removing broken spoke nipples

  • Thread starter Bellsouth Ijit 2.0
  • Start date



its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
art arcane incompre wheel building
but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.

why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
do is ride around the block?
that's what i do after using the sissy method: grabbing two adjacent
spokes (if i'm having a good day and there's not 3 adjacent spokes)
giving the bent spoke leaving the nipple, then ride around the block,
retune in two weeks after 250+ miles??

why brutalize the newly built rim/wheel? like it cost $100+

i reckon our (as opposed to the first time builder) discussion exists
on two levels:
on our level, we can build a wheel
and the next level, they believe they can build a perfect wheel-like
the guys working for colorado cyclist

i was told: using the sissy method results in wheel wobble that is the
wheel is round and true but it wobbles. using inspection methods
unavailable hear. and this is the dividing line: wheel wobble
increases friction, reduces speed, increases wasted energy output
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ben C wrote:
>>>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put on
>>>>>>> my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not get
>>>>>>> into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and grease
>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>>>>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
>>>>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q. Is
>>>>>>>> the location manifest in a physical form? Does the "yield"
>>>>>>>> maximize as an average when the spoke is both straight or near
>>>>>>>> its unstrung state - yet strung?
>>>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
>>>>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
>>>>>>> the bend at the elbow.
>>>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
>>>>>> stress is on the inside, no?
>>>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
>>>>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
>>>>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
>>>>> spoke.
>>>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
>>>> inside as well as the outside.
>>>>
>>>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
>>>> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net exit
>>>> angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of the
>>>> spoke.
>>> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
>>> user error.

>> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
>> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the hub
>> hole is adequately indented.

>
> I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated that
> hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting the spoke
> like is necessary.


eh? you really don't pay attention do you!!! or you just see what you
want to see. wow.

> You then changed your tune and claimed that
> tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately, which was
> also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an "idiot" at
> that point and another thread was pretty much dead. Maybe you should
> try building a few dozen wheels instead of speculating out of your ****.


timmy, you're still not a candidate for the krygowski award for
contributions to technology, but you're getting pretty freakin' close if
you can't read most things and misinterpret the little that you do.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea
>>> of spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the hub [rim
>>> could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide open -
>>> the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd need a rim
>>> specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that. and hub size.
>>>
>>> APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or
>>> right as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule? I can only visualize
>>> rim production equipment drilling holes and setting ferrules
>>> straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the hub center
>>> maybe timken but not mavic and sun
>>>
>>> The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed
>>> hard to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is that
>>> what you do? Press till it creaks? Jesus!
>>>

>> not till the rim creaks, until the spokes creak - like they do when
>> they unwind! you already know the noise.

>
> Commonly called "ping" in the bicycle world. A noise that accomplishes
> nothing other than heralding the release of spoke windup. Riding the
> wheel around the block will accomplish the same thing.


wow, another pricelessly valuable contribution to the world of bike
technology. apart from the bit about "accomplishes nothing" being wrong
[it reduces windup, a potential factor in nipple unscrewing]. and that
you don't want to do it riding around the block since it's frequently
accompanied but the need for further true correction. but you didn't
want to make a tech contribution, you just wanted to contradict.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
> art arcane incompre wheel building
> but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
>
> why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
> do is ride around the block?


don't pay attention that that ****. i've tried that "timmy method",
[checking jobstian b.s. about simple spoke tension yielding the hub
holes all that they can be] and i can think of nothing more retarded
than having the wheel go out of true in one block, coming home,
re-truing, re-riding, re-truing half a dozen times until it stops. just
over-tension in the wheel stand like everybody else. if you do it
right, you never have to touch the wheel again - unlike the timmy method.

> that's what i do after using the sissy method: grabbing two adjacent
> spokes (if i'm having a good day and there's not 3 adjacent spokes)
> giving the bent spoke leaving the nipple, then ride around the block,
> retune in two weeks after 250+ miles??


see above.

>
> why brutalize the newly built rim/wheel? like it cost $100+
>
> i reckon our (as opposed to the first time builder) discussion exists
> on two levels:
> on our level, we can build a wheel
> and the next level, they believe they can build a perfect wheel-like
> the guys working for colorado cyclist
>
> i was told: using the sissy method results in wheel wobble that is the
> wheel is round and true but it wobbles. using inspection methods
> unavailable hear.


lol!

> and this is the dividing line: wheel wobble
> increases friction, reduces speed, increases wasted energy output
>
 
Limited Operational Life

i spent $35, JOOC, on an LBS wheel tuneup, caws the rim had a dent in
it. LBS overtensioned the bump and twang snap went the $35.
you never have to touch the wheel again nor the $35

how can wheel builing be learned if you never touch the wheel again?

anyway, that's the sissy method.

must be rodale: i remember a stocky short guy in a sweatshirt standing
in front of a shack in the woods slamming the wheel up and down on a
workbench's edge like somekinda madman

i'll research the spoke line. maybe bang the nipples over with a rock
maple punch.

getta laser, sight down the spoke line. attach a digital readout.

slam the rig into the first pothole...
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2007-03-10, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> [...]
> >> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
> >> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the
> >> hub hole is adequately indented.

> >
> > I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated
> > that hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting
> > the spoke like is necessary. You then changed your tune and
> > claimed that tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line
> > adequately, which was also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called
> > Krygowski an "idiot" at that point and another thread was pretty
> > much dead. Maybe you should try building a few dozen wheels
> > instead of speculating out of your ****.

>
> It really does depend on the components you use. The wheels for my
> road bike, using Veloce hubs, felt like they needed spoke line
> correction-- the outbound spokes were bulging out and looked wrong
> until I pushed them in. Maybe tensioning would have pulled them
> straight, I don't know, I didn't wait to find out.
>
> But recently I built a new front wheel for my mountain bike using a
> Deore XT hub, and the spokes just sat right from the beginning, I
> didn't do any spoke line correction because it didn't seem necessary.


Which makes sense, of course, and perhaps jim's range of experience with
hubs is limited enough that he's only dealt with hubs like your XTs.
The hubs I normally use have required spoke line correction (Phil Wood,
Sun Tour, Campy- although spoke correction on the drive side of Campy
cassette hubs is unnecessary IME; I can't recall with the last Shimano
hub I built up into a wheel, an Ultegra 8/9 sp).
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Ben C wrote:
> >>>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put
> >>>>>>> on my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not
> >>>>>>> get into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and
> >>>>>>> grease
> >>>>>>> :)
> >>>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>>>>>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
> >>>>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q.
> >>>>>>>> Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the
> >>>>>>>> "yield" maximize as an average when the spoke is both
> >>>>>>>> straight or near its unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
> >>>>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
> >>>>>>> the bend at the elbow.
> >>>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
> >>>>>> stress is on the inside, no?
> >>>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
> >>>>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
> >>>>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
> >>>>> spoke.
> >>>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
> >>>> inside as well as the outside.
> >>>>
> >>>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
> >>>> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net
> >>>> exit angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of
> >>>> the spoke.
> >>> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
> >>> user error.
> >> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
> >> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the
> >> hub hole is adequately indented.

> >
> > I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated
> > that hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting
> > the spoke like is necessary.

>
> eh? you really don't pay attention do you!!! or you just see what
> you want to see. wow.


I see what's plainly in front of me in reality, rather that what you
speculate reality ought to be.

> > You then changed your tune and claimed that
> > tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately,
> > which was also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an
> > "idiot" at that point and another thread was pretty much dead.
> > Maybe you should try building a few dozen wheels instead of
> > speculating out of your ****.

>
> timmy, you're still not a candidate for the krygowski award for
> contributions to technology, but you're getting pretty freakin' close
> if you can't read most things and misinterpret the little that you
> do.


There you go again, beamish boy. So intent on being right, even when
you're clueless.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> [email protected] wrote:
> >>>
> >>> rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea
> >>> of spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the hub
> >>> [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide
> >>> open - the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd
> >>> need a rim specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that.
> >>> and hub size.
> >>>
> >>> APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or
> >>> right as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule? I can only
> >>> visualize rim production equipment drilling holes and setting
> >>> ferrules straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the
> >>> hub center maybe timken but not mavic and sun
> >>>
> >>> The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed
> >>> hard to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is
> >>> that what you do? Press till it creaks? Jesus!
> >>>
> >> not till the rim creaks, until the spokes creak - like they do
> >> when they unwind! you already know the noise.

> >
> > Commonly called "ping" in the bicycle world. A noise that
> > accomplishes nothing other than heralding the release of spoke
> > windup. Riding the wheel around the block will accomplish the same
> > thing.

>
> wow, another pricelessly valuable contribution to the world of bike
> technology. apart from the bit about "accomplishes nothing" being
> wrong [it reduces windup, a potential factor in nipple unscrewing].
> and that you don't want to do it riding around the block since it's
> frequently accompanied but the need for further true correction. but
> you didn't want to make a tech contribution, you just wanted to
> contradict.


Only because you're wrong. You demonstrate yet again that you haven't
got a clue how wheels are actually built. Have you *ever* built a
wheel? The "Mavic method" you tout so highly will certainly unwind
spokes (of course, competent use of a spoke wrench will minimize spoke
windup in the first place). And when those spokes have unwound using
the "Mavic method", you'll have to touch up the truing again. Releasing
the false tension caused by spoke windup will put the wheel out of true,
whether you accomplish that by riding the bike a few yards or
momentarily detensioning the spokes by pushing on the hub. That's why
it's better to use a spoke wrench correctly.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] wrote:

> its like a dog chasing his tail!!!


Welcome to conversations with jim beam.

> art arcane incompre wheel building


There's nothing arcane about building wheels. It's methodical and
straightforward.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > its like a dog chasing his tail!!! art arcane incompre wheel
> > building but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
> >
> > why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya
> > gotta do is ride around the block?

>
> don't pay attention that that ****. i've tried that "timmy method",
> [checking jobstian b.s. about simple spoke tension yielding the hub
> holes all that they can be] and i can think of nothing more retarded
> than having the wheel go out of true in one block, coming home,
> re-truing, re-riding, re-truing half a dozen times until it stops.
> just over-tension in the wheel stand like everybody else. if you do
> it right, you never have to touch the wheel again - unlike the timmy
> method.


Good grief. If that's how it goes for you, then you really are a
hopelessly incompetent wheel builder. I build my wheels. I go for a
ride. There's not more than a couple of pings and the wheel doesn't go
out of true. But then I have been building wheels more than 30 years.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> rims are made to APPROXIMATE ( when "the manufacturer has no idea
>>>>> of spoking pattern"?) the spoke nipple exit angle with the hub
>>>>> [rim could be front or rear], and the angle wrt radius is wide
>>>>> open - the manufacturer has no idea of spoking pattern. you'd
>>>>> need a rim specific to lacing and front/rear to achieve that.
>>>>> and hub size.
>>>>>
>>>>> APPROXIMATE? The ferrule is made allowing nipple to seat left or
>>>>> right as spoke pulls nipple down onto ferrule? I can only
>>>>> visualize rim production equipment drilling holes and setting
>>>>> ferrules straight toward rim's center point, theoretically the
>>>>> hub center maybe timken but not mavic and sun
>>>>>
>>>>> The text I read on the "mavic method" said rim shall be pressed
>>>>> hard to the point rim/spoke begin groaning and carrying on: is
>>>>> that what you do? Press till it creaks? Jesus!
>>>>>
>>>> not till the rim creaks, until the spokes creak - like they do
>>>> when they unwind! you already know the noise.
>>> Commonly called "ping" in the bicycle world. A noise that
>>> accomplishes nothing other than heralding the release of spoke
>>> windup. Riding the wheel around the block will accomplish the same
>>> thing.

>> wow, another pricelessly valuable contribution to the world of bike
>> technology. apart from the bit about "accomplishes nothing" being
>> wrong [it reduces windup, a potential factor in nipple unscrewing].
>> and that you don't want to do it riding around the block since it's
>> frequently accompanied but the need for further true correction. but
>> you didn't want to make a tech contribution, you just wanted to
>> contradict.

>
> Only because you're wrong.


what's wrong? that you've never contributed anything?

> You demonstrate yet again that you haven't
> got a clue how wheels are actually built. Have you *ever* built a
> wheel? The "Mavic method" you tout so highly will certainly unwind
> spokes (of course, competent use of a spoke wrench will minimize spoke
> windup in the first place). And when those spokes have unwound using
> the "Mavic method", you'll have to touch up the truing again. Releasing
> the false tension caused by spoke windup will put the wheel out of true,
> whether you accomplish that by riding the bike a few yards or
> momentarily detensioning the spokes by pushing on the hub. That's why
> it's better to use a spoke wrench correctly.


dang. busted. you're right, i've never built a wheel. i've never even
ridden a bike actually. but i'm one hot-diggety genius with the gimp.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> its like a dog chasing his tail!!! art arcane incompre wheel
>>> building but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
>>>
>>> why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya
>>> gotta do is ride around the block?

>> don't pay attention that that ****. i've tried that "timmy method",
>> [checking jobstian b.s. about simple spoke tension yielding the hub
>> holes all that they can be] and i can think of nothing more retarded
>> than having the wheel go out of true in one block, coming home,
>> re-truing, re-riding, re-truing half a dozen times until it stops.
>> just over-tension in the wheel stand like everybody else. if you do
>> it right, you never have to touch the wheel again - unlike the timmy
>> method.

>
> Good grief. If that's how it goes for you, then you really are a
> hopelessly incompetent wheel builder.


you're so right.

> I build my wheels.


i don't.

> I go for a
> ride.


i don't.

> There's not more than a couple of pings and the wheel doesn't go
> out of true.


funny. my wheels don't ping. i must be doing something wrong. oops,
but i don't ride. or build. my mistake.

> But then I have been building wheels more than 30 years.


of course you have.
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Ben C wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put
>>>>>>>>> on my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not
>>>>>>>>> get into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and
>>>>>>>>> grease
>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>>>>>>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
>>>>>>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q.
>>>>>>>>>> Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the
>>>>>>>>>> "yield" maximize as an average when the spoke is both
>>>>>>>>>> straight or near its unstrung state - yet strung?
>>>>>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
>>>>>>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
>>>>>>>>> the bend at the elbow.
>>>>>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
>>>>>>>> stress is on the inside, no?
>>>>>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
>>>>>>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
>>>>>>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
>>>>>>> spoke.
>>>>>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
>>>>>> inside as well as the outside.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
>>>>>> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net
>>>>>> exit angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of
>>>>>> the spoke.
>>>>> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
>>>>> user error.
>>>> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
>>>> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the
>>>> hub hole is adequately indented.
>>> I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated
>>> that hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting
>>> the spoke like is necessary.

>> eh? you really don't pay attention do you!!! or you just see what
>> you want to see. wow.

>
> I see what's plainly in front of me in reality, rather that what you
> speculate reality ought to be.


so you see what's in front of you? what is steel then timmy? come on.
describe it to me. give me your reality.

>
>>> You then changed your tune and claimed that
>>> tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately,
>>> which was also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an
>>> "idiot" at that point and another thread was pretty much dead.
>>> Maybe you should try building a few dozen wheels instead of
>>> speculating out of your ****.

>> timmy, you're still not a candidate for the krygowski award for
>> contributions to technology, but you're getting pretty freakin' close
>> if you can't read most things and misinterpret the little that you
>> do.

>
> There you go again, beamish boy. So intent on being right, even when
> you're clueless.


sure i am. but at least i can do math.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
> art arcane incompre wheel building
> but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
>
> why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
> do is ride around the block?


In theory riding around the block won't stress relieve. For that you
need to overload and then relax. Riding around the block is just normal
load, not overload. I think Tim was saying it will however seat the
elbows in the hub.

Those of us who are not true believers in stress relief are inclined to
think the benefits of the Mavic method include seating and taking out
windup, and that these may be more significant than stress relieving.
Tim I think was saying that if we did live in that possible world, the
Mavic method would be futile because spokes seat when you ride round the
block anyway.

The stress relief theory is OK. Where it all starts to get onto thin ice
is the story that nothing else can possibly lead to spoke failure
besides stress remaining in the spoke after fabrication or build, and
that stress relief practices cannot possibly have any other beneficial
sideeffects.

We were starting off down some of those garden paths.

And why not lube the hub holes? We need more science and proof before we
can say for sure it does anything, but we don't have much of that for
the other theories either.

> that's what i do after using the sissy method: grabbing two adjacent
> spokes (if i'm having a good day and there's not 3 adjacent spokes)
> giving the bent spoke leaving the nipple, then ride around the block,
> retune in two weeks after 250+ miles??
>
> why brutalize the newly built rim/wheel? like it cost $100+


I'm not the expert here, but I don't brutalize the wheel to get the
demons out either. I just give it a firm push on the block (Mavic
method) to check there's no pinging.

[...]
> i was told: using the sissy method results in wheel wobble that is the
> wheel is round and true but it wobbles. using inspection methods
> unavailable hear. and this is the dividing line: wheel wobble
> increases friction, reduces speed, increases wasted energy output


Sounds like BS to me. If a wheel looks round and true then it is for all
practical purposes.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 2007-03-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> > its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
> > art arcane incompre wheel building
> > but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
> >
> > why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
> > do is ride around the block?

>
> In theory riding around the block won't stress relieve. For that you
> need to overload and then relax. Riding around the block is just normal
> load, not overload. I think Tim was saying it will however seat the
> elbows in the hub.


No, I was saying that the "Mavic method" espoused by jim beam will cause
spoke windup to be released and little if anything else. It won't
accomplish stress relief nor is it likely to accomplish much by way of
spoke seating.

> Those of us who are not true believers in stress relief are inclined to
> think the benefits of the Mavic method include seating and taking out
> windup, and that these may be more significant than stress relieving.
> Tim I think was saying that if we did live in that possible world, the
> Mavic method would be futile because spokes seat when you ride round the
> block anyway.


Riding around the block doesn't increase spoke tension, so it won't
accomplish spoke seating. As the spokes are unloaded by passing through
the load affected zone between the hub and the ground, spoke windup is
released. That's all that pinging noise is.

> The stress relief theory is OK. Where it all starts to get onto thin ice
> is the story that nothing else can possibly lead to spoke failure
> besides stress remaining in the spoke after fabrication or build, and
> that stress relief practices cannot possibly have any other beneficial
> sideeffects.


Neither of those things have been claimed.

> We were starting off down some of those garden paths.


Welcome to Usenet.

> And why not lube the hub holes? We need more science and proof before we
> can say for sure it does anything, but we don't have much of that for
> the other theories either.


Huh? This is starting to sound like the delay tactics employed to fend
off taking action to reduce climate change.
 
T

Tim McNamara

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Tim McNamara wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <urO[email protected]>,
> >>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Ben C wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put
> >>>>>>>>> on my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not
> >>>>>>>>> get into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and
> >>>>>>>>> grease
> >>>>>>>>> :)
> >>>>>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
> >>>>>>>>> Now that is interesting.
> >>>>>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
> >>>>>>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q.
> >>>>>>>>>> Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the
> >>>>>>>>>> "yield" maximize as an average when the spoke is both
> >>>>>>>>>> straight or near its unstrung state - yet strung?
> >>>>>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
> >>>>>>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
> >>>>>>>>> the bend at the elbow.
> >>>>>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
> >>>>>>>> stress is on the inside, no?
> >>>>>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
> >>>>>>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
> >>>>>>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
> >>>>>>> spoke.
> >>>>>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
> >>>>>> inside as well as the outside.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
> >>>>>> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net
> >>>>>> exit angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of
> >>>>>> the spoke.
> >>>>> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
> >>>>> user error.
> >>>> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
> >>>> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the
> >>>> hub hole is adequately indented.
> >>> I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated
> >>> that hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting
> >>> the spoke like is necessary.
> >> eh? you really don't pay attention do you!!! or you just see what
> >> you want to see. wow.

> >
> > I see what's plainly in front of me in reality, rather that what you
> > speculate reality ought to be.

>
> so you see what's in front of you? what is steel then timmy? come on.
> describe it to me. give me your reality.


LOL. Nice try.

> >>> You then changed your tune and claimed that
> >>> tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately,
> >>> which was also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an
> >>> "idiot" at that point and another thread was pretty much dead.
> >>> Maybe you should try building a few dozen wheels instead of
> >>> speculating out of your ****.
> >> timmy, you're still not a candidate for the krygowski award for
> >> contributions to technology, but you're getting pretty freakin' close
> >> if you can't read most things and misinterpret the little that you
> >> do.

> >
> > There you go again, beamish boy. So intent on being right, even when
> > you're clueless.

>
> sure i am. but at least i can do math.


Yet your grasp of logic is so poor.
 
B

Ben C

Guest
On 2007-03-11, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 2007-03-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
>> > art arcane incompre wheel building
>> > but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
>> >
>> > why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
>> > do is ride around the block?

>>
>> In theory riding around the block won't stress relieve. For that you
>> need to overload and then relax. Riding around the block is just normal
>> load, not overload. I think Tim was saying it will however seat the
>> elbows in the hub.

>
> No, I was saying that the "Mavic method" espoused by jim beam will cause
> spoke windup to be released and little if anything else. It won't
> accomplish stress relief nor is it likely to accomplish much by way of
> spoke seating.


Sorry, yes I lost track there.

>> Those of us who are not true believers in stress relief are inclined to
>> think the benefits of the Mavic method include seating and taking out
>> windup, and that these may be more significant than stress relieving.
>> Tim I think was saying that if we did live in that possible world, the
>> Mavic method would be futile because spokes seat when you ride round the
>> block anyway.

>
> Riding around the block doesn't increase spoke tension, so it won't
> accomplish spoke seating. As the spokes are unloaded by passing through
> the load affected zone between the hub and the ground, spoke windup is
> released. That's all that pinging noise is.


Yes, and the Mavic method does a similar job-- unloading tension on the
lower side of the wheel, resulting in pinging and unwinding.

I do think it's advisable to get that pinging out before you ride off
round the block though. And if you lube the nipples and overturn and
turn back when tensioning, you don't get much pinging anyway.

>> The stress relief theory is OK. Where it all starts to get onto thin ice
>> is the story that nothing else can possibly lead to spoke failure
>> besides stress remaining in the spoke after fabrication or build, and
>> that stress relief practices cannot possibly have any other beneficial
>> sideeffects.

>
> Neither of those things have been claimed.


Thank goodness for that then!
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Ben C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 2007-03-11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> its like a dog chasing his tail!!!
>>> art arcane incompre wheel building
>>> but in the plane of the wheel, if you see what I mean.
>>>
>>> why all the hubbub about stress relief and spokeline if all ya gotta
>>> do is ride around the block?

>> In theory riding around the block won't stress relieve. For that you
>> need to overload and then relax. Riding around the block is just normal
>> load, not overload. I think Tim was saying it will however seat the
>> elbows in the hub.

>
> No, I was saying that the "Mavic method" espoused by jim beam will cause
> spoke windup to be released and little if anything else. It won't
> accomplish stress relief nor is it likely to accomplish much by way of
> spoke seating.


don't let your ignorance or inability to learn get in the way of your
mouth will you timmy. it's engineering 101 - yielding. if the spoke
hole yields with a certain load, increasing it with over-tension is
going to yield it even more! but you're the guy with the math problem,
so while i don't expect /you/ to grasp that concept, don't try to
propagate your ignorance.

>
>> Those of us who are not true believers in stress relief are inclined to
>> think the benefits of the Mavic method include seating and taking out
>> windup, and that these may be more significant than stress relieving.
>> Tim I think was saying that if we did live in that possible world, the
>> Mavic method would be futile because spokes seat when you ride round the
>> block anyway.

>
> Riding around the block doesn't increase spoke tension, so it won't
> accomplish spoke seating.

<snip remaining ****>

eh? lateral load will increase spoke tension. you ever get out of the
saddle much?
 
J

jim beam

Guest
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>>>> jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ben C wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2007-03-10, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> You mentioned "Finish Line" before-- that's the stuff I put
>>>>>>>>>>> on my chain. I thought it was basically oil. But let's not
>>>>>>>>>>> get into a flame war on the difference between oil, wax and
>>>>>>>>>>> grease
>>>>>>>>>>> :)
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.finishlineusa.com/products/teflon-plus-lube.htm
>>>>>>>>>>> Now that is interesting.
>>>>>>>>>>>> " The change occurs at any high tensile stress location when
>>>>>>>>>>>> the spoke is over-tensioned (over its static tension)." Q.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is the location manifest in a physical form? Does the
>>>>>>>>>>>> "yield" maximize as an average when the spoke is both
>>>>>>>>>>>> straight or near its unstrung state - yet strung?
>>>>>>>>>>> Wait for JB to answer, but I think the yield here would
>>>>>>>>>>> generally be intended to be a small amount on the outside of
>>>>>>>>>>> the bend at the elbow.
>>>>>>>>>> on the outside! heheheheh wait! lube the inside, progress!
>>>>>>>>>> stress is on the inside, no?
>>>>>>>>> It's on both sides, but it's compressive on the inside and
>>>>>>>>> tensile on the outside. It's the tensile stress on the outside
>>>>>>>>> that's the biggest risk for shortening the fatigue life of the
>>>>>>>>> spoke.
>>>>>>>> i've got broken spokes that have fatigue initiating from the
>>>>>>>> inside as well as the outside.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> my thoughts are that if it's broken on the outside, the spoke
>>>>>>>> flange was insufficiently indented by over-stress, so the net
>>>>>>>> exit angle created a tensile stress component on the outside of
>>>>>>>> the spoke.
>>>>>>> Or you just failed to correct the spoke line properly. In short,
>>>>>>> user error.
>>>>>> you don't understand geometry or you didn't read multiple posts on
>>>>>> this subject. "correcting the spoke line" is unnecessary if the
>>>>>> hub hole is adequately indented.
>>>>> I participated in that thread, jim, in which it was demonstrated
>>>>> that hub flanges don't deform enough and that manually correcting
>>>>> the spoke like is necessary.
>>>> eh? you really don't pay attention do you!!! or you just see what
>>>> you want to see. wow.
>>> I see what's plainly in front of me in reality, rather that what you
>>> speculate reality ought to be.

>> so you see what's in front of you? what is steel then timmy? come on.
>> describe it to me. give me your reality.

>
> LOL. Nice try.


no, i mean it. you say "I see what's plainly in front of me in reality,
rather that what you speculate reality ought to be." now, go ahead and
stand by your statement. what is your reality of steel? you use it
every day. it's integral to your life. but what is it timmy? share
the reality that's "plainly in front of you".

>
>>>>> You then changed your tune and claimed that
>>>>> tensioning the spokes would correct the spoke line adequately,
>>>>> which was also shown to be incorrect. IIRC you called Krygowski an
>>>>> "idiot" at that point and another thread was pretty much dead.
>>>>> Maybe you should try building a few dozen wheels instead of
>>>>> speculating out of your ****.
>>>> timmy, you're still not a candidate for the krygowski award for
>>>> contributions to technology, but you're getting pretty freakin' close
>>>> if you can't read most things and misinterpret the little that you
>>>> do.
>>> There you go again, beamish boy. So intent on being right, even when
>>> you're clueless.

>> sure i am. but at least i can do math.

>
> Yet your grasp of logic is so poor.


sure it is. i can't reason **** for a living.