Replacing cartridge bearings on outboard type bottom brackets

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 25, 5:49 pm, A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Ozark Bicycle <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>http://www2.trekbikes.com/madone/technology/efficiency/#more
> >> What do you expect them to say?? Something like: "We did this to lower
> >> our parts and labor costs. The fact that the frame might be absolutely
> >> useless in the future is of no concern to us. In fact, it probably
> >> means we get to sell all you credulous morons a new frame sooner
> >> rather than later." ???
>
> Doug Taylor wrote:
> > Who cares what they SAY? Any cretin (except apparently one from the
> > Ozarks) can look at the pretty photos and figure out that the design
> > is simpler, more elegant, lighter, and requires less parts than any
> > standard bb.
> > And how do figure the frame could ever become useless? There are no
> > threads, it requires no bb, it fits most (all?) outboard bearing
> > cranks. Are you on crack or just retarded?
>
> Perhaps he's a former Lambert-Viscount-Trusty owner ( New! Improved
> press-in BB! New lighter thinwall tube construction! New cast aluminum
> fork!)
> Perhaps he had a 9/16" stem Klein bike (new! improved!)
> Maybe an EVO quill fork? (New! Improved! More rigid!)
> Maybe a version I Shimano spline BB?(Sir, that noise your tandem BB can
> be rectified for about $350)
>
> Many riders are reasonably cynical about 'improvements' from FFS-PPS to
> press-in BB systems.
>
> Surely, as many riders will pay extra for new untested products as avoid
> them and so progress marches, Schumpeter-like, onward. Write back in ten
> years to see how these Treks work out. If no one ever danced outside
> accepted proven designs we'd never get anywhere.
> --

Sure, but, what does the Madone BB design do for the end user, other
than save a little weight at the risk of a frame that may become
useless due to it's BB design?

Sure, it's all good news for Trek: cheaper parts cost, lower labor
costs, a leg up in the weight weenie sweepstakes and a ton of new hype
and marketing BS.

But it does almost nothing for the consumer.

 

[Doug Taylor]

On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:41:55 -0700, Jay Beattie
<[email protected]> wrote:


>I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
>the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
>common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
>mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
>replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
>bearings **** out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
>order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
>for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
>your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
>Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
>the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
>on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
>it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.

Thank you. Someone else who knows how to think.

Anybody who wrenches their own equipment knows that the Trek
integrated bb frame design makes a ton of sense. I'm not going out on
any limb extolling the virtues of a design that industry tech guru
Lennard Zinn thinks is revolutionary.

In 3 years every manufacturer of carbon frames will produce at least
one model with the same design, if not the majority. It's simple
common sense.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 26, 8:29 am, Doug Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 16:41:55 -0700, Jay Beattie
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >I don't think it is so dire for two reasons: (1) the Madone relies on
> >the dominant technology -- the two piece crank, and (2) the frame uses
> >common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> >mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> >replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> >bearings **** out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> >order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> >for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> >your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> >Trek has a lifetime warranty on its frame and it will be around in to
> >the foreseeable future. If I were going to take a chance, it would be
> >on a Trek. But the Madone does not appear to be all that chancy since
> >it uses pretty common stuff. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> Thank you. Someone else who knows how to think.
>
> Anybody who wrenches their own equipment knows that the Trek
> integrated bb frame design makes a ton of sense. I'm not going out on
> any limb extolling the virtues of a design that industry tech guru
> Lennard Zinn thinks is revolutionary.

"industry tech guru Lennard Zinn"? LOL!!! I guess he is, to a bicycle
sheeple. IMO, try "bike biz shill Lennard Zinn", it's much more
accurate.


>
> In 3 years every manufacturer of carbon frames will produce at least
> one model with the same design, if not the majority. It's simple
> common sense.

>From a manufacturer's point of view, you bet it is!! Cheaper to make,
sells for more - they love it!

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Jul 25, 6:24 pm, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:
<snip>

> Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
> be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
> told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?

You are absolutely right: we are whirling through too many
"standards," but the industry clearly has moved on to the two piece
crank whether we like it or not. If you believe we will oscillate
back to the solid spindle, cup and ball or cartridge bottom bracket,
then you do not want to buy the Madone. I don't think we will go
back. Even Campy has moved on.

> At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
> if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
> spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?

The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges, you just have to hope
that the crank spindle "standard" does not change. If it does, I
could easily see an adapter -- a pipe spindle with snap clip retainers
and a square taper (?) end -- like the old Klein BBs (except with
standard bearings).

>
> >, and (2) the frame uses
> > common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> > mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> > replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> > bearings **** out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> > order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> > for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> > your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
> style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.

Unless an adapter is made like I said above. People adapted with
Kleins, Viscounts and other BB shells with no threads and pressed in
bearings (although standard width shells). I don't think Trek would
leave its customers high and dry. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Doug Taylor]

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:51:40 -0700, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"industry tech guru Lennard Zinn"? LOL!!! I guess he is, to a bicycle
>sheeple. IMO, try "bike biz shill Lennard Zinn", it's much more
>accurate.

We'll see what happens 2-3 years down the road.

Will integrated bb's become the norm?

Will "bike biz shill" Lennard Zinn and the "naive" people who agree
with him prove correct?

Or the in-bred wool jersey wearing dipshit retrogrouch from the
Ozarks? Whose website boasts: 100% Service and 0% "Attitude".

Talk about irony.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 26, 10:42 am, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 6:24 pm, Ozark Bicycle<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Hot too many years ago, either Octalink or ISIS would have appeared to
> > be "the dominant technology", right? What was that you were recently
> > told by FSA regarding ISIS BBs?
>
> You are absolutely right: we are whirling through too many
> "standards," but the industry clearly has moved on to the two piece
> crank whether we like it or not. If you believe we will oscillate
> back to the solid spindle, cup and ball or cartridge bottom bracket,
> then you do not want to buy the Madone. I don't think we will go
> back. Even Campy has moved on.
>
> > At least both Octalink and ISIS used standard BB dimensions. Imagine
> > if someone had designed a frame to only accept Octalink or ISIS
> > spindles.....what would that frame be worth at this time?
>
> The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges, you just have to hope
> that the crank spindle "standard" does not change. If it does, I
> could easily see an adapter -- a pipe spindle with snap clip retainers
> and a square taper (?) end -- like the old Klein BBs (except with
> standard bearings).
>
>
>
> > >, and (2) the frame uses
> > > common sized cartridge bearings. With all the other novelties you
> > > mention, if it breaks, your're screwed unless the manufacture has a
> > > replacement sitting around in a store room or a museum. If the
> > > bearings **** out on the Trek, you go to your local bearing shop and
> > > order up some replacements. Probably cheaper than buying replacements
> > > for standard outboard cups. And more importantly, you don't land on
> > > your face if the bearings break, like with the Viscount fork.
>
> > But, someone has to be in the business of making the now current pipe
> > style BB cranks. If not, the frame is useless.
>
> Unless an adapter is made like I said above. People adapted with
> Kleins, Viscounts and other BB shells with no threads and pressed in
> bearings (although standard width shells). I don't think Trek would
> leave its customers high and dry.

We could go back and forth on this....but, the question that seems to
remain unanswered is this: other than a small (meaningless to most)
weight reduction, where is the benefit to the customer? What does the
consumer receive in exchange for buying a frame that carries with it
this risk of obsolesence?

The gains for Trek are obvious: lower parts cost, lower labor costs, a
leg up in the weight weenie sweepstakes and the chance to blow a big
puff of smoke up the cycling public's butt.

But, what does the buyer get?

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>
,
Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:

> The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges

The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.

--
Michael Press

 

[Kenny]

On Jul 27, 6:24 am, Ozark Bicycle
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
> But, what does the buyer get?

He or she gets a feel good buzz. After all what's money for?

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 29, 7:59 pm, Kenny <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 27, 6:24 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > But, what does the buyer get?
>
> He or she gets a feel good buzz.

And, a nice wall hanging in a few years. Or, perhaps, a wind chime.


>After all what's money for?

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.

Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
BB that I know of.

I don't get all the stuff about the Madone becoming a paper weight or
wind chime if two piece cranks go away. If they stop making two-piece
cranks, you put in a hollow adapter for whatever else comes along
next. I also don't see two-piece cranks going away -- we are not going
back to square drive, and ISIS BBs suck. That is why we got two-piece
cranks. Why aren't people worried about the lack brake bridges or
canti studs on their disc bikes. Discs could vanish from the face of
the earth any minute. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 30, 2:30 pm, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> BB that I know of.
>
> I don't get all the stuff about the Madone becoming a paper weight or
> wind chime if two piece cranks go away. If they stop making two-piece
> cranks, you put in a hollow adapter for whatever else comes along
> next.

You are assuming that "whatever comes along next" will fit in the
Madone BB shell with an adapter. IMO, that's a risky assumption. The
trend is toward "bigger, fatter", etc.

And, of course, there is no compatibility with the old threaded
standards, even if one wanted to use them....

Oooops, it's a wind chime!


> I also don't see two-piece cranks going away

Five years ago, someone could have easily said that very thing about
Octalink and/or ISIS. Things look *very* different now, eh?

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Jul 25, 9:21 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 8:10 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > <snipped>
>
> > > > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > > > in the world
>
> > > > ??they are??
>
> > > Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
>
> > I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
> > quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
> to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't think so.

Now back to Ozark, I was pondering whether that new Campy tork-o-matic
crank would work on a Madone. It has its own pressed-on-to-the-arms
bearings (which probably require their own special tool to remove). I
don't know if those would seat in the Madone BB shell. If the whole
world moved to that design, then their could be trouble in paradise.
-- Jay Beattie.

 

[[email protected]]

On Jul 30, 9:48 pm, Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jul 25, 9:21 am, "[email protected]"
>
>
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jul 25, 8:10 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Jul 25, 7:04 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 24, 7:03 am, Ozark Bicycle
>
> > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > On Jul 24, 7:42 am, Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]>
> > > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > <snipped>
>
> > > > > - on BB bearings -
>
> > > > > > FSA bearings are the best
> > > > > > in the world
>
> > > > > ??they are??
>
> > > > Oppps, 'aren't' the best, is what i meant...
>
> > > I thought so....IMO, FSA bearings are fit for the LawnBoy, but not a
> > > quality bicycle.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Sort of off topic. But does FSA have their name/decal stamped/glued
> > to anything of good quality from their southeast asian sources?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't think so.
>
> Now back to Ozark, I was pondering whether that new Campy tork-o-matic
> crank would work on a Madone. It has its own pressed-on-to-the-arms
> bearings (which probably require their own special tool to remove). I
> don't know if those would seat in the Madone BB shell. If the whole
> world moved to that design, then their could be trouble in paradise.
> -- Jay Beattie.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Campy works, I've watched a friend installed them in a new Madone.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>
,
Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> BB that I know of.

Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.

--
Michael Press

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>
> ,
> Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <[email protected]>
> > > ,
> > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > BB that I know of.
>
> Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.

Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Lou Holtman]

Jay Beattie wrote:

>
> Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> whether handy is stupid in this situation.

Lose fit on the axle and a lose fit in the BB shell. Mmmm... as an
engineer I'm not comfortable with that.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

On Jul 31, 2:50 pm, Lou Holtman <[email protected]> wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > whether handy is stupid in this situation.
>
> Lose fit on the axle and a lose fit in the BB shell. Mmmm... as an
> engineer I'm not comfortable with that.
>

It was done for ease of assembly on a production line; other
considerations are secondary.

And, I doubt that ease of BB service 'in the field' was even on the
radar screen during the design process. That aspect is a creation of
the sales/marketing spin meisters, IMO.

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>
> > ,
> > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <[email protected]>
> > > > ,
> > > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
> >
> > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > BB that I know of.
> >
> > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
>
> Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.

You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
bicycle bottom bracket?

I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
cartridge bearing for that application.

--
Michael Press

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Jul 31, 10:08 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <[email protected]>
> > > ,
> > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > <[email protected]>
> > > > > ,
> > > > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
>
> > > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
>
> > > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > > the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > > BB that I know of.
>
> > > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
>
> > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
>
> You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
> job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
> over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
> you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
> you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
> bicycle bottom bracket?
>
> I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
> trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
> bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
> entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
> cartridge bearing for that application.

Gawd, I feel like I am in a highschool debating class (a bad one).
Again, I am not stroking Trek for using standard bearings -- or for
anything, although I do like the people I know who work there and have
a lot of respect for the company for a number of reasons (disclaimer).

I was pointing out to the doom and gloomers (Madone as wind chime)
that the bearings were standard and could be replaced. I do think Trek
should be credited for using bearings that are user replaceable. And,
finally, please feel free to change the bearings yourself in your
cartridge BBs -- I have not been able to do that, and I have been
buying cartridge BBs since the 70s. I used to stand around Phil
Wood's shop and watch him or one of his workers change the cartridges
in my first gen BBs. They had to do it for me, being that I did not
have a big hand operated press at home. -- Jay Beattie..

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jul 31, 10:08 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 31, 11:46 am, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > <[email protected]>
> > > > ,
> > > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > > On Jul 29, 5:25 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > > > > In article
> > > > > > <[email protected]>
> > > > > > ,
> > > > > > Jay Beattie <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > > > > The Madone uses standard bearing cartridges
> >
> > > > > > The only reason they use a standard cartridge bearing
> > > > > > is that the cost of building a non-standard cartridge
> > > > > > bearing is prohibitive, or rather more than the early
> > > > > > adopters are willing to pay. No credit to Trek there.
> >
> > > > > Who's looking for credit? I'm just stating a fact: if the bearings on
> > > > > the new Madone frame **** out, you just buy replacements from the
> > > > > corner bearing store. That is more than you can say for any cartridge
> > > > > BB that I know of.
> >
> > > > Every bottom bracket using a cartridge bearing uses a
> > > > standard industrial cartridge bearing available at any
> > > > supply house stocking bearings. By comparing this
> > > > bottom bracket with other bottom brackets you _are_
> > > > trying to credit Trek for this aspect to the design.
> >
> > > Even if there are standard bearings in cartridge BBs, you can't
> > > replace them -- except on some BBs like Race Face or Phil, but even
> > > then, you have to send the BB to the factory. On the Madone, you pop
> > > the bearings in by hand. Now, I'm not saying that is a good thing if
> > > it means that there is a sloppy fit and you ruin the crank spindle or
> > > frame cups, but it is handy. I leave it to the engineers to determine
> > > whether handy is stupid in this situation. -- Jay Beattie.
> >
> > You say that replacing a cartridge bearing is a factory
> > job but I do not believe you. Further you just skipped
> > over my challenge of your assertion "That is more than
> > you can say for any cartridge BB that I know of." Do
> > you know of any non-standard cartridge bearing in a
> > bicycle bottom bracket?
> >
> > I will take it as ceded that you agree that you were
> > trying to credit Trek for using standard cartridge
> > bearings in their bottom brackets; when in fact it is
> > entirely impractical for them to design a non-standard
> > cartridge bearing for that application.
>
> Gawd, I feel like I am in a highschool debating class (a bad one).
> Again, I am not stroking Trek for using standard bearings -- or for
> anything, although I do like the people I know who work there and have
> a lot of respect for the company for a number of reasons (disclaimer).

Here you say "I am not stroking Trek for using standard
bearings " But you are. Which cartridge bottom brackets
use non-standard cartridge bearings? None. Since all
cartridge bottom brackets use standard cartridge
bearings, saying that Trek does is crediting them where
no credit is due. They and their customers cannnot
afford to buy a non-standard cartridge bearing, so Trek
uses a standard cartridge bearing, the same as
everybody else.

> I was pointing out to the doom and gloomers (Madone as wind chime)
> that the bearings were standard and could be replaced. I do think Trek
> should be credited for using bearings that are user replaceable. And,
> finally, please feel free to change the bearings yourself in your
> cartridge BBs -- I have not been able to do that, and I have been
> buying cartridge BBs since the 70s. I used to stand around Phil
> Wood's shop and watch him or one of his workers change the cartridges
> in my first gen BBs. They had to do it for me, being that I did not
> have a big hand operated press at home.

Replacing interference fit cartridge bearings is not
exclusively a factory job. Several guys here do it at
home with home tools.

Also a couple of guys who are skilled
mechanics/engineers have commented that cartridge
bearings that are not an interference fit are a bad
idea, since the portion of the interface that should be
an interference fit is free to move and wear away
material. What steps does Trek take to mitigate this
problem?

--
Michael Press