Ric/Dr. Coggan L2(Base) myths

[Quadsweep]

Physiologically speaking is there really any need AT ALL to be seeking the "big base" of L2?

In a recent Lemond interview Greg said that it is the long hours in the saddle at low intensities, that "anyone can do", that slowly eats away at you and causes many to over train . He then said something that blew me away. He said do QUALITY before QUANTITY! This is exactly the opposite of what guys like Friel and Carmichael say.

Now Lemond obviously has a lot of experience, is pretty up on things, and I think and he has always been on the side of exercise science and not "tradition", so I tend to sit up and take notice when he speaks.

SO with this in mind is there anything "wrong" with focusing on L4 the ENTIRE winter?
Guys like Carmichael would most certainly say YES since they like to have their riders doing a ton on JRA miles(just riding around miles) first at low L2 and then mid to high L2.

They think the body cannot gain well from L4 if it hasn't done a lot of L2 first. Well, my FTP is going up well and I sure the heck don't have a "big base" of L2.

I am starting to think this is total BS and based on "tradition" from the days when riders would take most if not all of the winters off.

I don't have a lot of time to train and I am sick and tired of slogging away for hours on end at L2 in the rain. To my surprise I am actually enjoying my indoor trainer L4 work with the TV, movies, music etc etc.
So I am doing nothing below L3 and probbaly won't until the weather gets better months from now when I will get some L2 in with group rides.

 

[rmur17]

Physiologically speaking is there really any need AT ALL to be seeking the "big base" of L2?

In a recent Lemond interview Greg said that it is the long hours in the saddle at low intensities, that "anyone can do", that slowly eats away at you and causes many to over train . He then said something that blew me away. He said do QUALITY before QUANTITY! This is exactly the opposite of what guys like Friel and Carmichael say.

Now Lemond obviously has a lot of experience, is pretty up on things, and I think and he has always been on the side of exercise science and not "tradition", so I tend to sit up and take notice when he speaks.

SO with this in mind is there anything "wrong" with focusing on L4 the ENTIRE winter?
Guys like Carmichael would most certainly say YES since they like to have their riders doing a ton on JRA miles(just riding around miles) first at low L2 and then mid to high L2.

They think the body cannot gain well from L4 if it hasn't done a lot of L2 first.

I am starting to think this is total BS and based on "tradition" from the days when riders would take most if not all of the winters off.

I don't have a lot of time to train and I am sick and tired of slogging away for hours on end at L2 in the rain. To my surprise I am actually enjoying my indoor trainer L4 work with the TV, movies, music etc etc.
So I am doing nothing below L3 and probbaly won't until the weather gets better months from now when I will get some L2 in with group rides.

join the SST crew - it's never too late

 

[whoawhoa]

join the SST crew - it's never too late

Amen brother!

Quadsweep, this drum has been beaten with a sledgehammer. If you can't predict what the answers will be by now, I'm worried about your reading comprehension abilities!

 

[carpediemracing]

Lemond had a few ideas on training which I can recall.

1. He pointed out that LSD riding didn't mean riding in a small gear. "LSD" means riding at a certain intensity - back then, LSD was the "winter" type of riding everyone did, as you pointed out. Francesco Moser came to Florida to train and twiddled around in a 42x18 for hundreds of miles. Lemond didn't agree with that. For Lemond, an easy ride was rolling around in a 53x15, if I recall correctly. When he stated this, the gear was my Junior gear limit (!).

2. He pointed out that short bursts can be done at any time as long as the legs were warm (to reduce risk of injury to tendons). He specifically said doing sprint type workouts all year should be fine. He recommended doing this twice a week max. I think his definition of a sprint was a jump to speed in a big gear or up to 60 seconds of all out effort.

3. I believe he did not endorse doing longer efforts. As I recall he didn't say you should go climb super hard. In fact, the article was written along with a LeMond training camp report. In that particular camp, there were riders who just couldn't restrain themselves, and attacked everyone, Lemond included. There was one big climb where one guy managed to distance even Lemond. As the article pointed out, we didn't read much about that February champion, but Lemond, we read all about him in July.

4. The final thing Lemond pointed out is that he has plenty of base miles - at that time it must have been 10 or 15 years of base miles. So he didn't feel the need to do the long rides which most people do during the winter. The long rides do accomplish things even for those who don't, say, race 200 km at a time, and there are substantial benefits in doing those long rides:
- after 3-4-5+ hours on the bike, you learn to be super efficient, smooth, how to sit on the bike in different ways, etc.
- you learn which gear works best - shorts, gloves, bars, tape, shoes, pedals, etc.
- you learn how your body's energy and hydration levels go down and up when you eat (sugar or protein), drink (sugar or plain water, caffeine or no caffeine), or don't eat or drink.
- when you exhaust your preferred way of approaching "ride features" (wind, hills, pothole, etc) due to being really tired, you learn other ways of approaching the same thing.
- you start doing things on autopilot when fatigued and it becomes second nature. some are performance oriented (shifting smoothly, pedaling smoothly) and some are technically oriented (efficiently bunny hopping a pothole, recovering without thinking when front tire washes out on sand).
- you notice the most minor position changes and how it affects your riding.
- eventually you develop a fluency on the bike unobtainable any other way
- this has to be done outside. super efficient trainer workouts only mean you are optimizing yourself for a trainer competition.

The last is important since I spend most of my riding time indoors. As soon as I go outside I experience all sorts of sore muscles as my bike can now tilt.

Most experienced riders think of the above mentioned habits as second nature, but for new riders, long rides go a long way towards forcing the rider to become smoother and more efficient. The winter is a good time to get riders used to new gear and work on this type of riding.

so, although my longest race is probably 25 miles long (I normally don't do road races), my training rides in Jan and Feb sometimes extend to 4-5-6+ hours and many of them are at least 3 hours long.

and in the middle of those rides, yes, I do jumps and sprints here and there.

cdr

 

[Quadsweep]

Amen brother!

Quadsweep, this drum has been beaten with a sledgehammer. If you can't predict what the answers will be by now, I'm worried about your reading comprehension abilities!

Let the hammer down anyway

I am glad I found this forum.

 

[TiMan]

Lemond had a few ideas on training which I can recall.

I think his definition of a sprint was a jump to speed in a big gear or up to 60 seconds of all out effort.

super efficient trainer workouts only mean you are optimizing yourself for a trainer competition.

The last is important since I spend most of my riding time indoors. As soon as I go outside I experience all sorts of sore muscles as my bike can now tilt. cdr

A few comments on your comments.

Lemond considered anything over 25 seconds all out was not a sprint.
Super efficient trainer workouts do not mean you are optimizing yourself for a trainer competition.....they transfer very directly to the road and in fact make you a stronger rider than simply riding on the road all the time.
Trainer workouts are harder and make me more sore than riding on the road for sure.....this is due to the no let up factor.....no down hills...no tail winds, no stop signs or traffic lights...less inertia etc etc. They also make your very tough mentally.

Training hard on a trainer makes riding on the road easier in my opinion.

 

[Squint]

All the stuff you hear about the importance of riding LSD to build base, etc., can only be true if:

 

[Spunout]

Lemond had a few ideas on training which I can recall....For Lemond, an easy ride was rolling around in a 53x15, if I recall correctly. When he stated this, the gear was my Junior gear limit (!)...

It was his limit too, and he rode it everywhere.

 

[frenchyge]

All the stuff you hear about the importance of riding LSD to build base, etc., can only be true if:

Aha! I knew I'd been riding a lot more forcefully this last year.

 

[carpediemracing]

A few comments on your comments.

Lemond considered anything over 25 seconds all out was not a sprint.
Super efficient trainer workouts do not mean you are optimizing yourself for a trainer competition.....they transfer very directly to the road and in fact make you a stronger rider than simply riding on the road all the time.
Trainer workouts are harder and make me more sore than riding on the road for sure.....this is due to the no let up factor.....no down hills...no tail winds, no stop signs or traffic lights...less inertia etc etc. They also make your very tough mentally.

Training hard on a trainer makes riding on the road easier in my opinion.

thanks for the comments.

I'm not sure if Lemond considered anything over 25 seconds a sprint, but he did define his "short hard efforts" for the purposes of training as being quite short (under 1 min).

I should clarify - trainer sessions (my standard longer sessions are 2-3 hours) definitely make you stronger for just the reasons you point out. It's also easier to do methodical workouts on the trainer.

However, in order to optimize riding on the road, at some point you have to ride on the road. The trainer simply does not allow the rider to learn the subtleties of balance, control, and awareness, all which help optimize efficiency. Using only a trainer creates a brute of a rider with little finesse. I know because I was such a product after a solid winter of aggressive trainer use.

Mixing rollers with the trainer would be very close to riding on the road. The finesse and subtlety required on the rollers (and doing things like riding one handed, no handed, changing a jersey, riding out of the saddle, etc) far exceeds that which is required on the road. However, there is nothing I'm aware of which will allow a rider to simulate doing a climb.

cdr

 

[carpediemracing]

It was his limit too, and he rode it everywhere.

Yes. At the time of the article, he was racing for La Vie Claire and was known for pushing a 56x12 in time trials. As a junior, yes, he rode the gear limit in races and rode something a little higher when racing Seniors (against, say, John Howard).

Although I graduated from the 53x15, I never got to the 56x12

cdr

 

[Squint]

However, there is nothing I'm aware of which will allow a rider to simulate doing a climb.

Probably only the bicycle treadmill. Propping up the front wheel certainly doesn't do it contrary to popular opinion.

 

[NM87710]

As a junior, yes, he rode the gear limit in races and rode something a little higher when racing Seniors (against, say, John Howard).

Back in the Lemonster NorCal era(Jr. fields of 80-100) Jr gear restrictions applied across ALL racing categories. So as a Jr. it didn't matter what race we did - we still only had 95". 1/2 racing was quite a treat - particularly some of the rr decents in the Sierras! Lemond still demolished all.

 

[rayhuang]

Yes. At the time of the article, he was racing for La Vie Claire and was known for pushing a 56x12 in time trials. As a junior, yes, he rode the gear limit in races and rode something a little higher when racing Seniors (against, say, John Howard).

Although I graduated from the 53x15, I never got to the 56x12

cdr

I'm watching the 91 and 92 Tour De France while on the trainer and Lemond is Time Trialing at what looks like 65 cadence. Huge chainring!!

This topic is one area where I still think being old school is big-that being LSD when your a beginner or in your first years in racing. You cannot beat a big base for building all the L4 and L5 on. All you end up doing by doing all that interval work before youve got a big base is being phenomonal on paper. Of course therer will always be exceptional athletes who dont train or just do intervals and beat everyone, but lets face it-they arent normal or like most of us.

Ray

 

[marmatt]

Though I agree with avoiding long L2 rides I find I need to do 3-4 hr rides in L2-3 with some SST thrown in to get my TSS up- if I do a 2 hour indoor ride with 2x20 sst my TSS only registers around 100---not to mention the toughness gained from braving the elements here in northern utah in winter-when race season comes and it snows or rains on a race 95% of the guys throw in the towel mentally--and I get a chance to win

 

[doctorSpoc]

i am a real fan of LeMonds training methods.. the reason he said that traditional L2 base miles are not needed is because he never took more that two weeks off the bike "there is no off season" so he never needed to ride those base miles.. he built on what he had year over year.. those L2 base miles are only necessary if you take a month or two off like most italian racers did back in the day.. he heavily critisized others for taking the whole winter right off and then having to build back up slowly.. as well he structures his weeks and macro cycles much differently... endurance rides are built into the weekly structure and are done year round meaning you don't have to do secondary builds throughout the year like you would with Friel or Carmichael (basically the same) because you are alway doing endurance anyway

he is an advocate of sprinting all year long 10 to 20s max all out efforts and believe that everyone needs to sprint as well as they are able to

 

[doctorSpoc]

Squint.. i've seen that chart you presented many times and i've never seen it with that top row... where did you get that chart?

this is the one i've seen before... Edit - can't get the chart to show properly... and what is a midichlorian?

 

[TiMan]

i am a real fan of LeMonds training methods.. the reason he said that traditional L2 base miles are not needed is because he never took more that two weeks off the bike "there is no off season" so he never needed to ride those base miles.. he built on what he had year over year.. those L2 base miles are only necessary if you take a month or two off like most italian racers did back in the day.. he heavily critisized others for taking the whole winter right off and then having to build back up slowly.. as well he structures his weeks and macro cycles much differently... endurance rides are built into the weekly structure and are done year round meaning you don't have to do secondary builds throughout the year like you would with Friel or Carmichael (basically the same) because you are alway doing endurance anyway

he is an advocate of sprinting all year long 10 to 20s max all out efforts and believe that everyone needs to sprint as well as they are able to

I am a huge believer in the Lemond training approach too and especially for the drug free racer. In fact I have been this fan since his first book cam out in 87. It has served me very well.
In my opinion the only "new and improved" thing to training since the 70's is training using heart rate monitor and much more importantly training with a power meter......but the structure of effective training has not changed.
What you said is correct except both Friel and Carmichael's guys don't take more than a couple weeks off at the end of the season and they STILL do a huge low level L2 base. I think it is BS and the only real thing it accomplishes is to give the riders a mental break.....L2 is easy and as Lemond said "anyone can do lots of endurance riding".

 

[marmatt]

Then what is your guys take on Hunter Allen and Frank Overtons advice on having a "base" of 6-8 SST sessions under your belt before moving on to upper level 4 and above(as well as re-visiting that mid-summer) It seems that alot of people here are quite confident in their winter sst sessions. I'm still kind of like a deer in the headlights at this point since training with power is proving to be such an epiphany for me

 

[Monastero]

http://www.theforce.net/midichlorians/

Squint.. i've seen that chart you presented many times and i've never seen it with that top row... where did you get that chart?

this is the one i've seen before... Edit - can't get the chart to show properly... and what is a midichlorian?