Recumbents must melt in the rain



F

[email protected]

Guest
Lousy rainy weather, but only wind worries me- might be blown off the
cliff! Watched TVs 60 Minutes segment about Google to avoid weather.
With over 100 massive search computers and huge flat screen moniters
tracking the world; that got me thinking- it is not raining everywhere,
so what happened to posts about events or comments about 'bents in
sunny or dry places?

Chris Jordan
Santa Cruz, CA.
 
<[email protected]> wrote
>
> Lousy rainy weather, but only wind worries me- might be
> blown off the cliff!

I turned over the 7000 total mile mark on my TourEasy just before
Christmas. Of that, probably less than 50 are rainy-riding miles.
Longest single distance in the rain on this bike was about 15 miles.

Doing an out and back ride, a friend and I had ridden about 18 miles
into a 20 mph headwind and stopped for lunch expecting the return
trip would be a "breeze". While we ate, a front came through and
the winds shifted 180 degrees full force. Shortly into the return leg,
it began to rain lightly. I had a rain jacket, but didn't bother to put it
on. The rain was light and the temperature was warm. Between the
fairing and fenders I faired much better than my friend on his upright
road bike. My lower body stayed somewhat dry. He ended up
with a nice stripe up his back and pretty much soaked.

> so what happened to posts about events or comments about
> 'bents in sunny or dry places?

Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
elsewhere.

Jon Meinecke
 
Jon Meinecke wrote:

> Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
> ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
> the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
> reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
> elsewhere.

"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jon Meinecke wrote:
>
>> Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>> ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>> the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>> reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>> elsewhere.
>
> "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
> neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin

Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has been
joined I will weigh in with my opinion.

The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty. If
my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of liberty. ln
fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all liberty. I think
that is the position of every rational human being. Those who hold liberty
to be the highest of all values are simply wrong. Security is the highest of
all values. I am willing to be a total slave in order to be secure.

Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a jackass
of the first magnitude.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Subject: Re: Recumbents must melt in the rain
Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
=> Edward Dolan <= wrote:

>Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a jackass
>of the first magnitude.


Not that I know of. You're the first ever to suggest such a thing.


I'm sometimes dis-gruntled but I can't say I've ever felt "gruntled"
 
"G. Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Subject: Re: Recumbents must melt in the rain
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Edward Dolan <= wrote:
>
>>Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a jackass
>>of the first magnitude.
>
>
> Not that I know of. You're the first ever to suggest such a thing.

The rule of thumb here on ARBR is always to be very suspicious of any
quotation of Mr. Tom Sherman, our resident liberal-socialist. He is almost
always wrongheaded about everything under the sun. If he is quoting Benjamin
Franklin, that is a very bad sign that old Benjamin Franklin was probably as
nuts as Mr. Sherman is. But all those bromides of Franklin are just too
much. Who the hell thinks like that.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>elsewhere.
>>
>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
>>neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has been
> joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>
> The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty. If
> my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of liberty. ln
> fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all liberty. I think
> that is the position of every rational human being. Those who hold liberty
> to be the highest of all values are simply wrong. Security is the highest of
> all values. I am willing to be a total slave in order to be secure.
>
> Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a jackass
> of the first magnitude.

Hint for Ed:

This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>elsewhere.
>>
>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
>>neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>
>
> Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has been
> joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>
> The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty. If
> my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of liberty. ln
> fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all liberty. I think
> that is the position of every rational human being. Those who hold liberty
> to be the highest of all values are simply wrong. Security is the highest of
> all values. I am willing to be a total slave in order to be secure.
>
> Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a jackass
> of the first magnitude.

Hint for Ed:

This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>>elsewhere.
>>>
>>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
>>>neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>>
>>
>> Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has
>> been joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>>
>> The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty.
>> If my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of
>> liberty. ln fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all
>> liberty. I think that is the position of every rational human being.
>> Those who hold liberty to be the highest of all values are simply wrong.
>> Security is the highest of all values. I am willing to be a total slave
>> in order to be secure.
>>
>> Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
>> jackass of the first magnitude.
>
> Hint for Ed:
>
> This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
> Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.

I know what Benjamin Franklin was talking about and I disagree with him. The
first and foremost purpose of government is to insure the safety and
security of its citizens. Screw liberty all the way to hell and back if our
security is threatened. The god damn liberals can never get their
priorities straight.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>>elsewhere.
>>>
>>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
>>>neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>>
>>
>> Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has
>> been joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>>
>> The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty.
>> If my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of
>> liberty. ln fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all
>> liberty. I think that is the position of every rational human being.
>> Those who hold liberty to be the highest of all values are simply wrong.
>> Security is the highest of all values. I am willing to be a total slave
>> in order to be secure.
>>
>> Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
>> jackass of the first magnitude.
>
> Hint for Ed:
>
> This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
> Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.

I know what Benjamin Franklin was talking about and I disagree with him. The
first and foremost purpose of government is to insure the safety and
security of its citizens. Screw liberty all the way to hell and back if our
security is threatened. The god damn liberals can never get their
priorities straight.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>>>elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
>>>>neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>>>
>>>
>>>Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has
>>>been joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>>>
>>>The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of liberty.
>>>If my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount of
>>>liberty. ln fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all
>>>liberty. I think that is the position of every rational human being.
>>>Those who hold liberty to be the highest of all values are simply wrong.
>>>Security is the highest of all values. I am willing to be a total slave
>>>in order to be secure.
>>>
>>>Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
>>>jackass of the first magnitude.
>>
>>Hint for Ed:
>>
>>This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
>>Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.
>
>
> I know what Benjamin Franklin was talking about and I disagree with him....

So go hang out with Cletus Lee and Peter Merkel on BROL then, and be
subject to what Bryan Ball and Larry Varney see fit to be discussed. I
am sure you will not find it at all constraining.

> The
> first and foremost purpose of government is to insure the safety and
> security of its citizens. Screw liberty all the way to hell and back if our
> security is threatened. The god damn liberals can never get their
> priorities straight.

Hey Ed, we are discussing Internet recumbent bicycle forums here. Why
are you bringing your political rant into the thread?

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
>
>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>>>Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>>>>elsewhere.
>>>>>
>>>>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security
>>>>>deserve neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has
>>>>been joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>>>>
>>>>The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of
>>>>liberty. If my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount
>>>>of liberty. ln fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all
>>>>liberty. I think that is the position of every rational human being.
>>>>Those who hold liberty to be the highest of all values are simply wrong.
>>>>Security is the highest of all values. I am willing to be a total slave
>>>>in order to be secure.
>>>>
>>>>Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
>>>>jackass of the first magnitude.
>>>
>>>Hint for Ed:
>>>
>>>This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
>>>Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.
>>
>>
>> I know what Benjamin Franklin was talking about and I disagree with
>> him....

It was not necessary to delete any of my message at this point as it was all
on point. As always , you edit me too severely.

> So go hang out with Cletus Lee and Peter Merkel on BROL then, and be
> subject to what Bryan Ball and Larry Varney see fit to be discussed. I am
> sure you will not find it at all constraining.

I am sure I would find it extremely constraining. I am surprised that I have
not been kicked off of ARBR by now. The fact that I haven't been kicked off
of ARBR leads me to want to defend it to the bitter end. The fact is that I
just love ARBR. I will defend it to the death.

>> The first and foremost purpose of government is to insure the safety and
>> security of its citizens. Screw liberty all the way to hell and back if
>> our security is threatened. The god damn liberals can never get their
>> priorities straight.
>
> Hey Ed, we are discussing Internet recumbent bicycle forums here. Why are
> you bringing your political rant into the thread?

Because you quoted Benjamin Franklin on politics, that is why. If you do not
want to get me riled, then stay off of politics.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"G. Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Subject: Re: Recumbents must melt in the rain
> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
> => Edward Dolan <= wrote:
>
> >Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
jackass
> >of the first magnitude.
>
>
> Not that I know of. You're the first ever to suggest such a thing.

He was a womanizer, disowned his son, rarely saw or spoke to his wife in his
later years

I don't think he was a jackass but I could see where others might think so
 
Edward Dolan wrote:

> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Edward Dolan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Edward Dolan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Jon Meinecke wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Perhaps, to too many people, the existence of topical posts in
>>>>>>>ARBR is and has been for some time presumed *atypical*. For
>>>>>>>the tastes of many, ARBR seems to be a persistently poor climate for
>>>>>>>reasonable discussion . Some have sought "blue skies" in forums
>>>>>>>elsewhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security
>>>>>>deserve neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Well, I was going to let all of this pass, but now that the issue has
>>>>>been joined I will weigh in with my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>>The times will dictate the level of security versus the level of
>>>>>liberty. If my security is greatly threatened, I will give up any amount
>>>>>of liberty. ln fact, if the situation is dire enough, I will give up all
>>>>>liberty. I think that is the position of every rational human being.
>>>>>Those who hold liberty to be the highest of all values are simply wrong.
>>>>>Security is the highest of all values. I am willing to be a total slave
>>>>>in order to be secure.
>>>>>
>>>>>Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
>>>>>jackass of the first magnitude.
>>>>
>>>>Hint for Ed:
>>>>
>>>>This has nothing to do with politics, except that involving Monkeys and
>>>>Internet forums, moderated and un-moderated.
>>>
>>>
>>>I know what Benjamin Franklin was talking about and I disagree with
>>>him....
>
>
> It was not necessary to delete any of my message at this point as it was all
> on point. As always , you edit me too severely.
>
>
>>So go hang out with Cletus Lee and Peter Merkel on BROL then, and be
>>subject to what Bryan Ball and Larry Varney see fit to be discussed. I am
>>sure you will not find it at all constraining.
>
>
> I am sure I would find it extremely constraining. I am surprised that I have
> not been kicked off of ARBR by now. The fact that I haven't been kicked off
> of ARBR leads me to want to defend it to the bitter end. The fact is that I
> just love ARBR. I will defend it to the death.
>
>
>>>The first and foremost purpose of government is to insure the safety and
>>>security of its citizens. Screw liberty all the way to hell and back if
>>>our security is threatened. The god damn liberals can never get their
>>>priorities straight.
>>
>>Hey Ed, we are discussing Internet recumbent bicycle forums here. Why are
>>you bringing your political rant into the thread?
>
>
> Because you quoted Benjamin Franklin on politics, that is why. If you do not
> want to get me riled, then stay off of politics.

The Franklin quote was directed at those who whine about the lack of
moderation on alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent and then praise the BROL
message board as the preferable alternative.

I believe that Bryan Ball has good intentions, but "I am closing this
thread because we should not be discussing this" reminds me too much of
the stultifying atmosphere that passes for primary education in the US.

Has anyone else noticed that Mr. Dolan wants to turn every discussion
into a political rant? Methinks he needs a punching bag in his abode.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Edward Dolan wrote:
[...]
>>>Hey Ed, we are discussing Internet recumbent bicycle forums here. Why are
>>>you bringing your political rant into the thread?
>>
>>
>> Because you quoted Benjamin Franklin on politics, that is why. If you do
>> not want to get me riled, then stay off of politics.
>
> The Franklin quote was directed at those who whine about the lack of
> moderation on alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent and then praise the BROL message
> board as the preferable alternative.
>
> I believe that Bryan Ball has good intentions, but "I am closing this
> thread because we should not be discussing this" reminds me too much of
> the stultifying atmosphere that passes for primary education in the US.
>
> Has anyone else noticed that Mr. Dolan wants to turn every discussion into
> a political rant? Methinks he needs a punching bag in his abode.

When you quote Franklin on liberty vs. security you are the one who is
bringing politics into the discussion, not me. I am more into turning every
thread into a philosophic discussion on life and the human predicament as I
find strictly recumbent topics to be extremely boring. You should relax and
enjoy my digressions and you might actually learn something if you pay close
attention.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Mark Leuck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:O5qCd.21603$3m6.14732@attbi_s51...
>
> "G. Morgan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Subject: Re: Recumbents must melt in the rain
>> Newsgroup: alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
>> => Edward Dolan <= wrote:
>>
>> >Has it ever occurred to anyone but me that Benjamin Franklin was a
> jackass
>> >of the first magnitude.
>>
>>
>> Not that I know of. You're the first ever to suggest such a thing.
>
> He was a womanizer, disowned his son, rarely saw or spoke to his wife in
> his
> later years
>
> I don't think he was a jackass but I could see where others might think so

All womanizers are jackasses. To love a woman and then not to love her is an
abomination. A man owes it to his self worth to be faithful to a woman he
has loved to the death. Women are weak and pitiful creatures and it is a
man's duty and pleasure to love them and take care of them. I abhor
womanizers. They are basically scum.

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

<snip>

> I believe that Bryan Ball has good intentions, but "I am closing this
> thread because we should not be discussing this" reminds me too much of
> the stultifying atmosphere that passes for primary education in the US.
>

BROL is a business. The purpose of the business, as far as I can tell, is
to attract advertisers who want to sell recumbent bikes and associated
products. The message board is a part of that business purpose and must be
made to conform to the objectives of the businness.

Bryan's shutting off discussions is nothing personal, it's just business.
Letting message board users ******** people who are inclined to give you
money isn't good for business. Most BROL message board users seem to
understand this unwritten rule.

skip
 
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote
> Jon Meinecke wrote:
>
> > [...] Some have sought "blue skies" in forums elsewhere.

Note I said "sought" and not necessarily "found"...

The hue of this or other discussion forums' "bluer skies" and
"greener pastures" are *indeed* in the eye of the beholder.

> "Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve
> neither security nor liberty." - Benjamin Franklin

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization of any or all "those"
who have chosen not to participate here... The invocation
here seems to be overstating the case a bit. People seeking
out a forum for discussion mainly of issues directly related
to recumbent bicycles does not seem a matter of "essential"
liberty or "non-temporary" security, especially considering
the nature and availability of USENET newsgroups and
other forms of expression and publication.

The OP asked "so what happened to posts about events or
comments about 'bents in sunny or dry places?"

I suggest some such topical posts are now made elsewhere,
by choice, arguably on the basis of the recent and current
state of ARBR. Those no longer or never posting here are
"contributors" to the dynamic of ARBR by their absence
as are the current active posters by their presence, of course.

Jon Meinecke
net.subtle-apteryx
 
"Jon Meinecke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1104862764.70f49286c33c4daa88372196777b2be7@teranews...
[...]
> I suggest some such topical posts are now made elsewhere,
> by choice, arguably on the basis of the recent and current
> state of ARBR. Those no longer or never posting here are
> "contributors" to the dynamic of ARBR by their absence
> as are the current active posters by their presence, of course.

The recent and current posting going on here on ARBR is just fine, thank
you. Thanks largely to me, we no longer have all those odious remarks about
Bush and the Republicans being posted here by the likes of you, Mr. Ball and
many others. They are now gone from here and it is good riddance to the lot
of them.

Another group that is gone from here are those who insist that we stay
strictly on topic. My God! What bores they were. How they would go on and on
about kill filing those whom they did not want to read. They are now gone
too and good riddance to them. If and when you want to leave here
permanently, I assure you, you will not be missed anymore than those others.
You are one of the worst pontificators I have ever known. Are you and Cletus
Lee perhaps brothers?

--
Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota
 
I am complaining about wind and rai, and I return to this post one day
later ***wow!*** 17 messages!

The fair weather and foul weather posts are indeed thriving; all over
the web unattainable to most.

The DOT>COM era is alive and well! The My Yahoo pages updated to
world-wide use to me on Monday. I did not know that much was
available. I found links I had only dreamed of, activities and events
going on where it is sunny right now, as well as discussions going on
now answeriing many questions I have had for years.

Blogs all over the place! More than I knew existed. Some of the
messages seem like past ARBR users who sought "blue skies".

I am in awe of the electronic doors opening!

Back to the wind though, I was very wrong about all the wind being from
Mother Nature. Maybe between the political blowhards, $pusher$, and
ARBR; we have more than enough here.

Chris
 
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