Replacing retainer type ball bearings with loose



N

Neptune

Guest
This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo hub,
that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose balls
leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem that
the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
Neptune
 
In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.

"Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo hub,
> that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose balls
> leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
> that
> the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
> Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> Neptune
>
>
 
"Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
> Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.
>
> "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo

hub,
> > that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose

balls
> > leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
> > that
> > the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
> > Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> > Neptune
> >
> >

>
>


Why remove one?
 
Richard wrote:
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
> > Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.
> >
> > "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo

> hub,
> > > that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose

> balls
> > > leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
> > > that
> > > the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
> > > Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> > > Neptune
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
> Why remove one?


You don't want them to touch, they will kill each other. When you put
in the axle and adjust, they travel 'up' the cup a bit and it'll be too
tight in there with 12 balls.
 
Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
>
> You don't want them [ball bearings] to touch, they will kill each other...


By fretting, spalling or brinnelling?

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
 
Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > You don't want them [ball bearings] to touch, they will kill each other...

>
> By fretting, spalling or brinnelling?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Here, not there.


yes, by gum.....
 
Neptune wrote:
> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo hub,
> that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose balls
> leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem that
> the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
> Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> Neptune
>
>

it's fine - go ahead and do it provided you don't over-fill. as you
suppose, there is a small theoretical improvement in load capacity and
it's common for different manufacturers to use caged and uncaged
configurations. caged sure is a lot more convenient for manufacturing.
 
Richard wrote:
> "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
> > Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.
> >
> > "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo

> hub,
> > > that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose

> balls
> > > leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
> > > that
> > > the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
> > > Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> > > Neptune
> > >
> > >

> >
> >

>
> Why remove one?


He meant to type "remove the cage and ADD one additional ball bearing".

What the original question asker wrote does not make sense. There is
no way you can remove the cage and add four extra ball bearings of the
same size. There is not that much extra room. Maybe he is replacing
the 7 1/4" bearings with 11 3/16" bearings. Or maybe he mistyped and
his rear hub with the cage has 9 1/4" bearings in the cage and he can
fit 11 1/4" bearings by making them rub against each other. That is
probably true. 7 bearings on the rear hub seems a bit too few.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> He meant to type "remove the cage and ADD one additional ball bearing".


No, he said, more or less, "remove the cage, add as many bearings as
the race will hold, then remove one."

Cages can be constructed so as to use as few as 1/2 the full capacity
of the cage, but most I've seen seem to be about 3/4ths. Only adding
one might be the case in some circumstances, but not always.

Oh, and you don't actually "add" any - you replace them all, using more
than had been there with the cage. Mixing old and new bearings isn't a
good idea unless you're forced to on the side of the Dawson highway or
something.
 
"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Richard wrote:
> > "Chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more

balls.
> > > Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.
> > >
> > > "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo

> > hub,
> > > > that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose

> > balls
> > > > leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would

seem
> > > > that
> > > > the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's

negligible.
> > > > Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
> > > > Neptune
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >

> >
> > Why remove one?

>
> You don't want them to touch, they will kill each other. When you put
> in the axle and adjust, they travel 'up' the cup a bit and it'll be too
> tight in there with 12 balls.
>


Loose balls are going to touch anyway. Having to many is an other problem. I
don't remember how many I have in mine, but I have no problems with it.
 
Peter Chisholm writes:

>>>> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo
>>>> Tipo hub, that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can
>>>> fit 11 loose balls leaving a little slack. Any advantages or
>>>> disadvantages? It would seem that the load carrying ability would
>>>> be increased, but maybe it's negligible. Anyone have an opinion?
>>>> Thanks Neptune


>>> In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and
>>> more balls. Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and
>>> remove one.


>> Why remove one?


> You don't want them to touch, they will kill each other. When you
> put in the axle and adjust, they travel 'up' the cup a bit and it'll
> be too tight in there with 12 balls.


I think you got that backward. As they are moved apart as the cone
spreads them and gain more clearance as the move up the cup. Touching
doesn't hurt, it is sliding under pressure that might cause drag. If
there is insufficient clearance for that number of balls, they will
lock up when adjusting the cones, so that takes care of itself.

Good bearings use a cage only for assembly purposes while cheap ones
save cost by fewer balls and easy assembly.

Jobst Brandt
 
Russell Seaton1 writes:

>>>> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo
>>>> Tipo hub, that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can
>>>> fit 11 loose balls leaving a little slack. Any advantages or
>>>> disadvantages? It would seem that the load carrying ability
>>>> would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.


>>> In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and
>>> more balls. Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and
>>> remove one.


>> Why remove one?


> He meant to type "remove the cage and ADD one additional ball bearing".


> What the original question asker wrote does not make sense. There
> is no way you can remove the cage and add four extra ball bearings
> of the same size. There is not that much extra room. Maybe he is
> replacing the 7 1/4" bearings with 11 3/16" bearings. Or maybe he
> mistyped and his rear hub with the cage has 9 1/4" bearings in the
> cage and he can fit 11 1/4" bearings by making them rub against each
> other. That is probably true. 7 bearings on the rear hub seems a
> bit too few.


You have never seen real cheap hubs, I take it. They use a cage with
widely spaced balls, (as few as five). I also don't think Campagnolo
ever made hubs with that widely spaced balls but there are such hubs
on the market.

Jobst Brandt
 
In article
<[email protected]>
,
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Peter Chisholm wrote:
> >
> > You don't want them [ball bearings] to touch, they will kill each other...

>
> By fretting, spalling or brinnelling?


Yes.

--
Michael Press
 
The rule is to _overfill_ the bearing race and then to remove one ball
bearing. At least, this is the rule with headsets.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
 
> "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo hub,
>> that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose balls
>> leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
>> that
>> the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
>> Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
>> Neptune

Chris wrote:
> In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
> Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.


Your hub left Campagnolo with nine 1/4" balls on each side.

The retainer is from some other application. Campagnolo hubs did not use
retainers before the 2000 model year

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 23:55:54 -0500, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> "Neptune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> This may have been discussed before. On an old rear Campy Nuovo Tipo hub,
>>> that has 1/4 in. 7 ball retainer type bearings, I can fit 11 loose balls
>>> leaving a little slack. Any advantages or disadvantages? It would seem
>>> that
>>> the load carrying ability would be increased, but maybe it's negligible.
>>> Anyone have an opinion? Thanks
>>> Neptune

>Chris wrote:
>> In the "old" days that was SOP to replace with no retainer and more balls.
>> Rule I think is to fill the race with balls and remove one.

>
>Your hub left Campagnolo with nine 1/4" balls on each side.
>
>The retainer is from some other application. Campagnolo hubs did not use
>retainers before the 2000 model year


Dear Andrew,

Nice to see you again.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel