Red Meat NO GOOD, Veggies no protection.... NOW WHAT?



In article <slYFd.4929$Z%[email protected]>,
usual suspect <[email protected]> wrote:

> Fudgepacker Ron wrote:
> <...>
> >>>>It doesn't. You are, predictably, committing the
> >>>>Fallacy of the Excluded Middle, also known as Fallacy
> >>>>of False Dilemma.
> >>>>
> >>>>You commit lots of fallacies. You're just generally
> >>>>very slovenly. You have an extremely poor grasp of
> >>>>fundamental logic, and you're slovenly.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>[snip weak, limp-wristed sophistry]
> >>
> >>You committed logical fallacies.

> >
> > We all do

>
> Most people learn from their mistakes, but you seem quite happy to keep
> repeating yours.
>
> > *screams heard as people run for cover*

>
> Enough of your drama queen **** in newsgroups. Grow up, you
> self-marginalized windbag.


I see we return to the intellectually dishonest practice of editing. Too
bad, so sad.
 
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> > "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> >
> > > > You commit lots of fallacies. You're just generally
> > > > very slovenly. You have an extremely poor grasp of
> > > > fundamental logic, and you're slovenly.
> > >
> > > Legalizing pot does not advocate pot use. (Dutch's example)
> > > Legalizing killing humans does not advocate killing humans.
> > > Legalizing rape does not advocate the act of rape.
> > >
> > > The formulation of the three examples is the same. Please identify

what
> > > is logical for one statement and illogical for the remaining two.

> >
> > Pot use involves an person taking a substance into their own body.

Taking
> > substances into one's body is generally seen as a personal choice and
> > therefore it should not be a crime.
> >
> > The second two involve causing serious harm to another person. Therefore

the
> > second two should illegal.
> >
> > This is really, really basic stuff Ron, which is why I suspect you of
> > trolling.

>
> To repeat, the question being asked was concerning the legalization of
> an action of a citizen constituting advocating for that action. I noted
> that you continue to avoid that issue.



Advocating legalization is merely saying you don't believe the action is
something that in itself infringes on the rights of others. It does not
mean that you advocate or don't advocate the action.

Therefore:
I advocate legalization of marijuana (as any sensible person does) means I
think using marijuana in itself does not infringe on the rights of others.
If I said I advocate legalizing murder or rape, I would be saying that
murder or rape in themselves do not infringe on the rights of others, which
I don't believe and which is false.

Your fallacy results from the fact that you've reversed the negatives so
that the object of the first statement is different in kind from the objects
of the others.
 
"Jerry Story" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >A small amount of red wine is said to be beneficial.

>
> Dr. Mercola pointed out the flaw in that study.
>
> The study -seemed- to show that people who consumed alcohol moderately
> were healthier than people who abstained totally from alcohol.
>
> The flaw in that study was that the people who used to be drunks and
> wrecked their health on alcohol and then swore off alcohol were counted
> as abstainers.



There have been a number of studies that have shown that moderate alcohol
intake is associated with lower overall mortality, especially cardiovascular
mortality.
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> > Rudy Canoza <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> You committed logical fallacies.

> >
> >
> > We all do -- it's called being human.

>
> Occasionally, but you do it constantly. You are also as slovenly and lazy in
> your posting style as you are in your thinking, you never trim headers or
> extraneous included text.


Sir, yes Sir.

Strike me down for breaking a new rule. Next thing you'll know I'll run
through my home with scissors pointed outwards.
 
"usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Juhana Harju wrote:
> > pearl wrote:
> >
> > Pearl, you are absolutely right about the health benefits of vegetarian
> > diets. However, there are some unanswered questions also.

>
> Then she's not *absolutely* right.


'.. disease rates were significantly associated within a range of dietary
plant food composition that suggested an absence of a disease
prevention threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an all-plant foods
diet, the greater will be the reduction in the rates of these diseases.'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html

> > Vegetarian
> > diet is not good at reducing the indicidence of breast cancer (actually
> > no known diet is).

>
> Correct. Heredity has been shown to play a significant role, though, as
> have other factors like smoking and other environmental factors.


RELATIVE risk of breast cancer among Japanese woman
Meat Eggs Butter/cheese
less than once per week 1.0 1.0 1.0
2-4 times per week 2.55 1.91 2.10
almost daily 3.83 2.86 3.23
(from a paper by Hirayama cited in John Scharffenberg's
Problems with Meat", 1989)

<..>
> Lesley, aka 'pearl,' is a foot masseuse by training, not a scientist.


Smear. ["All cruelty springs from weakness." (Seneca, 4BC-AD65)]

See;
http://www.reflexology-research.com/controlled_studies_by_syst.htm

> She'll paste in many abstracts about which she has very little
> comprehension. It's also important for you to understand that she's also
> a barking mad skinhead.


Not true.

"A favored technique is to debilitate your identity [personally,
I hate the term self-esteem] by levelling false accusations and/or
questioning your honesty, fidelity, trustworthiness, your "true"
motivations, your "real" character, your sanity and judgement."
....
http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/cleckley-mos.htm

<Q. When does an object 'ring like a bell', suspect?>
 
"Rudy Canoza" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> pearl wrote:
>
> > "Rudy Canoza" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>pearl wrote:
> >>
> >>>"usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >>news:eek:[email protected]...

<..>
> >>>>>> We found that a vegetarian diet was associated with a
> >>
> >>15%
> >>
> >>>>>> reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease.
> >>
> >>This was
> >>
> >>>>>> *NOT SIGNIFICANT*
> >>>
> >>>How is a 15% reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease
> >>>*NOT SIGNIFICANT*??
> >>
> >>Not STATISTICALLY significant, meaning, the measured result - a 15%
> >>reduction - could have come about by simple chance.

> >
> >
> > Non sequitur. You're thinking of 'P Values'.

>
> No, I'm thinking of statistical significance.


Whatever,.. it doesn't apply to the above.

> You don't have a CLUE about "P values".


False. You don't have a clue, period.
 
"Robert Klute" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
<..>
> Read the report. While there are health risks that have been associated
> with the eating of meats, even on a vegetarian diet it is what you DO
> eat, not what you don't that counts. Please see the other threads -
> "Indian Paradox" in sci.med.nutrition, and "Indian/asian higher carb
> diets" in alt.support.diet.low-carb - that discuss the issue of
> vegetarian Indians have one of the highest incidences of CVD in the
> world (higher, in fact, than non-vegetarian Indians).


' Coronary artery disease (CAD) rates vary 10-fold among populations.
The CAD rates among overseas Asian Indians worldwide are 50% to
400% higher than people of other ethnic origin irrespective of gender,
religion, or social class. India is now in the middle of a CAD epidemic
with urban Indians having CAD rates similar to overseas Indians, which
is 4-fold higher than Americans. Whereas the CAD rates halved in the
West in the past 30 years, the rates doubled in India with no signs of a
downturn yet. The average age of first myocardial infarction (MI) has
decreased by 20 years in India. Among Asian Indian men, about half
of all MI occur under the age of 50 and 25% under the age of 40.
Apart from glucose intolerance, they have no excess of conventional
risk factors such as cigarette smoking, hypertension, and high
cholesterol levels. Nearly half of them are life-long vegetarians.
This excess burden of premature CAD in Asian Indians is due to a
genetic susceptibility, mediated through elevated levels of lipoprotein(a)
{Lp(a)}, which magnifies the adverse effects of lifestyle factors
associated with urbanization, affluence, and changes in diet. It appears
that at a given level of any single or combination of conventional risk
factor(s), the CAD rates among Asian Indians are at least double that
of Whites. A more aggressive approach to prevention and treatment
of both conventional and emerging risk factors is warranted in the
Asian Indians. Although CAD is a fatal disease with no known cure,
it is also highly predictable, preventable, and treatable with the existing
knowledge.
...
Abnormalities of glucose metabolism are particularly common and
important in Asian Indians and often occur without significant obesity.
9, 77 , 78 A recent study in India showed an age-standardized
prevalence of diabetes and impaired glucose tolerance of 12.1%
and 14.0% respectively, with no gender difference. 79 About 50%
of diabetes remains undiagnosed. Both diabetes and impaired
glucose tolerance are associated with increased risk of CAD even
within the ranges considered normal.53, 80 Approximately 80% of
deaths in diabetic patients are attributable to cardiovascular disease
(CVD), which in turn is highly correlated with dyslipidemia. 81
Diabetic dyslipidemia consists of elevated TG, low HDL, and an
increased proportion of small dense LDL. ..
...
http://www.ispub.com/ostia/index.php?xmlFilePath=journals/ijc/vol1n2/cadi.xml
 
"pearl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> pearl wrote:
>> > "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >> pearl wrote:

<snip>
>> > http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1101/et1101s18.html

>>
>> I am also interested in that study. I ordered the new book.

>
> Yes. I plan to as well.
>
>> http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html
>>
>>


Food in China-Variety and Monotony:

"In the 1980s, a group of researchers from Cornell University carried out a
massive dietary survey, covering all 25 of China's farflung provinces, in an
effort to determine food consumption and disease patterns. This study is
often cited as proof that plant-based diets are healthier than those based
on animal foods like meat and milk. Study director T. Colin Campbell claims
that the Cornell findings suggest "that a diet high in animal products
produces disease, and a diet high in grains, vegetables and other plant
matter produces health."12 But the Cornell survey data, when carefully
studied, does not support such claims.13
What the Cornell researchers discovered was that meat intake in China was
highest in the western border region and very low in a number of
impoverished areas centering on Sian. They found that meat eaters had lower
triglycerides and less cirrhosis of the liver-and that they took more
snuff-but otherwise they found no strong correlation, either negative or
positive, with meat eating and any disease."

Taken from: http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html

The Okinowan diet sounds much more interesting (towards the bottom of the
link).

René
 
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> > > You commit lots of fallacies. You're just generally
>> > > very slovenly. You have an extremely poor grasp of
>> > > fundamental logic, and you're slovenly.
>> >
>> > Legalizing pot does not advocate pot use. (Dutch's example)
>> > Legalizing killing humans does not advocate killing humans.
>> > Legalizing rape does not advocate the act of rape.
>> >
>> > The formulation of the three examples is the same. Please identify what
>> > is logical for one statement and illogical for the remaining two.

>>
>> Pot use involves an person taking a substance into their own body. Taking
>> substances into one's body is generally seen as a personal choice and
>> therefore it should not be a crime.
>>
>> The second two involve causing serious harm to another person. Therefore
>> the
>> second two should illegal.
>>
>> This is really, really basic stuff Ron, which is why I suspect you of
>> trolling.

>
> To repeat, the question being asked was concerning the legalization of
> an action of a citizen constituting advocating for that action. I noted
> that you continue to avoid that issue.


Please go back to cutting women's hair or interior decorating or whatever
your day job is Ron, logic is not your thing.
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> >>
> >> > > You commit lots of fallacies. You're just generally
> >> > > very slovenly. You have an extremely poor grasp of
> >> > > fundamental logic, and you're slovenly.
> >> >
> >> > Legalizing pot does not advocate pot use. (Dutch's example)
> >> > Legalizing killing humans does not advocate killing humans.
> >> > Legalizing rape does not advocate the act of rape.
> >> >
> >> > The formulation of the three examples is the same. Please identify what
> >> > is logical for one statement and illogical for the remaining two.
> >>
> >> Pot use involves an person taking a substance into their own body. Taking
> >> substances into one's body is generally seen as a personal choice and
> >> therefore it should not be a crime.
> >>
> >> The second two involve causing serious harm to another person. Therefore
> >> the
> >> second two should illegal.
> >>
> >> This is really, really basic stuff Ron, which is why I suspect you of
> >> trolling.

> >
> > To repeat, the question being asked was concerning the legalization of
> > an action of a citizen constituting advocating for that action. I noted
> > that you continue to avoid that issue.

>
> Please go back to cutting women's hair or interior decorating or whatever
> your day job is Ron, logic is not your thing.


Such a simple question. Ah, well. Too bad, I don't keep score.
 
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> "Dutch" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
>> > Rudy Canoza <[email protected]> wrote:

>>
>> >> You committed logical fallacies.
>> >
>> >
>> > We all do -- it's called being human.

>>
>> Occasionally, but you do it constantly. You are also as slovenly and lazy
>> in
>> your posting style as you are in your thinking, you never trim headers or
>> extraneous included text.

>
> Sir, yes Sir.
>
> Strike me down for breaking a new rule.


The rule is older than the internet.

Next thing you'll know I'll run
> through my home with scissors pointed outwards.
 
Rene wrote:
> Taken from:
> http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html
>
> The Okinowan diet sounds much more interesting (towards the bottom of
> the link).


Yes, the Okinawan diet is very interesting but that site is not a
reliable source of Okinawan diets. Actually pork is eaten /very/ little
and the main protein sources are tofu and fish. The diet is loaded with
vegetables and grains. It is a moderate to high carbohydrate diet.

http://www.okinawaprogram.com/

http://okinawa-diet.com/okinawa_diet/okinawa_diet_food_pyramid.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...102-0087450-4752979?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

I have read the book.

--
Juhana
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Dutch" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> > "Dutch" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> "Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> > Rudy Canoza <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> You committed logical fallacies.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > We all do -- it's called being human.
> >>
> >> Occasionally, but you do it constantly. You are also as slovenly and lazy
> >> in
> >> your posting style as you are in your thinking, you never trim headers or
> >> extraneous included text.

> >
> > Sir, yes Sir.
> >
> > Strike me down for breaking a new rule.

>
> The rule is older than the internet.


Imagine that, I don't want to follow all your rules. Neither does the
vegan. Are you going to punish us now?

*claps hands excitedly*


> Next thing you'll know I'll run
> > through my home with scissors pointed outwards.
 
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote
> "Dutch" <[email protected]>
> wrote:


>> Please go back to cutting women's hair or interior decorating or whatever
>> your day job is Ron, logic is not your thing.

>
> Such a simple question. Ah, well. Too bad, I don't keep score.


No, you certainly don't!
 
pearl wrote:
> "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...


>> No, but globally vegetarians have higher serum homocysteine levels
>> because lack of vitamin B12, which is not healthy of cource. (This
>> does not apply to vegetarians in US because of the wide
>> supplementation.)
>> [...]
>> I know this. However, not eating any fish, which is practically the
>> only dietary source to provide substantial amounts ov vitamin D adds
>> to this deficiency *if* you don't supplement.

>
> Supplement, if needed.


The more any diet relies on supplementing, the higher are the risks
also. Everyone following a certain diet is not aware of the need of
supplementing.

>
>>> *Vegans, who eat more seeds and nuts, have twice the
>>> Omega 3 fat level of the average American.* '
>>> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~x514/HEAL/THEFATSOFLIFE.pdf
>>> * mine

>>
>> The omega-3 fatty acid status of vegetarians is far from being ideal.

>
> It can be..


But in general, it is not.

>
>> Please, look at the following study (full text available):
>>
>> Brenda C Davis and Penny M Kris-Etherton, Achieving optimal essential
>> fatty acid status in vegetarians: current knowledge and practical
>> implications. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol. 78, No. 3,
>> 640S-646S, September 2003
>>
>>

>

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/ful...pec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn
>
> 7) Consider using a direct source of DHA. Aim for 100-300 mg/d. '
>> Trying to provide omega-3 fatty acids from vegetarian sources only
>> increases the risk of prostate cancer. Also the elongation of enough
>> EPA and DHA is efficient only in young and healthy people. So
>> alpha-linolenic acid is not ideal source to provide enough EPA and
>> DHA.

>
> 'For those with increased needs for EPA and DHA (eg, pregnant and
> lactating women) or at greater risk for poor conversion (persons with
> diabetes, those with neurological disorders, premature infants, the
> elderly),
> it may be prudent to ensure that there is a direct source of EPA and
> DHA.'
>
> While they are the original sources of EPA and DHA (fish do not
> produce
> long-chain n-3 fatty acids), most are not concentrated sources
> because of
> their extremely low total fat content. An important exception is a
> DHA-rich
> microalgae that provides 10-40% DHA by dry weight and is currently
> available in supplement form. When supplementing with a direct DHA
> source, 100-300 mg/d is recommended. [...]


I know that there are direct vegetarian sources of DHA. But these
supplements are expensive, more expensive than fish oils. The more any
diet relies on supplementing, the higher are the risks also. Everyone
following a certain diet is not aware of the need of supplementing. And
not everyone can afford it and some people simply don't care.

>> I mostly agree with you, but I think we would do better by adding
>> some fish oils and/or fatty fish like the Cretans and Okinawan
>> centenarians.

>
> Please see; http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/reporttext.htm


I am aware of the contamination risks but you always have to weigh which
is the risk/benefit ratio. I think the weight of evidence speaks for
using either fish oils or fatty fish. Besides fatty acids there might be
some other substances also in fish which might be important for the
cognitive functions, e.g. phosphatidylcholine:

http://www.raysahelian.com/ps.html

Mackerel is one of the richiest dietary sources of phosphatidylcholine:

http://www.degussa-bioactives.com/bioactives/html/e/products/brands/lecips/phosphat_dietary.htm

--
Juhana
 
Juhana Harju wrote:

>>> I mostly agree with you, but I think we would do better by adding
>>> some fish oils and/or fatty fish like the Cretans and Okinawan
>>> centenarians.

>>
>> Please see; http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/reporttext.htm

>
> I am aware of the contamination risks but you always have to weigh
> which is the risk/benefit ratio. I think the weight of evidence
> speaks for using either fish oils or fatty fish. Besides fatty acids
> there might be some other substances also in fish which might be
> important for the cognitive functions, e.g. phosphatidylcholine:
>
> http://www.raysahelian.com/ps.html
>
> Mackerel is one of the richiest dietary sources of
> phosphatidylcholine:
>
>

http://www.degussa-bioactives.com/bioactives/html/e/products/brands/lecips/phosphat_dietary.htm

Here is some more about phosphatidylserine:

http://www.leci-ps.com/bioactives/html/e/products/brands/lecips/faq.htm

--
Juhana
 
Juhana Harju wrote:
> pearl wrote:
>> "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...

>
>>> No, but globally vegetarians have higher serum homocysteine levels
>>> because lack of vitamin B12, which is not healthy of cource. (This
>>> does not apply to vegetarians in US because of the wide
>>> supplementation.)
>>> [...]
>>> I know this. However, not eating any fish, which is practically the
>>> only dietary source to provide substantial amounts ov vitamin D adds
>>> to this deficiency *if* you don't supplement.

>>
>> Supplement, if needed.

>
> The more any diet relies on supplementing, the higher are the risks
> also. Everyone following a certain diet is not aware of the need of
> supplementing.
>
>>
>>>> *Vegans, who eat more seeds and nuts, have twice the
>>>> Omega 3 fat level of the average American.* '
>>>> http://www.uea.ac.uk/~x514/HEAL/THEFATSOFLIFE.pdf
>>>> * mine
>>>
>>> The omega-3 fatty acid status of vegetarians is far from being
>>> ideal.

>>
>> It can be..

>
> But in general, it is not.
>
>>
>>> Please, look at the following study (full text available):
>>>
>>> Brenda C Davis and Penny M Kris-Etherton, Achieving optimal
>>> essential fatty acid status in vegetarians: current knowledge and
>>> practical implications. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition,
>>> Vol. 78, No. 3, 640S-646S, September 2003
>>>
>>>

>>

>

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/ful...pec=relevance&resourcetype=1&journalcode=ajcn
>>
>> 7) Consider using a direct source of DHA. Aim for 100-300 mg/d. '
>>> Trying to provide omega-3 fatty acids from vegetarian sources only
>>> increases the risk of prostate cancer. Also the elongation of enough
>>> EPA and DHA is efficient only in young and healthy people. So
>>> alpha-linolenic acid is not ideal source to provide enough EPA and
>>> DHA.

>>
>> 'For those with increased needs for EPA and DHA (eg, pregnant and
>> lactating women) or at greater risk for poor conversion (persons with
>> diabetes, those with neurological disorders, premature infants, the
>> elderly),
>> it may be prudent to ensure that there is a direct source of EPA and
>> DHA.'
>>
>> While they are the original sources of EPA and DHA (fish do not
>> produce
>> long-chain n-3 fatty acids), most are not concentrated sources
>> because of
>> their extremely low total fat content. An important exception is a
>> DHA-rich
>> microalgae that provides 10-40% DHA by dry weight and is currently
>> available in supplement form. When supplementing with a direct DHA
>> source, 100-300 mg/d is recommended. [...]

>
> I know that there are direct vegetarian sources of DHA. But these
> supplements are expensive, more expensive than fish oils. The more any
> diet relies on supplementing, the higher are the risks also. Everyone
> following a certain diet is not aware of the need of supplementing.
> And not everyone can afford it and some people simply don't care.
>
>>> I mostly agree with you, but I think we would do better by adding
>>> some fish oils and/or fatty fish like the Cretans and Okinawan
>>> centenarians.

>>
>> Please see; http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/reporttext.htm

>
> I am aware of the contamination risks but you always have to weigh
> which is the risk/benefit ratio. I think the weight of evidence
> speaks for using either fish oils or fatty fish. Besides fatty acids
> there might be some other substances also in fish which might be
> important for the cognitive functions, e.g. phosphatidylcholine:


Correction: my intension was to speak about phosphatidyl*serine*.

>
> http://www.raysahelian.com/ps.html
>
> Mackerel is one of the richiest dietary sources of
> phosphatidylcholine:


Same as above.

--
Juhana
 
"Ron" <[email protected]> wrote

> Imagine that, I don't want to follow all your rules.


You imagine that appearing to disobey rules makes you special.

> Neither does the vegan.


The vegan breaks his own rules, not mine.
 
"Rene" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "pearl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> pearl wrote:
> >> > "Juhana Harju" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> >> pearl wrote:

> <snip>
> >> > http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et1101/et1101s18.html
> >>
> >> I am also interested in that study. I ordered the new book.

> >
> > Yes. I plan to as well.
> >
> >> http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html
> >>
> >>

>
> Food in China-Variety and Monotony:
>
> "In the 1980s, a group of researchers from Cornell University carried out a
> massive dietary survey, covering all 25 of China's farflung provinces, in an
> effort to determine food consumption and disease patterns. This study is
> often cited as proof that plant-based diets are healthier than those based
> on animal foods like meat and milk. Study director T. Colin Campbell claims
> that the Cornell findings suggest "that a diet high in animal products
> produces disease, and a diet high in grains, vegetables and other plant
> matter produces health."12 But the Cornell survey data, when carefully
> studied, does not support such claims.13


'.. disease rates were significantly associated within a range of dietary
plant food composition that suggested an absence of a disease
prevention threshold. That is, the closer a diet is to an all-plant foods
diet, the greater will be the reduction in the rates of these diseases.'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html

> What the Cornell researchers discovered was that meat intake in China was
> highest in the western border region and very low in a number of
> impoverished areas centering on Sian.


' Across China, diets varied from those rich in plant matter on the one hand
to those very rich in plant matter on the other. People tended to consume
the same diets from year to year and to reside in the same region most of
their lives. Diet, disease, and residency characteristics were reasonably
consistent and constant, that is, over space and over time, within each
survey unit. Across the whole of China, however, dietary and lifestyle
characteristics (Chen et al. 1990) varied considerably, as illustrated in the
widely varying social and economic conditions (Table 2). '
http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Nov98/thermogenesis_paper.html

> They found that meat eaters had lower
> triglycerides and less cirrhosis of the liver-and that they took more
> snuff-but otherwise they found no strong correlation, either negative or
> positive, with meat eating and any disease."


'The research project culminated in a 20-year partnership of Cornell
University, Oxford University, and the Chinese Academy of Preventive
Medicine, a survey of diseases and lifestyle factors in rural China and
Taiwan. More commonly known as the China Study, “this project
eventually produced more than 8000 statistically significant associations
between various dietary factors and disease.”
http://www.thechinastudy.com/about.html

> Taken from: http://www.westonaprice.org/traditional_diets/food_in_china.html


' The main sources of support for the Weston A. Price Foundation
are the dues and contributions of its members. The Foundation
receives no funding from any government agency or private
corporation. Although many of our members are farmers, the
Foundation has no ties with the meat or dairy industry, nor with
any organization promoting these industries. ..
http://www.westonaprice.org/funding.html

'Free range eggs, chickens, meat, soupbones, pet food, rabbit.
...
Veal, beef, chickens and eggs, dairy, cheeses, seasonal produce
...
grass-fed beef and pork
...
nitrite-free bacon, grass-fed beef
...
http://www.westonaprice.org/local_chapters/alexva_resources.html

"Julie and Joe [Morris] contacted me through the Weston Price
foundation and I was glad to know that grass-fed beef was available
in our area. ..."
http://www.alderspring.com/articles/html/latest research.html

> The Okinowan diet sounds much more interesting (towards the bottom of the
> link).


Pass, thank you.

BTW..

'A health-advice book has been recently published based on findings
from the centenarian study in Okinawa, where the average life
expectancy, 81.2 years, is the highest in the world.
http://hmiworld.org/past_issues/March_April_2002/living_100.html

... not. ..

A 12 year study of 34,000 Adventists undertaken by Loma Linda
University Health Center and published in their Archives of Internal
Medicine (July 9, 2001) revealed that Adventists who most closely
followed the recommended way of life* had an average life expectancy
for men of 83.3 years and for women 85.7 years. By comparison,
the Healthy Life Expectancy for top-ranking Japan was 72 years for
men and 77 years for women.'
http://www.ktc.net/NoHypeHealth/dakoma.html
*vegetarian, non-smoking/drinking.

P.S.

OBSERVED-TO-EXPECTED CORONARY
HEART DISEASE MORTALITY IN ADVENTIST MEN
Total Vegetarians 14%
Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians 39%
Meat Users 56%
Phillips et al. (Amer. J. of Clinical Nutrition, 1978, 31: S191-S198)
 
peril wrote:
> "usual suspect" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:D%[email protected]...
>
>>peril wrote:
>>
>>>>><..>
>>>>>
>>>>>>>what else was eaten; whether or
>>>>>>>not the food was contaminated with pesticides, herbicides and
>>>>>>>fungicides; whether the dairy had rBGH in it, etc, etc, etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There's enough monitoring of those agents to be able to eliminate those
>>>>>>as causes. That is, if they consume conventional produce since it's
>>>>>>monitored for pesticide residues. Organic produce isn't tested for
>>>>>>residues despite the amount of pesticides used in its production.
>>>>
>>>>IN THE *UNITED STATES*.
>>>
>>>'Organic
>>>
>>>Strive

>>
>>Theory is demolished by practice. Organic doesn't mean free of
>>pesticides,

>
> Practice demolishes


your stupid theory.

> 'Strive


Keep *striving* all you want -- organic farmers *continue* to use
pesticides, they *continue* to kill animals, they *continue* to use dead
fish products and blood and bone meals for fertilizer, etc. What they
*strive* to do and what they *actually* do are two separate things, dummy.

>>nor does it mean that food is inherently healthier, more
>>nutritious, has more flavor, etc.

>
> Of course it is.


Ipse dixit. Spokespeople for the organic industry does not make such
claims, nor do researchers like Consumers Union.

Even the organic foods industry has been forced to admit that
their products offer no significant nutritional advantages.
Katherine DiMatteo, *spokesperson for the U.S. Organic Trade
Association*, was asked on ABC’s 20/20 (February 4, 2000)
whether organic foods were more nutritious than their
conventional counterparts. She *twice responded* that “*organic
foods are as nutritious as any other product*.” *Not* *more*
*nutritious*, merely “as nutritious.”

The Tufts University Health & Nutrition letter
(http://www.phys.com/b_nutrition/02solutions/10tufts/tuftsqa/organic.htm)
answered the question of whether organic is more nutritious this
way: “*No one knows*. The *question is a difficult one to study*
because of all the factors besides farming methods that could
affect nutritional quality, including soil type and climate. The
evidence from the small body of reliable studies available thus
far *does not show any significant differences between the
nutrient content of organically grown and conventionally grown
food*.”

UC Davis nutritionist Dr. Gail Feenstra says, “As much as I'd
like to say yes, *unfortunately the evidence doesn't show that
it is*. *The studies are equivocal*; there are *no definitive
studies* that show that organic is much better than
conventionally-produced produce."

Consumer Reports, a magazine that strongly favors organic foods
(and has recommended it several times in the past), wrote this
after its own evaluation of organic foods Dec. 15, 1997.
(available at www.consumerreports.com/Special/News/Reports/9712n001.html):
“Yet organic produce tastes no different than ‘conventionally’
grown produce, and *any nutritional differences there might be
between them are likely so subtle as to evade detection*.”

Canada’s Manitoba Agriculture and Food agency
(www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/homeec/cbd03s01.htm) had this to say:
“Nutritional value of plants depends on genetics, availability
of water, amount of sunlight, maturity when picked, how long it
took to come to market and whether it was properly handled and
refrigerated. *Numerous laboratory tests have not found any
substantial nutritional differences in organically and
conventionally grown produce*.”

The Ontario Ministry of Agriculture, Food and Rural Affairs
(http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/research/researchfund/fs2docs/fs7061.htm):

“Various comparisons have been made on the nutrient content of
plants and on other components of nutritional quality. Although
differences can be found they are not consistent among the
different experiments that have been conducted. Varying the soil
nutrients or other growing conditions could conceivably produce
similar results. *There is no conclusive evidence that crops
grown organically are either inferior or superior
nutritionally*. There are major differences between experiments
and among crops within the same experiment.”
http://www.cgfi.org/materials/articles/1999/oct_18_97.htm

Now go rub some tourist's smelly old feet.