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Tony Raven
Guest
General Easterly wrote on 21/06/2006 15:47 +0100:
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
>
That must raise big questions about the Chief Inspector Adams who said
at the time of the accident:
"The driver has lost control because of the ice on the road. There is no
indication to suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed.
Our best estimate at the moment is that the car is driving at something
like 50 miles per hour. And on a road like this, that isn't excessive speed.
Every road traffic collision is treated as a crime scene and tests have
already been carried out.
However there is nothing to suggest the driver did anything but lose
control and on the face of it this seems to be a terrible accident."
Funny how he and his police colleagues failed to notice three defective
tyres.
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
>
That must raise big questions about the Chief Inspector Adams who said
at the time of the accident:
"The driver has lost control because of the ice on the road. There is no
indication to suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed.
Our best estimate at the moment is that the car is driving at something
like 50 miles per hour. And on a road like this, that isn't excessive speed.
Every road traffic collision is treated as a crime scene and tests have
already been carried out.
However there is nothing to suggest the driver did anything but lose
control and on the face of it this seems to be a terrible accident."
Funny how he and his police colleagues failed to notice three defective
tyres.
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
U
General Easterly wrote:
> >From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
There was always going to be some very good reason why of the thousands
of cars which travelled along this supposedly 'icy' road that day, only
the car involved in the killing of these cyclists and one other skidded
off the road...
So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
> >From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
There was always going to be some very good reason why of the thousands
of cars which travelled along this supposedly 'icy' road that day, only
the car involved in the killing of these cyclists and one other skidded
off the road...
So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
D
David Hansen
Guest
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:59:06 +0100 someone who may be Tony Raven
<[email protected]> wrote this:-
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
>That must raise big questions about the Chief Inspector Adams who said
>at the time of the accident: [snip]
>
>Funny how he and his police colleagues failed to notice three defective
>tyres.
That is certainly something those who are more local might like to
ask the "Independent" Police Complaints commission to look into.
While it is pointless, because they are as Uncle Tom as their
predecessors, those that don't ask are not going to get.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
<[email protected]> wrote this:-
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
>That must raise big questions about the Chief Inspector Adams who said
>at the time of the accident: [snip]
>
>Funny how he and his police colleagues failed to notice three defective
>tyres.
That is certainly something those who are more local might like to
ask the "Independent" Police Complaints commission to look into.
While it is pointless, because they are as Uncle Tom as their
predecessors, those that don't ask are not going to get.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
B
Brian G
Guest
General Easterly wrote:
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
>
<Driver charged with having duff tyres>
Got to be careful, I know, not to jerk the knee and all that, but this
sounds a bit like charging Fred West with breach of the Building Regs.
--
Brian G
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
> :-(
>
<Driver charged with having duff tyres>
Got to be careful, I know, not to jerk the knee and all that, but this
sounds a bit like charging Fred West with breach of the Building Regs.
--
Brian G
G
General Easterly
Guest
David Hansen wrote:
[Snip]
> That is certainly something those who are more local might like to
> ask the "Independent" Police Complaints commission to look into.
[/Snip]
As a resident of North Wales I think I might just do that.
[Snip]
> That is certainly something those who are more local might like to
> ask the "Independent" Police Complaints commission to look into.
[/Snip]
As a resident of North Wales I think I might just do that.
D
davek
Guest
Brian G wrote:
> Got to be careful, I know, not to jerk the knee and all that, but this
> sounds a bit like charging Fred West with breach of the Building Regs.
Or perhaps more like charging Al Capone with tax evasion...
d.
> Got to be careful, I know, not to jerk the knee and all that, but this
> sounds a bit like charging Fred West with breach of the Building Regs.
Or perhaps more like charging Al Capone with tax evasion...
d.
N
naked_draughtsman
Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
> maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4816206.stm
One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately using
an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less than ideal)
and the punishments should be similar to those for the Tebay
'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
peter
> So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
> maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4816206.stm
One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately using
an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less than ideal)
and the punishments should be similar to those for the Tebay
'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
peter
W
wafflycat
Guest
>
> That must raise big questions about the Chief Inspector Adams who said at
> the time of the accident:
>
> "The driver has lost control because of the ice on the road. There is no
> indication to suggest that this is down to something like excessive speed.
>
> Our best estimate at the moment is that the car is driving at something
> like 50 miles per hour. And on a road like this, that isn't excessive
> speed.
>
> Every road traffic collision is treated as a crime scene and tests have
> already been carried out.
>
> However there is nothing to suggest the driver did anything but lose
> control and on the face of it this seems to be a terrible accident."
>
> Funny how he and his police colleagues failed to notice three defective
> tyres.
One can only hope that Chief Inspector Adams has trouble sleeping of a
night. But somehow, I doubt it'll bother him :-(
Cheers, helen s
P
Paul Boyd
Guest
On 21/06/2006 17:57, naked_draughtsman said,
> 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
> the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
I think you're going to be right here. Kill 4 people by cutting the
brakes on a railway trolley is gross stupidity, and the guy is being
punished. Driving in icy weather with three dodgy tyres and kill four
cyclists - well, it was "just" an unfortunate accident. I sincerely
hope that this won't be the case, and that the driver is severely
punished. It's one thing to have an accident, but quite another to
contribute to that accident by your own stupidity.
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
> 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
> the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
I think you're going to be right here. Kill 4 people by cutting the
brakes on a railway trolley is gross stupidity, and the guy is being
punished. Driving in icy weather with three dodgy tyres and kill four
cyclists - well, it was "just" an unfortunate accident. I sincerely
hope that this won't be the case, and that the driver is severely
punished. It's one thing to have an accident, but quite another to
contribute to that accident by your own stupidity.
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
S
Simon Brooke
Guest
in message <[email protected]>,
General Easterly ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
<quote>
The cyclists were said to be riding in pairs and wearing helmets
</quote>
What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
miles per hour?
And why the /hell/ is he not being charged with 'causing death by
dangerous driving'?
--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
'You cannot put "The Internet" into the Recycle Bin.'
General Easterly ('[email protected]') wrote:
>>From BBC Wales
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
<quote>
The cyclists were said to be riding in pairs and wearing helmets
</quote>
What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
miles per hour?
And why the /hell/ is he not being charged with 'causing death by
dangerous driving'?
--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
'You cannot put "The Internet" into the Recycle Bin.'
P
p.k.
Guest
naked_draughtsman wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>> So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
>> maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4816206.stm
>
> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
Not quite "disconnecting"
Prosecutor Robert Smith QC said Connolly, the boss of MAC Machinery
Services, had deliberately disconnected the hydraulic brakes on two wagons
because it was cheaper than repairing the wagons properly.
snip
Connolly had deliberately disconnected the brakes on the two wagons because
the hydraulic systems were in such a bad way they would not work properly in
conjunction with the crane.
He then filled cables connecting the crane - usually filled with hydraulic
brake fluid - with ball bearings, giving the impression everything was above
board.
> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
> using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
> than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
> Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law
> is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
It may well be that the actions were at the opposite end of the deliberately
criminal scale. I'll wait and see what transpires in court before passing
judgement.
pk
> [email protected] wrote:
>> So, three defective tyres. What will the penalty be? Nine points
>> maximum (3 for each tyre) and a £200 fine perhaps?
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4816206.stm
>
> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
Not quite "disconnecting"
Prosecutor Robert Smith QC said Connolly, the boss of MAC Machinery
Services, had deliberately disconnected the hydraulic brakes on two wagons
because it was cheaper than repairing the wagons properly.
snip
Connolly had deliberately disconnected the brakes on the two wagons because
the hydraulic systems were in such a bad way they would not work properly in
conjunction with the crane.
He then filled cables connecting the crane - usually filled with hydraulic
brake fluid - with ball bearings, giving the impression everything was above
board.
> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
> using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
> than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
> Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law
> is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
It may well be that the actions were at the opposite end of the deliberately
criminal scale. I'll wait and see what transpires in court before passing
judgement.
pk
T
Tony Raven
Guest
naked_draughtsman wrote on 21/06/2006 17:57 +0100:
>
> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately using
> an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less than ideal)
> and the punishments should be similar to those for the Tebay
> 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
> the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>
Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means 2
years.
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
>
> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately using
> an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less than ideal)
> and the punishments should be similar to those for the Tebay
> 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety law is at
> the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>
Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means 2
years.
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
A
Ambrose Nankivell
Guest
Tony Raven wrote:
> naked_draughtsman wrote on 21/06/2006 17:57 +0100:
>>
>> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
>> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
>> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
>> using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
>> than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
>> Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety
>> law is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>
> Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
> crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means
> 2 years.
It looks as if that's the same scale of incompetence and carelessness that
the man on the icy road was employing, so I guess he should get the same
sentence.
It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
Hart was villified by the press, presumably because train crashes are always
someone's fault and car crashes "just happen", and because of his private
life. It seems to me that with the Rhyl crash, people will a) victim blame,
and b) sympathise with the accused, especially as the press found him not
guilty of "behaving in a way a Daily Mail reader would tut at".
A
> naked_draughtsman wrote on 21/06/2006 17:57 +0100:
>>
>> One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
>> trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
>> If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
>> using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
>> than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
>> Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety
>> law is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>
> Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
> crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means
> 2 years.
It looks as if that's the same scale of incompetence and carelessness that
the man on the icy road was employing, so I guess he should get the same
sentence.
It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
Hart was villified by the press, presumably because train crashes are always
someone's fault and car crashes "just happen", and because of his private
life. It seems to me that with the Rhyl crash, people will a) victim blame,
and b) sympathise with the accused, especially as the press found him not
guilty of "behaving in a way a Daily Mail reader would tut at".
A
P
Peter B
Guest
"Simon Brooke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
> being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
> miles per hour?
In this instance it's good as it stops any question of their death being
attributed to them not doing so.
Pete.
news:[email protected]...
> What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
> being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
> miles per hour?
In this instance it's good as it stops any question of their death being
attributed to them not doing so.
Pete.
C
Call me Bob
Guest
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:11:45 +0100, Simon Brooke
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
><quote>
> The cyclists were said to be riding in pairs and wearing helmets
></quote>
>
>What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
>being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
>miles per hour?
That phrasing may actually be a good thing. Here in urc we know about
the limitations of cycle helmets, reporting the incident in this way
might just open the eyes of others don't.
Perhaps a few will realise that helmets ain't magic, and they can't
save lives in the face of careless or reckless motorists.
"Bob"
--
Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.
<[email protected]> wrote:
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/5102806.stm
>
><quote>
> The cyclists were said to be riding in pairs and wearing helmets
></quote>
>
>What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
>being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
>miles per hour?
That phrasing may actually be a good thing. Here in urc we know about
the limitations of cycle helmets, reporting the incident in this way
might just open the eyes of others don't.
Perhaps a few will realise that helmets ain't magic, and they can't
save lives in the face of careless or reckless motorists.
"Bob"
--
Email address is spam trapped, to reply directly remove the beverage.
P
Paul Boyd
Guest
On 21/06/2006 19:11, Simon Brooke said,
> What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
> being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
> miles per hour?
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. When you see how far some
of the poor cyclists were thrown, a helmet would be as much use as a
knotted hankie.
> And why the /hell/ is he not being charged with 'causing death by
> dangerous driving'?
I would have thought manslaughter would be a better charge, except that
for some reason if you're in a car you can get away with killing people.
After all, only 9 or 10 people died on the roads today, statistically.
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
> What the hell does the BBC think the relevance of cycle helmets is to
> being hit head on by a couple of tons of out of control metal at 60
> miles per hour?
I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. When you see how far some
of the poor cyclists were thrown, a helmet would be as much use as a
knotted hankie.
> And why the /hell/ is he not being charged with 'causing death by
> dangerous driving'?
I would have thought manslaughter would be a better charge, except that
for some reason if you're in a car you can get away with killing people.
After all, only 9 or 10 people died on the roads today, statistically.
--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
T
Tony Raven
Guest
p.k. wrote on 21/06/2006 21:14 +0100:
>
> That would put it in the same ball park as the Rail brakes case. Without
> evidence of "actual knowledge" he could not be so charged.
>
But any chance of that charge sticking is now zero given Chief Inspector
Adam's comments at the time. "I submit m'lud that it cannot be
dangerous driving as an experienced and senior police officer said so at
the time"
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
>
> That would put it in the same ball park as the Rail brakes case. Without
> evidence of "actual knowledge" he could not be so charged.
>
But any chance of that charge sticking is now zero given Chief Inspector
Adam's comments at the time. "I submit m'lud that it cannot be
dangerous driving as an experienced and senior police officer said so at
the time"
--
Tony
"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
S
On Wed, 21 Jun 2006 19:44:56 +0100, "Ambrose Nankivell"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
>more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
having defective tyres is not an imprisonable offence. the maximum
penalty is 3 points and a £2500 fine / per tyre. I don't think that
there is a discretionary disqualification for this offence but if he
already has 3 or more points on his licence then they can disqualify
under the 'totting up' section.
Nigel
replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
>more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
having defective tyres is not an imprisonable offence. the maximum
penalty is 3 points and a £2500 fine / per tyre. I don't think that
there is a discretionary disqualification for this offence but if he
already has 3 or more points on his licence then they can disqualify
under the 'totting up' section.
Nigel
replace SPAMHATER with n and t*sc*li with totalise
A
Al C-F
Guest
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>>naked_draughtsman wrote on 21/06/2006 17:57 +0100:
>>
>>>One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
>>>trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
>>>If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
>>>using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
>>>than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
>>>Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety
>>>law is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>>
>>Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
>>crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means
>>2 years.
>
>
> It looks as if that's the same scale of incompetence and carelessness that
> the man on the icy road was employing, so I guess he should get the same
> sentence.
>
> It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
> more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
My money's on the small fine and a few points that someone suggested
earlier.
> Tony Raven wrote:
>
>>naked_draughtsman wrote on 21/06/2006 17:57 +0100:
>>
>>>One man sent to prison for 9 years for disconnecting brakes on a
>>>trolley which hit and killed 4 on the railway.
>>>If the driver knew the tyres were faulty then he was deliberately
>>>using an unsafe vehicle (especially when the conditions were less
>>>than ideal) and the punishments should be similar to those for the
>>>Tebay 'accident'. Unfortunatley I believe that Health and Safety
>>>law is at the opposite end of the harshness scale to motoring law.
>>
>>Gary Hart got 5 years for driving while tired and causing the Selby
>>crash which killed 10 people. However we all know that 5 years means
>>2 years.
>
>
> It looks as if that's the same scale of incompetence and carelessness that
> the man on the icy road was employing, so I guess he should get the same
> sentence.
>
> It would be poor taste to open a book on it, but I don't reckon it'll be
> more than a 6 month prison sentence, if at all.
My money's on the small fine and a few points that someone suggested
earlier.
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