Guest

    There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism and
    tissue repair. However, protein's role in muscle glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and
    not fully supported by the literature.

    "Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > MJuric wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    > > On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:47:25 GMT, "Sam" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > What about protein? Recently I've been putting some protein into my recovery drinks. The
    > > jury's still out on overall effect but it would "appear" to help with my recovery. Could
    > > also be that my "general diet" was on the low side where protein is concerned anyway. I try
    > > to make it a habit of hydrating throughout my longer workouts with a fairly dense CHO
    > > solution. I usually mix up another bottle and throw in 20-25 grams of protein as a recovery
    > > drink.
    > >
    > > ~Matt
    >
    > Oh yes. I take in plenty of protein. But not imediatley after an endurance effort. I start out my
    > day with 80 grams of oatmeal or cold ceral with 32 grams of whey powder mixed in. In the evening
    > I'll make a smoothie with either orange juice or skim milk mixed with 32 grams of whey powder.
    >
    > -Phil
    >
    >
    > >
    > >
    > >>No recipe, just a few thoughts on keys to recovery from a nutrition standpoint.
    > >>
    > >>Focus should be on fluid replacement (aim for 50% more than you lost since you will lose some to
    > >>increased urine production), carbohydrates (for the reasons below), protein (tissue anabolism),
    > >>electolytes (sodium mainly which also helps the fluid retention).
    > >>
    > >>Also, if you are not running again for a while, it is probably less important that you really
    > >>get the CHO in all that fast unless you will be exercising in the next 12 hours or so. While the
    > >>rate of re-synthesis is certainly heightened (glut 4 transporters seem to be optimized and the
    > >>presence of calcium in the muscle from all the contracting it has done helps the uptake), if you
    > >>have a long period of time between exercise bouts then you can replenish glycogen stores with
    > >>less "aggression". I would temper Pete's recommendation with the 1g CHO/kg body weight per HOUR
    > >>until a full meal is consumed as an alternative.
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>"Phil M." <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > >>> Over the past serveral weeks I've been playing around with some self- concocted recovery
    > >>> drinks. Here's one I tried today, immediately after a long run:
    > >>>
    > >>> **Slim-Fast Smoothie**
    > >>>
    > >>> 1 can Slim-Fast 1 medium banana (105 grams) 4 oz skim milk enough ice cubes to add body 2
    > >>> packets Equal sweetener (optional)
    > >>>
    > >>> Mix and smooth in the Smoothie machine until desired consistency is reached. Makes one
    > >>> serving.
    > >>>
    > >>> Calories - 398 Fat - 10g Carbohydrates - 81g Protein - 15.5g
    > >>>
    > >>> According to what I've been reading (Pete Pfitzinger's recommendation), "To speed glycogen
    > >>> resynthesis take in 1 gram of carbohydrate per kilogram of body weight in the first 15 minutes
    > >>> after the workout." In my case that works out to about 77 grams of carbohydrates. So this
    > >>> particular recipe seems to hit the mark.
    > >>>
    > >>> Anyone else have some recipes they'd like to share?
    > >>>
    > >>> -Phil
     
  12. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Sam wrote:
    > There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism and
    > tissue repair. However, protein's role in muscle glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and
    > not fully supported by the literature.
    >

    Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
    endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research was
    done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own research -
    not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results. Admittedly, not
    the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-examples. I
    recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed. I was just
    curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary literature
    than I do. Thanks.

    AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.

    Thanks.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  13. Jim Gravity

    Jim Gravity Guest

    Dot <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news
    >
    > Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
    > endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
    > was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
    > research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
    > Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
    > examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
    > I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
    > literature than I do. Thanks.

    Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.
     
  14. Sam

    Sam Guest

    I get this question a lot.

    The early research had two problems:

    1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
    synthesis rate.
    2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
    here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

    Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
    glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
    taken in under both methods).

    I argued with Ed Burke about this on occasion saying that the literature did not support that 4:1
    was any better than 5:0 in terms of glycogen; however, I agreed that protein is important for other
    reasons. Another thought I have heard recently is that as little as 20 g of protein regardless of
    CHO will do a great job and that more than that might not be necessary.

    Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can. Ed did have a
    stake in Endurox but he really believed that it was superior. I miss him a lot (we saw each other
    every couple of weeks and rode together on occasion).

    While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
    during normal exercise is also a bit overblown. The claims made by Accelerade for instance are based
    on one study that I am not sure has been published except in abstract form. Even in that case the
    problem was the design of the performance protocol.

    "Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    > Sam wrote:
    > > There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism
    > > and tissue repair. However, protein's role in
    muscle
    > > glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and not fully supported by
    the
    > > literature.
    > >
    >
    > Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
    > endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
    > was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
    > research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
    > Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
    > examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
    > I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
    > literature than I do. Thanks.
    >
    > AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Dot
    >
    > --
    > "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  15. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "jim gravity" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Dot <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news
    > >
    > > Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
    > > endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
    > > was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
    > > research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
    > > Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
    > > examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be
    > > absorbed. I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude
    > > more primary literature than I do. Thanks.
    >
    > Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.

    The only really educated opinion over that I would trust (outside of my own posts) would be those by
    Andy Coggan.
     
  16. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Sam wrote:
    > I get this question a lot.
    >
    > The early research had two problems:
    >
    > 1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
    > synthesis rate.
    > 2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
    > here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.

    duh. Thanks for this insight. Like I said, I hadn't read the original literature. OTOH, from a
    researcher's perspective, I can see why they may have chosen that hypothesis to test. Appropriate
    controls and/or comparisons are sometimes the most difficult thing to figure out.

    >
    > Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
    > glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
    > taken in under both methods).

    Thanks. I'll see if I can track down the article.

    >
    > Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can.

    I agree. I use the recovery drink (slimfast) as something to hold me over until I can get to real
    food. After a workout or race, I may be 1/2 hr to almost 2 hr driving home if I have to make any
    stops along the way (unless I'm running from my house). If at home, I just use milk until I get
    dinner cooked.

    >
    > While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
    > during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.

    Are you talking for "short" events, like less than, say, 4 hrs, or are you including ultras in here
    also, like 10-24 hrs and more. I think some of the drinks intended for longer events incorporate
    protein (sometimes specific amino acids) and fat for specific reasons. Given the assortment of
    drinks out there, there's obviously various opinions on what works ;)

    One of the reasons I've been curious about some of this stuff, aside from the obvious training
    issues, is that some of the cold-weather training (like subzero F for multiple hours, days)
    literature that I've been reading suggests there's a number of physiological differences in cold
    temperatures, including variation in relative amounts of substrates used. I'm just trying to mesh
    knowledge at normal temperatures with the cold weather stuff. Since my primary source on cold-
    weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track down more current information as well
    as the original studies.

    I appreciate you taking the time to provide the informative answers that you have.

    Thanks

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  17. Dot

    Dot Guest

    jim gravity wrote:

    >
    > Google rec.bicycles.racing for "burke protein recovery". There is an educated opinion in there.

    Thanks. I'll take a look at those. I saw Sam's hint at who the "educated opinions" are in
    those threads.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  18. MJuric

    MJuric Guest

    On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 03:26:35 GMT, "Sam" <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >I get this question a lot.
    >
    >The early research had two problems:
    >
    >1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-synthesis
    > rate.
    >2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO (no protein). The problem
    > here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.
    >
    >Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not increase
    >glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of energy was
    >taken in under both methods).
    >
    >I argued with Ed Burke about this on occasion saying that the literature did not support that 4:1
    >was any better than 5:0 in terms of glycogen; however, I agreed that protein is important for other
    >reasons. Another thought I have heard recently is that as little as 20 g of protein regardless of
    >CHO will do a great job and that more than that might not be necessary.
    >
    >Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something out of a can. Ed did have a
    >stake in Endurox but he really believed that it was superior. I miss him a lot (we saw each other
    >every couple of weeks and rode together on occasion).
    >
    >While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to sport drinks for benefits
    >during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.

    I personally can't do "protein" during a workout. Acclerade in any concentration that allows a
    decent income of CHO always made me sick. I tried Endurox as a "hydration" drink only once and
    nearly couldn't make it back home. I also tried protein powder, whey, mixed with other various
    drinks with the same "intestinal fortitude" issues.

    I pretty much use protein as a recover only. I think the main benefit for me is that if I were to do
    an analysis of my overall diet I suspect I'd be on the low end of where I should be for protein
    intake. The additional 20g I put in my recovery drinks may just boost me up to were I should be with
    a healthier overall diet.

    Thanks for the info.

    ~Matt

    > The claims made by Accelerade for instance are based on one study that I am not sure has been
    > published except in abstract form. Even in that case the problem was the design of the performance
    > protocol.
    >
    >
    >"Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    >news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    >> Sam wrote:
    >> > There is some evidence that protein is needed as part of recovery post exercise for anabolism
    >> > and tissue repair. However, protein's role in
    >muscle
    >> > glycogen synthesis has, IMHO, been overblown and not fully supported by
    >the
    >> > literature.
    >> >
    >>
    >> Same, What're your thoughts on the 4:1 carb:protein ratio research (referred to frequently by
    >> endurox/accelerade products and in Burke's book on optimal muscle recovery)? I know the research
    >> was done in a university originally, and I recognize Burke stood to profit. (Much of my own
    >> research - not running - is funded by private companies, but it doesn't affecct the results.
    >> Admittedly, not the case for others.) I also haven't poked around in original literature for counter-
    >> examples. I recognize the 4:1 had something to do with the protein helping the carbs be absorbed.
    >> I was just curious on your take on it, since you read at least an order of magnitude more primary
    >> literature than I do. Thanks.
    >>
    >> AS it turns out, many things, including slimfast, have approximately 4:1 ratio carb:protein.
    >>
    >> Thanks.
    >>
    >> Dot
    >>
    >> --
    >> "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
    >
     
  19. Sam

    Sam Guest

    "Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Sam wrote:
    > > I get this question a lot.
    > >
    > > The early research had two problems:
    > >
    > > 1) Some of the studies measured only the insulin response and not the actual glycogen re-
    > > synthesis rate.
    > > 2) IIRC, the Zawadzki paper compared the results of 4:1 with 4 g of CHO
    (no
    > > protein). The problem here is the energy intake in the former is 20% greater.
    >
    > duh. Thanks for this insight. Like I said, I hadn't read the original literature. OTOH, from a
    > researcher's perspective, I can see why they may have chosen that hypothesis to test. Appropriate
    > controls and/or comparisons are sometimes the most difficult thing to figure out.
    >
    > >
    > > Recently, Louise Burke ( no relation) and others have shown that adding protein does not
    > > increase glycogen synthesis when the energy intake was isocaloric (that is the same amount of
    > > energy was taken in under both methods).
    >
    > Thanks. I'll see if I can track down the article.
    >
    > >
    > > Again, in real life people are better off getting a meal than something
    out
    > > of a can.
    >
    > I agree. I use the recovery drink (slimfast) as something to hold me over until I can get to real
    > food. After a workout or race, I may be 1/2 hr to almost 2 hr driving home if I have to make any
    > stops along the way (unless I'm running from my house). If at home, I just use milk until I get
    > dinner cooked.
    >
    > >
    > > While I am "blasting" protein, if you will, the addition of protein to
    sport
    > > drinks for benefits during normal exercise is also a bit overblown.
    >
    > Are you talking for "short" events, like less than, say, 4 hrs, or are you including ultras in
    > here also, like 10-24 hrs and more. I think some of the drinks intended for longer events
    > incorporate protein (sometimes specific amino acids) and fat for specific reasons. Given the
    > assortment of drinks out there, there's obviously various opinions on what works ;)

    I was not considering ultras where the % of energy from protein is likely to be higher.
    >
    >
    > One of the reasons I've been curious about some of this stuff, aside from the obvious training
    > issues, is that some of the cold-weather training (like subzero F for multiple hours, days)
    > literature that I've been reading suggests there's a number of physiological differences in cold
    > temperatures, including variation in relative amounts of substrates used. I'm just trying to mesh
    > knowledge at normal temperatures with the cold weather stuff. Since my primary source on cold-
    > weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track down more current information as
    > well as the original studies.
    Cold seems to shift to more CHO use. I have no idea why unless it is shivering that causes
    an increase.

    >
    > I appreciate you taking the time to provide the informative answers that you have.
    >
    > Thanks
    >
    > Dot
    >
    > --
    > "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
  20. Dot

    Dot Guest

    Sam wrote:
    > "Dot" <[email protected]#att.net> wrote in message news:[email protected]
    > news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
    >
    >>Sam wrote:
    >>
    >>Since my primary source on cold-weather training is a late 1980s handbook, I'm trying to track
    >>down more current information as well as the original studies.
    >
    > Cold seems to shift to more CHO use. I have no idea why unless it is shivering that causes
    > an increase.
    >
    Actually, I've seen some indication of eating more carbs but another suggests more fat utilization,
    but I'm tracking down original papers. I was able to track down some e-mail addresses of authors and
    will e-mail them sometime if I can't find what I'm looking for. It's peak long-distance racing
    season up here right now (runners, skiers, mt bikers, dogs), so many researchers are likely busy
    collecting more data, and I wanted to wait until after the races in a month. When the rivers are
    frozen and ground is snow covered, it's a lot easier to have long distance races.

    Dot

    --
    "Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
     
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