removing broken spoke nipples

  • Thread starter Bellsouth Ijit 2.0
  • Start date



T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ben C wrote:
> > On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my
> >>> chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a
> >>> flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
> >>
> >> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when the
> >>>> spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is the
> >>>> location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield" maximize
> >>>> as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> >>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally
> >>> be intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at
> >>> the elbow.
> >> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress
> >> is on the inside, no?

> >
> > It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile
> > on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the
> > biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

>
> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside
> as well as the outside.
>
> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange
> was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle
> created a tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.


Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short, user
error.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my
> >>> chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a
> >>> flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
> >>
> >> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when the
> >>>> spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is the
> >>>> location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield" maximize
> >>>> as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
> >>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally
> >>> be intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at
> >>> the elbow.
> >> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress
> >> is on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with
> >> lube. another old... as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes
> >> so maybe i have a generic shop then i realized (witnessed as with
> >> the magnifier) the shop suffered generic customers.

> >
> > Stress is everywhere. Exactly what stress causes most elbow
> > failures has been well defined, dozens of times. Do not muddy the
> > water.

>
> no it hasn't. "residual stress" has been alluded to and then seized
> on simply as a vehicle for the great and wonderful egotist to offer
> his solution. but there's no evidence offered, it's all
> suppositional hand waving.


And neither have you offered evidence, only suppositional handwaving of
your own.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> [...]
>
> > > JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's
> > > post of march 9

> >
> > You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim
> > beam, his nemesis.

>
> Nemesis is the messenger of justice and divine retribution. Is this
> what you mean to say?


More an imp than a nemesis.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my
>>>>> chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a
>>>>> flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when the
>>>>>> spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is the
>>>>>> location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield" maximize
>>>>>> as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>>>>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally
>>>>> be intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at
>>>>> the elbow.
>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress
>>>> is on the inside, no?
>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile
>>> on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the
>>> biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside
>> as well as the outside.
>>
>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange
>> was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle
>> created a tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.

>
> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short, user
> error.


you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on this
subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the hub hole is
adequately indented.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Michael Press wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on my
>>>>> chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get into a
>>>>> flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease :)
>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when the
>>>>>> spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is the
>>>>>> location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield" maximize
>>>>>> as an average when the spoke is both straight or near its
>>>>>> unstrung state - yet strung?
>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would generally
>>>>> be intended to be a small amount on the outside of the bend at
>>>>> the elbow.
>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress
>>>> is on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the stress with
>>>> lube. another old... as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes
>>>> so maybe i have a generic shop then i realized (witnessed as with
>>>> the magnifier) the shop suffered generic customers.
>>> Stress is everywhere. Exactly what stress causes most elbow
>>> failures has been well defined, dozens of times. Do not muddy the
>>> water.

>> no it hasn't. "residual stress" has been alluded to and then seized
>> on simply as a vehicle for the great and wonderful egotist to offer
>> his solution. but there's no evidence offered, it's all
>> suppositional hand waving.

>
> And neither have you offered evidence, only suppositional handwaving of
> your own.


you don't read or you don't understand.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

>> [...]
>>
>>>> JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's
>>>> post of march 9
>>> You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim
>>> beam, his nemesis.

>> Nemesis is the messenger of justice and divine retribution. Is this
>> what you mean to say?

>
> More an imp than a nemesis.


neither. i know a thing or two about materials. jobst brandt comes
along and pollutes a field of precision and beauty with fabrication and
witchcraft. i don't like that any more than you'd like a vagrant to
**** on your sofa.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

[...]
>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
>>> on the inside, no?

>>
>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
>> the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
>> risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

>
> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside as
> well as the outside.


What I wrote was unclear and relied on the context. I meant, between the
compressive stress on the inside and the tensile stress on the outside,
it's the latter _of those two_ that's the biggest threat to spoke life.
As discussed before, the stress that may remain in the elbow after the
build is unlikely to be the only factor in spoke life. I take it that
surface finish, bad luck, etc. can also cause fatigue to start on the
inside of the bend.

> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange was
> insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle created a
> tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.


Exactly, and a failure like that is the sort that might be alleviated by
stress relief. I say "might" because I think if there's a big moment at
the elbow spoke life may be reduced anyway, even with stress relief.

> fatigue initiating on the inside is what one might expect from normal
> "aligned" loading.


Because that's where it's in contact with the hub? Could lubing that
interface help then? This is datakoll's suggestion.

>>> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
>>> another old...
>>> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
>>> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
>>> suffered generic customers.

>>
>> I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
>> at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
>> because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
>> nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
>> the nipple.

>
> yes, but just like the bend where a spoke pair interleave, that stuff is
> rarely a problem.


datakoll suggested that that slight bend (at the threads) might prevent
the nipples loosening. I was wondering if on the contrary it might help
them come loose, because it makes the loading on the threads not purely
axial. So with that angle I wondered if spokes might come loose even
without going slack, making threadlock advisable.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> [...]
>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress! stress is
>>>> on the inside, no?
>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and tensile on
>>> the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside that's the biggest
>>> risk for shortening the fatigue life of the spoke.

>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the inside as
>> well as the outside.

>
> What I wrote was unclear and relied on the context. I meant, between the
> compressive stress on the inside and the tensile stress on the outside,
> it's the latter _of those two_ that's the biggest threat to spoke life.


i got that - i was addressing the assumption about alignment.

> As discussed before, the stress that may remain in the elbow after the
> build is unlikely to be the only factor in spoke life. I take it that
> surface finish, bad luck, etc. can also cause fatigue to start on the
> inside of the bend.


indeed.

>
>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke flange was
>> insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit angle created a
>> tensile stress component on the outside of the spoke.

>
> Exactly, and a failure like that is the sort that might be alleviated by
> stress relief. I say "might" because I think if there's a big moment at
> the elbow spoke life may be reduced anyway, even with stress relief.


'stress relief' without quotes, on r.b.t, is massively misunderstood.
"stress relief" as in spoke seating is /not/ "stress relief" in the
metallurgical sense. best to keep quotes.

>
>> fatigue initiating on the inside is what one might expect from normal
>> "aligned" loading.

>
> Because that's where it's in contact with the hub? Could lubing that
> interface help then? This is datakoll's suggestion.


i don't know. i haven't considered it at length because i haven't
considered the significance of whether there's relative sliding of the
interface, and if so, what effect it might have. if corrosion were a
factor, then the answer would easily be a "yes" to grease, but that's
another discussion.

>
>>>> cumulative stress. average the stress with lube.
>>>> another old...
>>>> as i considered: the lbs uses generic spokes so maybe i have a generic
>>>> shop then i realized (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop
>>>> suffered generic customers.
>>> I had a close look at my wheels today and the spokes do leave the nipple
>>> at a bit of an angle. The spoke goes into the rim at a bit of an angle
>>> because of the crossing pattern. There's a slight angle between the
>>> nipple and the rim, and the rest of the angle is between the spoke and
>>> the nipple.

>> yes, but just like the bend where a spoke pair interleave, that stuff is
>> rarely a problem.

>
> datakoll suggested that that slight bend (at the threads) might prevent
> the nipples loosening. I was wondering if on the contrary it might help
> them come loose, because it makes the loading on the threads not purely
> axial. So with that angle I wondered if spokes might come loose even
> without going slack, making threadlock advisable.


the threads are not loaded completely axially in either situation -
theres always a few degrees of misalignment. i don't think it makes
much difference. all i know is that unlocked, spokes that can loosen
will unscrew their spoke nipples. and for a modern highly dished wheel,
instances of spoke loosening are pretty much impossible to eliminate.
 
?
>
> in terms of "stress relief" as a spoke seating exercise, that which
> produced the greatest seating effect is the best. so far, it appears
> that "the mavic method" is the wiener.


what is the "mavic method"?
i visually remember text for the method I'm using as "relief" with the
remainder brandt and sierra plus sheldonbrown parsec 1 but I forgot
who done it. smells like rodale?

the question for me is: what I'm doing works for what I'm doing but
surely the method merits improvement,
>
> as for "stress relief" being a magical cure for fatigue in a material
> that has no endurance limit, that's presumptive nonsense.


well no. if you build a wheel with spokes running off the paths spokes
will be takeing during "break in" or "run in" and under load, the
spokes will suffer more stress, and consequently more time retuning
than if
spokes are placed in the to be used path under load and then "run in"
under load.

a question at this time-do nipples twist perfectly toward those off
radius hub holes or not?
 
J

jim beam

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> ?
>> in terms of "stress relief" as a spoke seating exercise, that which
>> produced the greatest seating effect is the best. so far, it appears
>> that "the mavic method" is the wiener.

>
> what is the "mavic method"?


hub on a block, lean on opposite points of the rim.

> i visually remember text for the method I'm using as "relief" with the
> remainder brandt and sierra plus sheldonbrown parsec 1 but I forgot
> who done it. smells like rodale?


fogel did the research and measured the greatest tension increase.

>
> the question for me is: what I'm doing works for what I'm doing but
> surely the method merits improvement,
>> as for "stress relief" being a magical cure for fatigue in a material
>> that has no endurance limit, that's presumptive nonsense.

>
> well no. if you build a wheel with spokes running off the paths spokes
> will be takeing during "break in" or "run in" and under load, the
> spokes will suffer more stress, and consequently more time retuning
> than if
> spokes are placed in the to be used path under load and then "run in"
> under load.


but that's a matter of spoke seating, not "residual stress" or "stress
relief".

>
> a question at this time-do nipples twist perfectly toward those off
> radius hub holes or not?


no - rims are made to approximate the spoke nipple exit angle with the
hub [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide open
- the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:

[...]
>> Because that's where it's in contact with the hub? Could lubing that
>> interface help then? This is datakoll's suggestion.

>
> i don't know. i haven't considered it at length because i haven't
> considered the significance of whether there's relative sliding of the
> interface, and if so, what effect it might have. if corrosion were a
> factor, then the answer would easily be a "yes" to grease, but that's
> another discussion.


I did find some very small rust patches on the inside of a used
stainless spoke looked at at 60x with a microscope. After reading
Wikipedia for a while I wondered if they might be caused by pressure
points preventing the stainless steel's passivating layer from
passivating properly. Maybe things like that could nucleate fatigue, and
maybe oil/wax/grease on that interface would help with that.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-03-10, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:

> [...]
>>> Because that's where it's in contact with the hub? Could lubing that
>>> interface help then? This is datakoll's suggestion.

>> i don't know. i haven't considered it at length because i haven't
>> considered the significance of whether there's relative sliding of the
>> interface, and if so, what effect it might have. if corrosion were a
>> factor, then the answer would easily be a "yes" to grease, but that's
>> another discussion.

>
> I did find some very small rust patches on the inside of a used
> stainless spoke looked at at 60x with a microscope.


interesting.

> After reading
> Wikipedia for a while I wondered if they might be caused by pressure
> points preventing the stainless steel's passivating layer from
> passivating properly. Maybe things like that could nucleate fatigue, and
> maybe oil/wax/grease on that interface would help with that.


i doubt pressure points - more likely pits which would be stress risers.
but as usual, quality is the key - a better spoke will be more
resistant to that corrosion. oil/grease/wax would help in the event
that additional corrosion resistance is required.
 
rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea of
spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the
hub [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide
open
- the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.

APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or right
as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule?
I can only visualize rim production equipment drilling holes and
setting ferrules straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the
hub center
maybe timken but not mavic and sun

The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed hard
to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is that what
you do? Press till it creaks?
Jesus!
 
J

jim beam

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>
>
> rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea of
> spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the
> hub [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide
> open
> - the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
> specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.
>
> APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or right
> as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule?
> I can only visualize rim production equipment drilling holes and
> setting ferrules straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the
> hub center
> maybe timken but not mavic and sun
>
> The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed hard
> to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is that what
> you do? Press till it creaks?
> Jesus!
>

not till the rim creaks, until the spokes creak - like they do when they
unwind! you already know the noise.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea of
> spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the
> hub [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide
> open
> - the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
> specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.
>
> APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or right
> as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule?
> I can only visualize rim production equipment drilling holes and
> setting ferrules straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the
> hub center
> maybe timken but not mavic and sun


I think the rim holes are aimed fairly accurately towards the centre. Of
course they don't know exactly the hub flange diameter you're using, but
that's a small error.

For 3X (or any pattern other than radial) the spoke is at an angle, not
left or right, but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
That's how spoke pattern comes into it. As far as I know no-one angles
spoke holes for a particular lacing pattern. There's no need since the
error is small and spokes are flexible after all.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Ben C wrote:
> >>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on
> >>>>> my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get
> >>>>> into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease
> >>>>> :)
> >>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>>>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
> >>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is
> >>>>>> the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> >>>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near
> >>>>>> its unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
> >>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
> >>>>> the bend at the elbow.
> >>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
> >>>> stress is on the inside, no?
> >>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
> >>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
> >>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
> >>> spoke.
> >> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
> >> inside as well as the outside.
> >>
> >> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
> >> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit
> >> angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of the
> >> spoke.

> >
> > Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
> > user error.

>
> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the hub
> hole is adequately indented.


I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated that
hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting the spoke
like is necessary. You then changed your tune and claimed that
tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately, which was
also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an "idiot" at
that point and another thread was pretty much dead. Maybe you should
try building a few dozen wheels instead of speculating out of your ****.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Michael Press wrote:
> >>> In article
> >>> <[email protected]>,
> >>> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on
> >>>>> my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get
> >>>>> into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease
> >>>>> :)
> >>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>>>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
> >>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is
> >>>>>> the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
> >>>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near
> >>>>>> its unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
> >>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
> >>>>> the bend at the elbow.
> >>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
> >>>> stress is on the inside, no? cumulative stress. average the
> >>>> stress with lube. another old... as i considered: the lbs uses
> >>>> generic spokes so maybe i have a generic shop then i realized
> >>>> (witnessed as with the magnifier) the shop suffered generic
> >>>> customers.
> >>> Stress is everywhere. Exactly what stress causes most elbow
> >>> failures has been well defined, dozens of times. Do not muddy the
> >>> water.
> >> no it hasn't. "residual stress" has been alluded to and then
> >> seized on simply as a vehicle for the great and wonderful egotist
> >> to offer his solution. but there's no evidence offered, it's all
> >> suppositional hand waving.

> >
> > And neither have you offered evidence, only suppositional
> > handwaving of your own.

>
> you don't read or you don't understand.


LOL! There's our good old jim beam, so convinced of his rightness that
anyone who doesn't agree with him just must not understand the wisdom
and omniscience of ex-metallurgists. Because if the world only
*understood* jim, the world would surely agree with him.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> In article <[email protected]>,
> >> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> [...]
> >>
> >>>> JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB JB-refering to jb's
> >>>> post of march 9
> >>> You've got to be careful here, "JB" is Jobst Brandt, "jb" is jim
> >>> beam, his nemesis.
> >> Nemesis is the messenger of justice and divine retribution. Is
> >> this what you mean to say?

> >
> > More an imp than a nemesis.

>
> neither. i know a thing or two about materials.


So you keep saying.

> jobst brandt comes along and pollutes a field of precision and beauty
> with fabrication and witchcraft. i don't like that any more than
> you'd like a vagrant to **** on your sofa.


Ah, jim, your contributions are priceless. Or is that worthless?
There's such a fine line between the two.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> >
> >
> > rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea
> > of spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the hub [rim
> > could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide open -
> > the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
> > specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.
> >
> > APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or
> > right as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule? I can only visualize
> > rim production equipment drilling holes and setting ferrules
> > straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the hub center
> > maybe timken but not mavic and sun
> >
> > The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed
> > hard to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is that
> > what you do? Press till it creaks? Jesus!
> >

> not till the rim creaks, until the spokes creak - like they do when
> they unwind! you already know the noise.


Commonly called "ping" in the bicycle world. A noise that accomplishes
nothing other than heralding the release of spoke windup. Riding the
wheel around the block will accomplish the same thing.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-10, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

[...]
>> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
>> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the hub
>> hole is adequately indented.

>
> I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated that
> hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting the spoke
> like is necessary. You then changed your tune and claimed that
> tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately, which was
> also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an "idiot" at
> that point and another thread was pretty much dead. Maybe you should
> try building a few dozen wheels instead of speculating out of your ****.


It really does depend on the components you use. The wheels for my road
bike, using Veloce hubs, felt like they needed spoke line correction--
the outbound spokes were bulging out and looked wrong until I pushed
them in. Maybe tensioning would have pulled them straight, I don't know,
I didn't wait to find out.

But recently I built a new front wheel for my mountain bike using a
Deore XT hub, and the spokes just sat right from the beginning, I didn't
do any spoke line correction because it didn't seem necessary.