Responding to attacks

[Carrera]

Hi!
I'll share the contents of an amusing training-run today and let people make what they will of the post.
Basically, I was wondering if I'd ever be attacked on the hills at some point and it happened to me today. There I was dressed down in a T-shirt and shorts casually climbing a very long, winding hill when somebody came past me in his team colours, riding a road-bike (didn't quite find out what make it was). I imagine he must have seen me from afar and closed the distance somewhat before finally attacking.
This is where it got interesting since I did my best to respond to the attack and I managed to close the distance again as the hill flattened out a little, finally locking my front wheel onto his rear wheel. Then as the route gradiated back into a climb I very slowly started to lose ground and found myself really struggling. My cheeks felt like they were on fire too, so I really felt the pace.
I think that probably the truth was I encountered a cyclist who was fitter and lighter than myself and I would guess there must have been a 28 lb difference in weight between us (I'm just under 200 lbs). At some point we went different ways but I admit I had had to work far harder than I would normally due to someone having made an attack (chuckle).
Do people think it would be a good idea for me to work on reducing my body weight somewhat or is it more a matter of improving my fitness (or even technique)? Is it possible for a heavier guy to keep up with far smaller roadies or are we larger cyclists inevitably constrained to reduce bodyweight in order to increase climbing speed.
I also wondered if anyone else ever experiences attacks during a hill-climb and how they feel they can respond (or what they learn from their response)?
I know this may sound a bit obsessively competitive but it's not meant to be so in a negative sense. The only way you can guage your fitness level is against other cyclists when all is said and done. And although I concede I encountered a better cyclist than myself today at least I didn't get totally dropped and have found more incentive to train even harder.

 

[tmctguer]

i am 47 years old, weigh 161 lbs and am in pretty good cycling shape. i train in a pretty hilly area. twice in the past two weeks, i had similar things happen to me.

the first one happened when a guy i was following took off quickly. we were both hauling *ss up the hill. he was out of the saddle shifting into higher gears. i was in the saddle in a gear i am comfortable in REALLY spinning. my personal best up that hill (approx. 1/2 mile, 5 - 6% grade) was 12 MPH at a HR of about 160. i looked down and saw i was pedalling at 14 MHP at a HR of about 170. approx. 2/3's up the hill, i was starting to think i had to drop the pace due to pending death. however, he cracked first and dropped very fast. i had enough left to blow by him and keep 13+ MPH up to the top. he didn't catch me until i was stopped at a red light at the bottom of the hill.

the second time happened on the same hill a week ago, just after i installed my power meter. i didn't know someone was behind me. i was watching my power output, not speed, and noticed i at 325 - 350 watts. at the midway point of the hill, a tall lanky guy rode by. he got ahead of my by about 30 feet by the time i reacted. i quickly matched his pace, then began to close the gap. i saw him look over his shoulder and see me gaining. he started slowing down a bit, and i caught him near the top. he turned to me and said "that's all i got", and we rode down together. i noticed that my power had increased to 400 watts when i had caught him.

it is good when you can catch someone, but i know how it feels to get blown by ! i have a lot of respect for the ones who smoke me. it keeps me humble, and makes me want to keep training.

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally posted by tmctguer
i noticed that my power had increased to 400 watts when i had caught him.

That's the adrenaline factor that competition produces.

As to the initial poster, the obvious and quickest way to increase hill climbing speed (as you have self answered) is to reduce excess weight. Hill climbing ability is firstly about power to weight then your aerobic efficiency (V02 Max, increased AT).

Top hill climbers will attempt to blow you away by surging and recovering rather than climb at a consistent speed. Best advice, unless you are a mountain goat, is to resist surges and climb at your optimum consistent rate (assisted by adrenaline).

 

[dorkpants]

it's amazing how you can seemingly be struggling, working real hard to keep a steady pace whilst climbing, only to have adrenaline dish you out 50% more power in the legs and an extra 20bpm for the heart as you realise you're about to be overtaken.....


(not that i get overtaken often... hehe)

 

[Carrera]

I think it was a sobering experience for me. Your own response to being attacked seems a little better than mine, though, since you were evidently equipped to defend yourself and make an impression on the other guy.
The way I've been climbing lately is in what I call "relaxed mode." The hill I train on is a real long haul but the gradiant is only very steep in small sections. Still it's a few miles all the way up. I tend to put my hands on top of the bars (not in the drops) and have began to stay seated more than I used to. My speed would go down to 9 mph at the very lowest but mostly hover around 12 - 13 mph.
I was just working about 75% effort, taking my time when this guy came past me, so I responded and caught up as I said. However, I got into trouble when we hit another steeper section of the road and I found I was starting to gasp. I also began to lose distance on the other guy at this point. Seems like the initial response on my part simply burned me out but the other rider turned off a different route - at which point I resumed my normal pace and recovered.
I think the fact I was literally gasping is what gives me cause for thought. Obviously I can climb very well at my own pace but maybe I'm not quite as good at suddenly increasing the pace to respond to any unexpected challenge.
I've overtaken several mountain bike riders up hills over the months but this is the first time I've encountered a decent club rider on a road-bike who could put me under pressure.
I suppose one thing I can start practising is faking an attack during ascents, imagining someone has suddenly overtaken me and then acting accordingly by increasing the pace (to see how long I can sustain the effort). I noticed that several other cyclists seem to practise up that hill so the chances are I'll be attacked again in the future.
I presently weigh between 190 - 200 pounds so I wonder how much weight I should drop and how much difference it might make.

Originally posted by tmctguer
i am 47 years old, weigh 161 lbs and am in pretty good cycling shape. i train in a pretty hilly area. twice in the past two weeks, i had similar things happen to me.

the first one happened when a guy i was following took off quickly. we were both hauling *ss up the hill. he was out of the saddle shifting into higher gears. i was in the saddle in a gear i am comfortable in REALLY spinning. my personal best up that hill (approx. 1/2 mile, 5 - 6% grade) was 12 MPH at a HR of about 160. i looked down and saw i was pedalling at 14 MHP at a HR of about 170. approx. 2/3's up the hill, i was starting to think i had to drop the pace due to pending death. however, he cracked first and dropped very fast. i had enough left to blow by him and keep 13+ MPH up to the top. he didn't catch me until i was stopped at a red light at the bottom of the hill.

the second time happened on the same hill a week ago, just after i installed my power meter. i didn't know someone was behind me. i was watching my power output, not speed, and noticed i at 325 - 350 watts. at the midway point of the hill, a tall lanky guy rode by. he got ahead of my by about 30 feet by the time i reacted. i quickly matched his pace, then began to close the gap. i saw him look over his shoulder and see me gaining. he started slowing down a bit, and i caught him near the top. he turned to me and said "that's all i got", and we rode down together. i noticed that my power had increased to 400 watts when i had caught him.

it is good when you can catch someone, but i know how it feels to get blown by ! i have a lot of respect for the ones who smoke me. it keeps me humble, and makes me want to keep training.

 

[tmctguer]

about 3 years ago, i was up to 178 pounds (i am 5'7"), and i had a bike that weighed 31 pounds. i started eating a little smarter and lost 18 pounds in a year. i bought a bike that weighs 18 pounds. so i'm lighter than i was 3 years ago by 30 pounds, so i SHOULD be a bit faster up the hills.

i live in a pretty hilly area with several 8% grade hills that i ride somewhat regularly. one is 1.5 miles long -- a beast -- which i usually ride as a climbing test. my normal training route has approx. 1,500' of ascent, including several 2 - 3 minute decent hills.

i try pedal up the hills at a steady pace. i used to watch my HR and try to ride at 158 - 163 BPM up the hills. i recently installed a power meter, so now i watch my wattage and try to maintain 350 watts as long as i can.

are you riding with a HRM?

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally posted by Carrera
However, I got into trouble when we hit another steeper section of the road and I found I was starting to gasp. I also began to lose distance on the other guy at this point. Seems like the initial response on my part simply burned me out but the other rider turned off a different route - at which point I resumed my normal pace and recovered.
I think the fact I was literally gasping is what gives me cause for thought. Obviously I can climb very well at my own pace but maybe I'm not quite as good at suddenly increasing the pace to respond to any unexpected challenge.

****************************************
I presently weigh between 190 - 200 pounds so I wonder how much weight I should drop and how much difference it might make.

Carrera, if you are gasping for air it would appear your aerobic fitness is your limiting factor. If you were aerobically fit it would not be your lungs burning but your leg muscles.

If hill climbing is your chosen forte I would suggest doing hill repeats. These are more like V02 max intervals where you are climbing for a less amount of time but at a higher intensity. You will initially find you are still gasping for air but after a few sessions your breathing will come under control.

You will still be in the discomfort zone but for less amount of time as you will be climbing faster.

In relation to your weight. The amount of weight you can lose is particular to your morphology and current body fat percentage. There is a minimum or optimum body fat percentage you can drop to without detrimentally impacting on your muscle strength/power. You should seek the face to face advice of a professional about how much weight to lose and over what time frame. It's a question that would be unanswerable on an internet forum.

 

[Carrera]

It's a reverse situation. My legs don't burn at all and I have no problems whatsoever with my legs. However, I did find that I struggle on the aerobic score if I radically increase my pace up a hill. If I take my time, however, and stick at about 12 mph I can climb comfortably.
I agree with you it sounds like I may be lacking fitness and may need to work far harder. Either that or I may be slightly overtrained.
Yes I do use a bike computer and tend to view my speed as much as possible. So far, I've never tried actually sprinting up a hill but set a fairly comfortable pace that gets me breathing a little hard but not gasping as such.
All I can say is that I'll start experimenting with speed cycles uphill and use my computer as a guide. Hopefully my fitness will pick up as I intensify my training. I've overtaken dozens of guys on hills in the past and that's the first time I really had a struggle on my hands.

Originally posted by VeloFlash
Carrera, if you are gasping for air it would appear your aerobic fitness is your limiting factor. If you were aerobically fit it would not be your lungs burning but your leg muscles.

If hill climbing is your chosen forte I would suggest doing hill repeats. These are more like V02 max intervals where you are climbing for a less amount of time but at a higher intensity. You will initially find you are still gasping for air but after a few sessions your breathing will come under control.

You will still be in the discomfort zone but for less amount of time as you will be climbing faster.

In relation to your weight. The amount of weight you can lose is particular to your morphology and current body fat percentage. There is a minimum or optimum body fat percentage you can drop to without detrimentally impacting on your muscle strength/power. You should seek the face to face advice of a professional about how much weight to lose and over what time frame. It's a question that would be unanswerable on an internet forum.

 

[larry barr]

Practice, practice, practice. Even if you blow up near the top the more you do it the better you will get. That being said, us larger guys (173 lb) are at a disadvantage to the 130 lb dripping wet crowd. Of course gravity is in our favor on the way down.

 

[Carrera]

"about 3 years ago, i was up to 178 pounds (i am 5'7"), and i had a bike that weighed 31 pounds. i started eating a little smarter and lost 18 pounds in a year. i bought a bike that weighs 18 pounds. so i'm lighter than i was 3 years ago by 30 pounds, so i SHOULD be a bit faster up the hills."

What I found is that if I begin an exercise program that includes plentiful aerobics while eating my fill of meat, carbs and veg, nothing happens for some time and excess fat may hang on. However, after several weeks I suddenly find my metabolism starts to burn calories like crazy and fat simply drips off me. In fact, I may then find I'm actually losing too much weight. So far, I've lost about 10 pounds automatically and I guess I'll continue to lose more.

Of course, my natural body type is ectomorphic so I'm aware endomorphs would find their own battle to lose fat far harder.

As for climbing, I appreciate the tips and pointers I've been getting on the forum. There are guys out there in the hills who are virtual powerhouses weighing in around 150 lbs so I guess the competition is good. I'll be working on steady weight loss and improved fitness (as well as climbing technique) over the Summer and will take heed of some of your collective advice.

I've promised myself that once I've dropped the puppy fat from my waist and improved fitness, I plan to purchase a really high-tech bike but am not yet sure which one it will be.

Incidentally, does anybody reckon the bike makes any difference to performance? Is there really any difference between a De Rosa or Cannondale or is it all the mind?

Originally posted by tmctguer
about 3 years ago, i was up to 178 pounds (i am 5'7"), and i had a bike that weighed 31 pounds. i started eating a little smarter and lost 18 pounds in a year. i bought a bike that weighs 18 pounds. so i'm lighter than i was 3 years ago by 30 pounds, so i SHOULD be a bit faster up the hills.

i live in a pretty hilly area with several 8% grade hills that i ride somewhat regularly. one is 1.5 miles long -- a beast -- which i usually ride as a climbing test. my normal training route has approx. 1,500' of ascent, including several 2 - 3 minute decent hills.

i try pedal up the hills at a steady pace. i used to watch my HR and try to ride at 158 - 163 BPM up the hills. i recently installed a power meter, so now i watch my wattage and try to maintain 350 watts as long as i can.

are you riding with a HRM?

 

[Aztec]

ALL in the mind.

 

[Rod White]

Originally posted by Carrera

Do people think it would be a good idea for me to work on reducing my body weight somewhat or is it more a matter of improving my fitness (or even technique)? Is it possible for a heavier guy to keep up with far smaller roadies or are we larger cyclists inevitably constrained to reduce bodyweight in order to increase climbing speed.
I

Hi

It is hard to compare yourself with anyone you meet on the roads irregardless of what size they are or what they are riding because on the road, unless you ask them about what the do as a cyclist and how far and hard had they ridden to get to that point on the hill, you won't have any idea of what level of fatigue you both were at.

For example, was the guy who overtook you an A grade racer who had only ridden a few kms at an easy pace before he overtook you or was he a veteran who had done 100K's hard before that point ?

I once caught a guy on a hill just to find that he had ridden the same course as me to that point plus 10km's before the start and had 10kms extra to go after me. You're cheating yourself if you take pride in catching him and at the same time you shouldn't be so concerned about being caught unless it is by a grandmother on a mountain bike.


Also, lots of people, large and small, can climb a hill quickly, maybe two, but try it 10 times over a course and then the girls are seperated from the boys.

One technological advantage to hill climbing is the sealed bearing hub. I recently bought some and because of the cylender/race nature of the bearing (like your car's bearings) as opposed to the cup and cone (with ball bearings) of a normal hub, the stress on the bearings is reduced and hence the rolling resistance is also reduced. One of the places I find this helps is noticeably is hill climbing. (I train the hill s using my Shimano 105 hubs which have cup and cone bearings and then race on the Velocity hubs which have sealed bearings).

How could you tell whether the guy who blew you away on the hill had sealed bearing hums or normal hubs.

What I'm really saying is don't compare yourself with anyone on the road unless you have a benchmark to compare against (like a regular training partner who does the same ride with you over and over again) otherwise you are just getting a false belief in your ability.

Oh, I forgot to say. If you want a real guage, take up racing. Find a club that has lots of grades and a wide range of ages. At the start go for a friendly club with not much mucho hype, you will learn alot more and have more fun. At my club we have a 65 year old guy who races in the national masters, the states best woman rider and a guy who is 120+ Kgs. Racing is just so much fun and the only way to compare yourself with other riders.

 

[velomanct]

what makes you think that this rider was trying to attack you? maybe he was doing an interval and you happened to be on the same road. not all riders are trying to race you.

 

[Carrera]

"What makes you think that this rider was trying to attack you?"

Overtaking in my area is a very common situation. It happens a lot with novice riders who ride clapped out bikes on the way to work. It's just the reality of the situation since people will try to overtake in a fun way to add some excitement to their ride.

Admittedly I once overtook a mountain bike on a hill simply because the rider was going a little too slow. Even so, it still feels good when you can overtake somebody else and, thereby, guage your fitness.

I'm fitter now than I was some weeks ago so I'm better prepared to fend off any attack by the typical Joe Bloggs on his work-bike who might see a guy on a flashy yellow racer and have a go at blowing him away. However, if I come across a seasoned roadie who trains hard and long I confess I have to really push myself to try and match the pace.

My uncle shared an amusing story of a guy who sprinted past him in high-quality racing gear, goggles and the works. My uncle had a rucksack and boots and was cycling back from work. He's also in his sixties. Incredibly my uncle was able to make a comeback and overtake the technician at a later stage and I imagine the younger guy may have been none too pleased.

Originally posted by velomanct
what makes you think that this rider was trying to attack you? maybe he was doing an interval and you happened to be on the same road. not all riders are trying to race you.

 

[Carrera]

Hi,
There are a a lot of guys who seemed to have discovered this particular training hill I now use for short, sharp sessions. I've seen several veteran cyclists sprinting up into the country along this route. One thing I did notice was they all tend to get out of the seat where the gradiant isn't really so steep, whereas I stay in the seat and churn away more slowly.
I got the impression these guys make use of their overall fitness by using their whole body as opposed to just leg-work. Without a doubt they are far lighter than myself.
I do intend to join a cycle club and was once invited by a very friendly older guy and his wife who both stopped me in their car and asked if I minded them taking a look at my bike. They were really friendly and the older fellow suggested I could tag along with some of the group for a ride over the weekend. My problem, of course, is my very long working hours that make extended training really complicated. However, I'm definitely interested in joining this group and think it's terrific when you can meet up with other folks who share the same interest. Cycling is quite popular over here to be honest.
I agree with you there are many factors where competition is concerned. There are times when even pro-riders struggle to keep up with other riders. Have you ever seen how some cyclists drop out with fatigue when really intense climbs get under way? You're right when you say a cyclist can only explore every option available, fitness, weight, bike-technology and technique.
I wonder though if any guy on this forum has ever been left behind by a female cyclist. I'm told the women only trail men by a few seconds in races.

Originally posted by Rod White
Hi

It is hard to compare yourself with anyone you meet on the roads irregardless of what size they are or what they are riding because on the road, unless you ask them about what the do as a cyclist and how far and hard had they ridden to get to that point on the hill, you won't have any idea of what level of fatigue you both were at.

For example, was the guy who overtook you an A grade racer who had only ridden a few kms at an easy pace before he overtook you or was he a veteran who had done 100K's hard before that point ?

I once caught a guy on a hill just to find that he had ridden the same course as me to that point plus 10km's before the start and had 10kms extra to go after me. You're cheating yourself if you take pride in catching him and at the same time you shouldn't be so concerned about being caught unless it is by a grandmother on a mountain bike.


Also, lots of people, large and small, can climb a hill quickly, maybe two, but try it 10 times over a course and then the girls are seperated from the boys.

One technological advantage to hill climbing is the sealed bearing hub. I recently bought some and because of the cylender/race nature of the bearing (like your car's bearings) as opposed to the cup and cone (with ball bearings) of a normal hub, the stress on the bearings is reduced and hence the rolling resistance is also reduced. One of the places I find this helps is noticeably is hill climbing. (I train the hill s using my Shimano 105 hubs which have cup and cone bearings and then race on the Velocity hubs which have sealed bearings).

How could you tell whether the guy who blew you away on the hill had sealed bearing hums or normal hubs.

What I'm really saying is don't compare yourself with anyone on the road unless you have a benchmark to compare against (like a regular training partner who does the same ride with you over and over again) otherwise you are just getting a false belief in your ability.

Oh, I forgot to say. If you want a real guage, take up racing. Find a club that has lots of grades and a wide range of ages. At the start go for a friendly club with not much mucho hype, you will learn alot more and have more fun. At my club we have a 65 year old guy who races in the national masters, the states best woman rider and a guy who is 120+ Kgs. Racing is just so much fun and the only way to compare yourself with other riders.

 

[Rod White]

Originally posted by Carrera
Hi,
I wonder though if any guy on this forum has ever been left behind by a female cyclist. I'm told the women only trail men by a few seconds in races.

Carrera,

I took up riding about a year ago to loose weight under the encouragement of a bike riding friend. After some time I decided to re-ignite my competitive side and joined a local bike club. When I first joined they put me in B grade and in the first few races I was totally trounced by a 65 year old male veteran, a 14 year old boy and a 35 year old woman. Each of these riders compete in the state titles, the woman, Jenny having won her division, Jim, the 65 year old having come fifth (due to a cramp in the final sprint) and the boy is state champion. The point is that each of these riders would hold there own on the road against all but A grade racers. This means that around 95% of road riders would be left behind by Jenny were she to meet them on the road. Unfortunately the sport is male dominated so that the number of cyclists at Jenny's level is small and the drop off from her level down to the next woman in our club is severe. This means that while it is true that most women will be behind the level of strength of most men, there are women around who can really belt the majority of men. It is also true however that the best men will beat the best women. The thing is, when you do meet a lady at that level, show her real respect she undoubtably deserves it.

It is just so hard to compare apples on the road. Here is a perfect example. Yesterday I raced a criterium of about 40 minutes against a national track champion who recently won the state title in his division and competes at world level. Problem is, his normal events last around 35 seconds so although he is brillant on the track, the hills and anything aerobic absolutely kill kim. Me beating him in a race lasting 40 minutes with hills means absolutely nothing because his strengths are completely different to mine and whereas he has achieved recognition in his sport I have none because his does not transfer to me if I beat him in a completely different event. Were I to have met this guy on the road and not knowing who is was, ridden with him for a while, boy would I have thought that this guy had lots of strength but absolutely no endurance.

Riding around on the road is like that, it is like everyone is riding different races, of different lengths, all at the same time and everyone has different strengths and limiters. In other words, to say I am a better cyclist than he because I beat him in this type of race is ludicrous. Just like saying that someone who climbs a hill faster than you or in the saddle is a better cyclist or fitter than another cyclist is also wrong. A world track champion will climb a hill faster than anyone you have ever seen, then will die at the top.

This is why racing is the only way to guage yourself as a cyclist, against a group of people at the same level, over the same course who at least believe they have the required strengths for that type of racing. Even then, some races are shorter, longer, slower, faster, some racers are smarter, dumber, more experienced etc so many many many races will indicate your abilities not just one or two.

Keep in mind that some group rides are like races. Where I live a very large group (80+ riders) ride from the city out to a suburb then at the turn around point it is a sprint, the regroup, then the return ride. So these groups, unlike social groups, are really as good as races to guage your ability.

Apart from racing, keep a training diary and record down your time, average speed, wind direction and strength. Then evaluate your performance over time. Oneday you might be in a position of comparing times with someone else who is a recognised cyclist and this will give you some type of benchmark.

Anyway, you have a choice of starting to race or just forget about who passes who on the hill. I think that if you are thinking all these thoughts about how you compare to others then you should start racing. Whether or not you become national road champion, racing will certainly improve you beyond your imagination.

I should put my viewpoint in a better, more clear perspective. I'm not suggesting that you be unconcerned about you hill riding performance, but that you should put that concern into a perspective. You say you have a body build that is not so good for hill climbing right, well if you are worried about your performance on this particular hill against other road riders and you are wondering whether you need to slim down to better your performance then your "purpose" must be to be the best hill climber in your area because dropping weight may reduce your power output. By starting to race your purpose changes, you start to want to be the best cyclist in your club. To be the best cyclist in your club you have to will the races each week. If those races are on a level course with lots of sharp corners then your current build and power will be better than a slight build with less power. If your race course is a hill one, then of course you need to either find a flatter race track or slim down, loose some power and gain in the hill climbing department. My race course has two tracks and each track has different hills. When we race on the shorter track with a smaller hill, the laps are shorter, meaning the down hill rests come more quickly and the hills are more freuqent though less severe. On the longer track the lap times are longer, so the downhill rests come less frequently and the hill is twice that of the shorter course. The short course ends up a bunch sprint and the longer course a break away and 3 man sprint. In the short course races I come last. In the long course races I place even though the race length is around the same. If I race at another club with a flat track and tight corners I don't have the acceleration (power) out of the corners and there is no recovery time. In this respect, my body is basically suited to a particular type of racing and I train to improve my racing. Your body and power would be suited to the flatter course and you should train to be competitive in that forum. My point is that you are treating training like racing and you are thinking of changing your body dynamics for the sake of training because this is your purpose. The problem being that to be a good allroad cyclist on the road means being more than just a good hill climber.

Now some would say that I am wrong to say that you should train to your strengths but I'm not saying this. I'm saying race to you strength and understand your limiters (in your case perhaps the hills) and then place more emphasis on improving your limiters BUT NOT in such a way as to be detrimental to your strengths.

For me, when I train if someone overtakes me on a hill it is a real problem for me but if they beat me in a sprint on a level section then, although I know it is one of my limiters and needs improvement, it is not a strength I need when we race on the hill course. Thing is, most people don't pull up next to you then put on a big sprint while people do overtake you on hills and then try to trash you with their hill climbing skills, hence non-racing road cyclists post these type of questions about hill performance and not sprints. Next time someone "attacks" you on a hill just think to yourself that this guy is an idiot, I'm training and he thinks it is a race, what a fool. A good cyclist doesn't need to race during training or embarass other cyclists on hill climbs. A good cyclist will overtake you on a hill, sure but they will ride to their own pace, not yours and will probably say hello on the way past in a polite manner.

I hope you get my point, hill climbing is part of cycling but improving hill climbing is a part of a broader picture.

Rod

 

[Carrera]

"A good cyclist will overtake you on a hill, sure but they will ride to their own pace, not yours and will probably say hello on the way past in a polite manner. "

This guy did say hello to me, as I recall, and I'm sure we would have had a real good chat about cycling in general had we had the time to pause. Maybe I was employing a bit of tongue and cheek when I said I was attacked on a climb. I overtook someone myself today but the reality was I was capable of cycling faster at the time and I needed an open road.

I'm not competitive in an unhealthy way but, of course, I like to compete on a friendly basis. The thing is, though, when I meet someone who's fitter or faster than I am it inspires me to improve, or it may cause me to ponder how I might iron out any defects.

I've been thinking about what you said and I've been considering a specific program to focus on my own goals. You're right when you say climbing is one of my passions. Over the weeks I'm going to be experimenting with a very wide-ranging fitness program that should develop various skills on the bike. What I especially need is some weight loss and more long-range endurance. I also want to be faster in the hills.

The other day I found the perfect climb for my needs - an absolutely horrendous monster of a road that's very steep and long. I attempted it two days ago and was reduced to gasping and pausing to try and regulate my breathing. Today I went up all the way at a good pace and then repeated the process after rolling down. Rolling down you often wonder how the hell you ever got up there in the first place.

I'm now asking myself how often I should train that intensely and am aware it's better to train via cycles of intensity, easing up for several flat rides during the course of the week. Basically I'm experimenting and having some fun in the process.

I think I like hill-work as I find it challenging in a different way. To me it's the hardest aspect of cycling (from my own slightly limited perspective). I'll pick up on some more of your points later.

By the way, some of my family is in Australia and I know cycling is very popular over there. Cheers.

Originally posted by Rod White
Carrera,

I took up riding about a year ago to loose weight under the encouragement of a bike riding friend. After some time I decided to re-ignite my competitive side and joined a local bike club. When I first joined they put me in B grade and in the first few races I was totally trounced by a 65 year old male veteran, a 14 year old boy and a 35 year old woman. Each of these riders compete in the state titles, the woman, Jenny having won her division, Jim, the 65 year old having come fifth (due to a cramp in the final sprint) and the boy is state champion. The point is that each of these riders would hold there own on the road against all but A grade racers. This means that around 95% of road riders would be left behind by Jenny were she to meet them on the road. Unfortunately the sport is male dominated so that the number of cyclists at Jenny's level is small and the drop off from her level down to the next woman in our club is severe. This means that while it is true that most women will be behind the level of strength of most men, there are women around who can really belt the majority of men. It is also true however that the best men will beat the best women. The thing is, when you do meet a lady at that level, show her real respect she undoubtably deserves it.

It is just so hard to compare apples on the road. Here is a perfect example. Yesterday I raced a criterium of about 40 minutes against a national track champion who recently won the state title in his division and competes at world level. Problem is, his normal events last around 35 seconds so although he is brillant on the track, the hills and anything aerobic absolutely kill kim. Me beating him in a race lasting 40 minutes with hills means absolutely nothing because his strengths are completely different to mine and whereas he has achieved recognition in his sport I have none because his does not transfer to me if I beat him in a completely different event. Were I to have met this guy on the road and not knowing who is was, ridden with him for a while, boy would I have thought that this guy had lots of strength but absolutely no endurance.

Riding around on the road is like that, it is like everyone is riding different races, of different lengths, all at the same time and everyone has different strengths and limiters. In other words, to say I am a better cyclist than he because I beat him in this type of race is ludicrous. Just like saying that someone who climbs a hill faster than you or in the saddle is a better cyclist or fitter than another cyclist is also wrong. A world track champion will climb a hill faster than anyone you have ever seen, then will die at the top.

This is why racing is the only way to guage yourself as a cyclist, against a group of people at the same level, over the same course who at least believe they have the required strengths for that type of racing. Even then, some races are shorter, longer, slower, faster, some racers are smarter, dumber, more experienced etc so many many many races will indicate your abilities not just one or two.

Keep in mind that some group rides are like races. Where I live a very large group (80+ riders) ride from the city out to a suburb then at the turn around point it is a sprint, the regroup, then the return ride. So these groups, unlike social groups, are really as good as races to guage your ability.

Apart from racing, keep a training diary and record down your time, average speed, wind direction and strength. Then evaluate your performance over time. Oneday you might be in a position of comparing times with someone else who is a recognised cyclist and this will give you some type of benchmark.

Anyway, you have a choice of starting to race or just forget about who passes who on the hill. I think that if you are thinking all these thoughts about how you compare to others then you should start racing. Whether or not you become national road champion, racing will certainly improve you beyond your imagination.

I should put my viewpoint in a better, more clear perspective. I'm not suggesting that you be unconcerned about you hill riding performance, but that you should put that concern into a perspective. You say you have a body build that is not so good for hill climbing right, well if you are worried about your performance on this particular hill against other road riders and you are wondering whether you need to slim down to better your performance then your "purpose" must be to be the best hill climber in your area because dropping weight may reduce your power output. By starting to race your purpose changes, you start to want to be the best cyclist in your club. To be the best cyclist in your club you have to will the races each week. If those races are on a level course with lots of sharp corners then your current build and power will be better than a slight build with less power. If your race course is a hill one, then of course you need to either find a flatter race track or slim down, loose some power and gain in the hill climbing department. My race course has two tracks and each track has different hills. When we race on the shorter track with a smaller hill, the laps are shorter, meaning the down hill rests come more quickly and the hills are more freuqent though less severe. On the longer track the lap times are longer, so the downhill rests come less frequently and the hill is twice that of the shorter course. The short course ends up a bunch sprint and the longer course a break away and 3 man sprint. In the short course races I come last. In the long course races I place even though the race length is around the same. If I race at another club with a flat track and tight corners I don't have the acceleration (power) out of the corners and there is no recovery time. In this respect, my body is basically suited to a particular type of racing and I train to improve my racing. Your body and power would be suited to the flatter course and you should train to be competitive in that forum. My point is that you are treating training like racing and you are thinking of changing your body dynamics for the sake of training because this is your purpose. The problem being that to be a good allroad cyclist on the road means being more than just a good hill climber.

Now some would say that I am wrong to say that you should train to your strengths but I'm not saying this. I'm saying race to you strength and understand your limiters (in your case perhaps the hills) and then place more emphasis on improving your limiters BUT NOT in such a way as to be detrimental to your strengths.

For me, when I train if someone overtakes me on a hill it is a real problem for me but if they beat me in a sprint on a level section then, although I know it is one of my limiters and needs improvement, it is not a strength I need when we race on the hill course. Thing is, most people don't pull up next to you then put on a big sprint while people do overtake you on hills and then try to trash you with their hill climbing skills, hence non-racing road cyclists post these type of questions about hill performance and not sprints. Next time someone "attacks" you on a hill just think to yourself that this guy is an idiot, I'm training and he thinks it is a race, what a fool. A good cyclist doesn't need to race during training or embarass other cyclists on hill climbs. A good cyclist will overtake you on a hill, sure but they will ride to their own pace, not yours and will probably say hello on the way past in a polite manner.

I hope you get my point, hill climbing is part of cycling but improving hill climbing is a part of a broader picture.

Rod

 

[Rod White]

Originally posted by Carrera


I've been thinking about what you said and I've been considering a specific program to focus on my own goals.

Over the weeks I'm going to be experimenting with a very wide-ranging fitness program that should develop various skills on the bike. What I especially need is some weight loss and more long-range endurance. I also want to be faster in the hills.

The other day I found the perfect climb for my needs - an absolutely horrendous monster of a road that's very steep and long. I attempted it two days ago and was reduced to gasping and pausing to try and regulate my breathing. Today I went up all the way at a good pace and then repeated the process after rolling down. Rolling down you often wonder how the hell you ever got up there in the first place.

I'm now asking myself how often I should train that intensely and am aware it's better to train via cycles of intensity, easing up for several flat rides during the course of the week. Basically I'm experimenting and having some fun in the process.

I think I like hill-work as I find it challenging in a different way.

Carrera

Time for you to go and buy Joe Friels "The Cyclists Training Bible". Everything you ever wanted to know and wondered is in that book. My mother gave it to me for my birthday a few weeks ago and although I won't use everthing in the book, the stuff on strengths and limiters, periodisation of volume and intensity put into perspective all the thoughts I used to have when training (ie. riding to and from work). Like when to sprint, how hard to push, when to grind, how many hills to do, when, how big a gear to use, to gasp or, to spin or not to spin, those were the questions. The Bible answered all.

Rod.

 

[Carrera]

The name Friel rings a bell. Isn't that the guy who writes articles for velonews?
You're right I guess I need to learn about cycling training. I did bodybuilding for several years but endurance training is new to me. I did buy a cycling magazine the other week, though, but didn't find it quite as good as I imagined. There were some interesting articles on tests done by the publication team on Italian bikes but not a great deal on actual training.
I think they have some of Friel's books in the library I can read through. It's funny but cycling hasn't made much impact at my local sports centre and I never see any teams being put through their paces by a coach as they do with the decathlon teams and vaulters. However, we do have several cycling clubs and, as I said, I've already been invited to one of them.
Speaking of cycling to work, that's precisely what I do. I'm setting off in about an hour with a rucksack but by 6.00 a.m. it will be virtually empty (no food left). I try to get back home within 25 minutes but it's hell if there's heavy wind. Cycling to work isn't a serious run but I guess it gets you breathing hard so early in the morning.

Originally posted by Rod White
Carrera

Time for you to go and buy Joe Friels "The Cyclists Training Bible". Everything you ever wanted to know and wondered is in that book. My mother gave it to me for my birthday a few weeks ago and although I won't use everthing in the book, the stuff on strengths and limiters, periodisation of volume and intensity put into perspective all the thoughts I used to have when training (ie. riding to and from work). Like when to sprint, how hard to push, when to grind, how many hills to do, when, how big a gear to use, to gasp or, to spin or not to spin, those were the questions. The Bible answered all.

Rod.