REI Safari or Surly Long haul Trucker?



D

datakoll

Guest
WTB means what TB? terrible website, egregious website one visit and
back to Germany
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]m>,
Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mar 29, 6:36 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]m>,
> >
> >
> >
> > landotter <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Mar 29, 1:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Mar 28, 6:13 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > > > > On Mar 28, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > > > > > Alex is kinda odd there: Universal Cycles implies some are eyeletted
> > > > > > some not but then the rim is pinned together not welded. Ideally, the
> > > > > > rim should have multiple chanbers, barrel eyelets and welded with a

> >
> > > > > The Alex Adventurers or DM18s do not have sockets, but they are plenty
> > > > > strong regardless. I would consider sockets necessary on a rim with
> > > > > the "Mavic" brand. For a lighter tourer, a CR18 or Salsa Delgado, as
> > > > > Hank suggested, would be a nice choice.

> >
> > > > seriously, perhaps yawl miss the point. Alex designers did not supply
> > > > "sockets" in the adventurer or 18. Not suppling sockets is a cost/
> > > > profit design feature not a road use consumer feature. Alex decison to
> > > > not "socket" rules out Alex' attempt to sell a cheap rim as a durable
> > > > rim.

> >
> > > Sockets aren't necessary when the rim is made of strong alloy and the
> > > extrusion errs on the side of caution. A DM18 700c tips the scales at
> > > a good 630g, while a skinnier Sun CR-18 is 500g. Who needs sockets
> > > when you got meat? Eyelets are plenty.

> >
> > > Yeah, you can save 100g per wheel with socketed Mavics and pay $50
> > > more per wheel--but what's 100g per end in the grand scheme when you
> > > add tires? Use Paselas instead of Marathons if you want to go light.
> > > You'll save 400g per wheel.

> >
> > And Chalo tells us that the Mavic alloy is functionally
> > inferior to Sun and Alex alloys, thereby eating up some
> > or all of the advantage of sockets.

>
> I have not been able to determine the alloy composition of Sun rims.
> The polished models seem pretty soft, which is to say they are
> probably made from a weaker alloy than 6061-T6. On the other hand
> they are quite ductile compared to recent Mavics. At the same
> absolute strength, a ductile rim beats a brittle one every time.
>
> Most Mavic and Velocity rims use 6106 alloy, the weakest member of the
> 6000 series of aluminum alloy (but one that makes pretty extrusions).
> All Alex rims I know of use 6061-T6 alloy, which is substantially
> stronger.
>
> A few Mavic rims, for instance the Open Pro, use some code-named alloy
> which Mavic boasts to be "20% stronger!" or something to that effect.
> To me, that means it might well be the same 6061-T6 alloy that Alex
> sells for 1/4 the price.


Thanks.

--
Michael Press
 
C

Chalo

Guest
landotter wrote:
>
> Hank wrote:
> >
> > Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
> > series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
> > market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
> > Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

>
> The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
> done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
> old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
> bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
> especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
> neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
> weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.


The single-walled Alex X101 is the only rim I have been able to find
in ISO 305 and 36 hole drilling. That configuration provides barely
enough room to turn a Park spoke wrench. Robust!

That single walled rim would probably be the strongest thing available
in the 16 inch size, were it not for the Alex DM-24 MTB rim in ISO
305. Though it is drilled for only 28 spokes, it still makes the
burliest 16 inch wheel money can buy.

Chalo
 
D

datakoll

Guest
Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety of
multiple chamber disc rims.
the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Chalo Colina wrote:
> landotter wrote:
>> Hank wrote:
>>> Alex does make some lousy rims - notably the single-wall "X-Rim"
>>> series. But OEMs are paying $3 a rim for those, and that's not a
>>> market segment in which Mavic takes part. Comparing apples to apples,
>>> Alex makes equal if not better rims at much lower prices

>> The X-series are fine for re-rimming old 27" bikes for cheap. I've
>> done a couple. They're round and build easily. If you're doing a nice
>> old 27" sporting ride, go for a CR-18, but for a wide rimmed 70s 27"
>> bike with chrome rims, the X404 with the center ridge is perfect,
>> especially matched with a 1 1/4" tire. You know--for a bar bike or
>> neighborhood ride. It's a single wall rim is all, with single wall
>> weaknesses--don't be curb jumping too hard with them.

>
> The single-walled Alex X101 is the only rim I have been able to find
> in ISO 305 and 36 hole drilling. That configuration provides barely
> enough room to turn a Park spoke wrench. Robust!
>

The Alesa 219 is also available in 36-hole, ISO 305-mm size:
<http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=4949&src=froogleUS&currency=USD>.

Not much space to turn a spoke wrench on an ISO 305-mm, 36-spoke wheel:
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/2163925995/> (this is an
Alesa 219 rim) - but then there is not enough space for a suicide
squirrel either!

I do have an ISO 305-mm Alex X101 around also.

> That single walled rim would probably be the strongest thing available
> in the 16 inch size, were it not for the Alex DM-24 MTB rim in ISO
> 305. Though it is drilled for only 28 spokes, it still makes the
> burliest 16 inch wheel money can buy.
>

I have hit potholes at 70+ kph with an ISO 305-mm Alesa 219 rim and
35-305 Primo Comet tire without damage.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
datakoll said:
Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety of
multiple chamber disc rims.
the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?


http://www.alexrims.com/


Look under Cross Trekking Rims and go to the second page.
You will find DM 18 on the right end of the top row on the second page.
Alex makes a wide variety of rims that are suitable for many different riding applications. They seem to have more choices and more options than any other rim manufacturer out there.
As usual, I thank Chalo for helping us discover some valuable solutions that would otherwise be "unknown".
 
D

datakoll

Guest
WELL, THAT WAS 3:44am

Yes I agree, a volume of information-maybe TWO volumes.
when I spoke with the recently deceased on rims, he advised the Rhyno
was obsolete for a single seat due to the weight over a CR-18.So
There!! nahnahnah
With Alex, we see the manufacturer selling a heavier rim without
eyelets, avoiding extra manufacturing costs. Just add washers for the
correct torsion bar effect.
local noise clams nipple gauling on the rim is positive twist control
but we rebutbutbut as the correct torsion bar end joint movement
reduces unwanted twist allowing spokes to self seat.
NOW ! to make the point, pushing it further into the nether parts, if
the weight sum for the DM18, washers 2.0 spokes, 16mm nipples,
thornproof tube, and a heavyweight trek tire are compared to a CR-18
with lightweight trek wheel components-
yawl will begin to see an affect.
then the Sun IS more ductile, easier to retrue after ramming the Primo
Comets down the water meter.
comes down to the same deal. Alex doesn't want to provide eyelets and
have a source for a cheap heavy alloy so no eyelets-anyway there's
another x grams.
Alex-makers of wheels that run like cast iron.
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Mar 30, 2:44 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety of
> multiple chamber disc rims.
> the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
> normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
> the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?


My meat scale scale in converted ounces says the DM18 is 650g. Uff Da!
Woof!
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
landotter said:
On Mar 30, 2:44 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety of
> multiple chamber disc rims.
> the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
> normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
> the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?


My meat scale scale in converted ounces says the DM18 is 650g. Uff Da!
Woof!
On my precision scale, the Alex DM 18 rims that I have (with optional SSE = Stainless Steel Eyelets) ranged from 648 to 653 grams over 4 samples. I like the durability and price + availability: which to me equates to value. I don't like the industrial look and finish of the samples I received, especially how offset they were at the rim joints.
I am now building some Alex Adventurer 700C 36H Black rims. They have a nicer finish and are smoother at the rim joint; possibly because they have machined brake tracks.
I noticed that more mountain bicycle racing teams are being sponsored at least partially by Alex. I hope that their distribution and connections to the cycling world grows as I see them as a viable source for good value product.
I would like to get my hands on some Crostini T 1.1 and T 1.2 rims with SSE to see how they compare to Velocity Synergy and Synergy OC.
 
L

landotter

Guest
On Mar 30, 11:38 am, daveornee <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> landotter Wrote:> On Mar 30, 2:44 am, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > Alex doesn't list a DM18 on that website. Alex does list a variety

> > of
> > > multiple chamber disc rims.
> > > the 29er Alex weighs 620, Sun claims 420.
> > > normally 33% more would send everyone screaming.
> > > the Sun is for a tandem, the Alex is for a Jeep?

>
> > My meat scale scale in converted ounces says the DM18 is 650g. Uff Da!
> > Woof!

>
> On my precision scale, the Alex DM 18 rims that I have (with optional
> SSE = Stainless Steel Eyelets) ranged from 648 to 653 grams over 4
> samples. I like the durability and price + availability: which to me
> equates to value. I don't like the industrial look and finish of the
> samples I received, especially how offset they were at the rim joints.


They aren't pretty, but once built, and the tires mounted, they look
fine and rimmy.

The rim joint on my most recent pair from QBP was slightly offset: 30s
with some emery paper and Bob's yer uncle! One was perfectly round,
the other had a slight warp needing some 1/4 turns to get true. No
biggie.

Nice to hear my meat scale is accurate!

> I am now building some Alex Adventurer 700C 36H Black rims. They have
> a nicer finish and are smoother at the rim joint; possibly because they
> have machined brake tracks.
> I noticed that more mountain bicycle racing teams are being sponsored
> at least partially by Alex. I hope that their distribution and
> connections to the cycling world grows as I see them as a viable source
> for good value product.
> I would like to get my hands on some Crostini T 1.1 and T 1.2 rims with
> SSE to see how they compare to Velocity Synergy and Synergy OC.
>

I've seen those out in the wild as OEM rims. Nice! You'll most likely
have to scour Ebay to find some still attached to a hub.
 
D

datakoll

Guest
A RARE OPPORTUNITY two honest wheel builders in the same place at...

Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR

do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
wheelbuilder ?????

on the race teams (to which the above question should be directed but
not answered) the upper limits of bang-bend are in racing. A NO BEND
rim is better than a lighter sometimes bend rim. AND OFF COURSE the
eyelet question is irrelevant to a racer. In fact racers using Alex
rim is irrelevant to the Trekker, is it snot?

BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?
 
C

Chalo

Guest
On Mar 30, 12:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR
>
> do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
> wheelbuilder ?????


More metal = stiffer rim = more spoke tension change to move the rim
by X amount. But that also means it took a harder blow to bend the
rim by X amount.

In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
it, so ductility doesn't really come into play. The reason that
ductility is a benefit is because a ductile rim gets dinged where a
hard one may crack instead, and because a ductile rim is easier to
iron out with mallet/wrench/pliers before truing and tensioning.

The DM-18 is heavier than the CR-18, but not 200g heavier. Weight
Weenies says 460g claimed, 515g measured. That's 135g less than the
DM-18, or 270g (9.5 oz.) for a bike's worth. And it's one of those
places where the extra beef really works for you.

> BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?


The messenger rim of first choice among my Seattle messenger friends
is the velocity Deep-V-- unless they decided on something else since I
last looked. That rim is rugged but not wide enough for good 29ing.
Weight Weenies says 520g claimed, 580g measured.

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rims

Chalo
 
C

Chalo

Guest
Tom Sherman wrote:
>
> The Alesa 219 is also available in 36-hole, ISO 305-mm size:
> <http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=4949&src=froogleUS&curre...>.


Good to know. I wonder if there's anywhere to get one on this
continent.

> I have hit potholes at 70+ kph with an ISO 305-mm Alesa 219 rim and
> 35-305 Primo Comet tire without damage.


At that speed, it seems to me that you'd be missing most of the depth
of the pothole. Not that I feel like trying it myself.

Chalo
 
D

datakoll

Guest
On Mar 30, 3:54 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 12:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR

>
> > do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
> > wheelbuilder ?????

>
> More metal = stiffer rim = more spoke tension change to move the rim
> by X amount.  But that also means it took a harder blow to bend the
> rim by X amount.
>
> In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
> it, so ductility doesn't really come into play.  The reason that
> ductility is a benefit is because a ductile rim gets dinged where a
> hard one may crack instead, and because a ductile rim is easier to
> iron out with mallet/wrench/pliers before truing and tensioning.
>
> The DM-18 is heavier than the CR-18, but not 200g heavier.  Weight
> Weenies says 460g claimed, 515g measured.  That's 135g less than the
> DM-18, or 270g (9.5 oz.) for a bike's worth.  And it's one of those
> places where the extra beef really works for you.
>
> > BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?

>
> The messenger rim of first choice among my Seattle messenger friends
> is the velocity Deep-V-- unless they decided on something else since I
> last looked.  That rim is rugged but not wide enough for good 29ing.
> Weight Weenies says 520g claimed, 580g measured.
>
> http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rims
>
> Chalo


"In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
it, so ductility doesn't really come into play"

you're pulling my spokes? the sum of (which is the math reality here)
36 spokes radiating from a central pull area to the pull circle out
300mm do not pull strong enough to give a positive or negative affect
on common rim alloys? leading to the alloy as a variable in total
spoke pull?
at realities metalurgy extremes that's false, therefore your
conclusion is false as the alloy's characteristics for in this case
suitability as rim material, move more closely together.
Galleo Galleo


It's odd that riders spending time argueing 10 grams suddenly find 300
grams not worth the effort to grovel over to Weight Weenies for an
"outside opinion"
I guess if WW has reported Sun was understating the weights (not in WW
journalistic favour) yawl wudda repeated that stat?
 
D

datakoll

Guest
that's really wierd about the messengers? I'm told retrueing a bent
Aero is difficult. Whadda they do? toss 'em
 
D

datakoll

Guest
On Mar 30, 5:05 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 30, 3:54 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 30, 12:55 pm, datakoll <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR

>
> > > do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
> > > wheelbuilder ?????

>
> > More metal = stiffer rim = more spoke tension change to move the rim
> > by X amount.  But that also means it took a harder blow to bend the
> > rim by X amount.

>
> > In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
> > it, so ductility doesn't really come into play.  The reason that
> > ductility is a benefit is because a ductile rim gets dinged where a
> > hard one may crack instead, and because a ductile rim is easier to
> > iron out with mallet/wrench/pliers before truing and tensioning.

>
> > The DM-18 is heavier than the CR-18, but not 200g heavier.  Weight
> > Weenies says 460g claimed, 515g measured.  That's 135g less than the
> > DM-18, or 270g (9.5 oz.) for a bike's worth.  And it's one of those
> > places where the extra beef really works for you.

>
> > > BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?

>
> > The messenger rim of first choice among my Seattle messenger friends
> > is the velocity Deep-V-- unless they decided on something else since I
> > last looked.  That rim is rugged but not wide enough for good 29ing.
> > Weight Weenies says 520g claimed, 580g measured.

>
> >http://weightweenies.starbike.com/listings/components.php?type=rims

>
> > Chalo

>
> "In normal circumstances, spokes don't pull a rim far enough to yield
> it, so ductility doesn't really come into play"
>
> you're pulling my spokes? the sum of (which is the math reality here)
> 36 spokes radiating from a central pull area to the pull circle out
> 300mm do not pull strong enough to give a positive or negative affect
> on common rim alloys? leading to the alloy as a variable in total
> spoke pull?
> at realities metalurgy extremes that's false, therefore your
> conclusion is false as the alloy's characteristics for in this case
> suitability as rim material, move more closely together.
> Galleo Galleo
>
> It's odd that riders spending time argueing 10 grams suddenly find 300
> grams not worth the effort to grovel over to Weight Weenies for an
> "outside opinion"
> I guess if WW has reported Sun was understating the weights (not in WW
> journalistic favour) yawl wudda repeated that stat?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


additonally, before wego: the weight 30% differential strongly
suggests significant alloy differences are in fact significant in
reality. The formullah isnot on hand off course but just Chem/Physics
101 says ura blowing steam here
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Chalo Colina wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
>> The Alesa 219 is also available in 36-hole, ISO 305-mm size:
>> <http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=4949&src=froogleUS&curre...>.

>
> Good to know. I wonder if there's anywhere to get one on this
> continent.
>

I could use a source myself, since I will need eventual replacements for
the two Alesa 219 rims I have.

Odd that the ISO 305-mm size is so much more expensive than the ISO
349-mm size:
<http://www.google.com/products?q=Alesa+rims&hl=en&safe=off&ei=qPvvR4O7G6jkigGzmtF6&redir_esc=www5&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wf>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 

daveornee

New Member
Sep 18, 2003
2,763
0
0
datakoll said:
A RARE OPPORTUNITY two honest wheel builders in the same place at...

Alex 18 are harder, less ductile than Sun Rhyno/CR

do yawl see a difference in trueing a hole bent rim-for the group 2
wheelbuilder ?????

on the race teams (to which the above question should be directed but
not answered) the upper limits of bang-bend are in racing. A NO BEND
rim is better than a lighter sometimes bend rim. AND OFF COURSE the
eyelet question is irrelevant to a racer. In fact racers using Alex
rim is irrelevant to the Trekker, is it snot?

BTW- what are messengers using? whatever they can steel ?
Race teams provide feedback to sponsors and ask for things to change in the directions they feel are valuable. Relevance to a Trekker isn't something I can easily evaluate, but I think the exposure in both directions does some good.
I agree with Chalo's explanations on the values of heavier and stiffer rims. I would add that Alex rims like DM 18 and Adventurer seem to last longer when subjected to the normal abrasion from braking.
I have built with every available brand and most available models out there. My most recent good results for over 1,000 wheels came from Velocity USA.
I don't have good long term results with reshaping rims once they have been plastically deformed, thus I consider ductility something of little or no worth to me. I have used Sun CR18, Rhyno Lite, Rhyno, and other versions of Sun rims with mixed results. Fortunately, Sun rims were relatively inexpensive and none were DOA out of the box as I have experienced with a few other manufacturer's products.
I have built many wheels for Chicago messengers. Velocity Deep V seems to be the favorite, especially for single speed and/or Fixie riders.
Chicago messengers that I deal with who favor wider tires seem to be split between Velocity Dyad or Velocity Synergy (now available with OC for rear multispeed and/or disc applications).
 
D

datakoll

Guest
I'm back. As an example: steel rims true waaaaay easier than aluminum
rims. This is snot due to the metal's characteristics but ? tidal
effects? The Ides of March?
 

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