Richmond Park - Cops campaign v speeding cyclists !



Ian G Batten wrote:

> There is also nothing stopping someone who is concerned
> that they may exceed a bicycle speed limit from purchasing
> a cycle computer (20 pounds).
>
> ian
>

6.99 in Argos!

Jules
 
On 30/6/04 3:01 pm, in article
[email protected], "Julesh"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> IIRC the trail was built as a shared Farcility when
> cycling on other paths in the park was banned in the early
> 90's and the majority of its users are cyclists (horses
> have their own tracks, pedestrians can

Cycling on anything other than the roads or bridlepaths has
always been illegal. There was nothing new in the 1990's to
make riding on other paths illegal.

> happily wander at will in the 2500 acres available, and
> much of tghe trail is too steep to want to push a
> wheelchair. As the path follows the perimeter wall (while
> the roads lead from gate to gate) it obviously wasn't
> intended as a route to anywhere (perhaps that's why it's a
> "leisure" route?)

Indeed. I looked at it but decided it was ****.

>
> Hovever, many younger MTB'ers seem to like it so perhaps
> it has its uses for some?

..d
 
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 14:18:51 +0000 (UTC), Ian G Batten
<[email protected]> wrote in message <cbui4b$vlu$1@news-
out.ftel.co.uk>:

>> Are you seriously suggesting that without a speedometer
>> you are completely unable to estimate your speed or
>> compare it approximately with times when you have had a
>> speedometer?

>Especially as it's a regular cry amongst people opposed to
>speeding drivers that when they say ``ah, but if I'm
>looking at the speedometer I'm not looking at the road'' to
>say ``but you should know how fast you're going based upon
>gear and revs''. Why is it different for cyclists?

It is not necessary to give 100% attention to the speedo in
order to know how fast you are going. Nor is it easy to
judge from "feel" how fast you are going without
occasionally checking the speedo.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after
posting. http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at
Washington University
 
Julesh wrote:
>>
> IIRC the trail was built as a shared Farcility

your prejudice is showing - it is not a route to or from
anywhere it is a cycling / walking route away from traffic
through "countryside".

pk
 
David Martin wrote:

> On 30/6/04 3:01 pm, in article
> [email protected], "Julesh"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>IIRC the trail was built as a shared Farcility when
>>cycling on other paths in the park was banned in the early
>>90's and the majority of its users are cyclists (horses
>>have their own tracks, pedestrians can
>
>
> Cycling on anything other than the roads or bridlepaths
> has always been illegal. There was nothing new in the
> 1990's to make riding on other paths illegal.
>

Your right - but, in my experience, off-road cycling in the
park become a lot more popular with the popularity of MTBs
and enforcement of the "no cycling" rule then became
stricter (or maybe I was just unlucky).

Jules
 
"PK" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> I was driving in the park on Sunday - parking and walking
> not driving through - and stuck rigidly to the 20 mph
> limit. It would certainly discourage me from using the
> park as a cut through!

Did you find, as I have when driving there recently, that
you quickly acquired a queue of irritable tailgating
motorists behind you, with the occasional one accelerating
past at high speed?

--
Dave...
 
"Dr Curious" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Dave Kahn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

> > Not really, because the roadie could always claim to
> > have taken the short cut across the middle.
>
> ...
>
> Plod: Excuse me sir you've just lapped the Park in 16
> minutes 30 seconds.
>
> Roadie: Wot me officer ? Oh no I cycled across the grass!
> What's more I'm willing to swear on the Bible in Court if
> necessary, that cycling across grass or on woodcihppings,
> often on a bike resembling a stripped down motorbike, is a
> lot more fun than cycling fast on roads.

Who said anything about cycling on grass and woodchippings?
There is a road through the middle that enables you to
shortcut the circuit.

--
Dave...
 
Dave Kahn wrote:
> "PK" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> I was driving in the park on Sunday - parking and walking
>> not driving through - and stuck rigidly to the 20 mph
>> limit. It would certainly discourage me from using the
>> park as a cut through!
>
> Did you find, as I have when driving there recently, that
> you quickly acquired a queue of irritable tailgating
> motorists behind you, with the occasional one accelerating
> past at high speed?

No, i was surprised to find a well behaved tail behind me!
Suggesting of course that the tail wanted to go faster than
20 mph but they were well behaved!

pk
 
"Dave Kahn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Dr Curious" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Dave Kahn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
>
> > > Not really, because the roadie could always claim to
> > > have taken the short cut across the middle.
> >
> > ...
> >
> > Plod: Excuse me sir you've just lapped the Park in 16
> > minutes 30 seconds.
> >
> > Roadie: Wot me officer ? Oh no I cycled across the
> > grass! What's more I'm willing to swear on the Bible in
> > Court if necessary, that cycling across grass or on
> > woodcihppings, often on a bike resembling a stripped
> > down motorbike, is a lot more fun than cycling fast on
> > roads.
>
> Who said anything about cycling on grass and
> woodchippings? There is a road through the middle that
> enables you to shortcut the circuit.

Going anti-clockwise you go up the hill just past the
Kingston Gate turn along at the top past the car park and at
the crossroads there's a turn to your left that used to go
up a hill past a building of some sorts and bring you back
onto the road back up to the Main gate. The only time I
ventured along there I remember that road as being unmade a
lot of the way. You may be right however maybe its been
surfaced in the meantime. (ha ha)I'm almost tempted to go
down there for a spin but I understand there are now speed
humps as well. The motorists in there were often a pain, and
what the new slow moving considerate ones are going to be
like, I fear to think. The best time used to be early around
5-6 ish in Summer.

Curious

>
> --
> Dave...
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>On 30 Jun 2004 14:49:57 +0100 (BST),
>[email protected] (Alan Braggins) wrote
>
>>Are you seriously suggesting that without a speedometer
>>you are completely unable to estimate your speed or
>>compare it approximately with times when you have had a
>>speedometer?
>
>Not with any degree of accuracy, no. I can do it if I can
>calibrate every few minutes by looking at the magic number,
>but I can't do it cold.

But you don't have to do it with any great degree of
accuracy, any more than you have to estmate your blood
alcohol level to any great degree of accuracy to be sure you
aren't over that limit. If you are doing 10 mph +/- 9 mph,
then you can be sure you aren't doing more than 20mph.
 
On 30/6/04 5:56 pm, in article [email protected], "Dr Curious"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> Who said anything about cycling on grass and
>> woodchippings? There is a road through the middle that
>> enables you to shortcut the circuit.
>
>
> Going anti-clockwise you go up the hill just past the
> Kingston Gate turn along at the top past the car park and
> at the crossroads there's a turn to your left that used to
> go up a hill past a building of some sorts and bring you
> back onto the road back up to the Main gate.

That'll be left at the Robin Hood gate road and up to Pen
Ponds, across past the White Lodge (Royal Ballet School) and
down to the junction by sheen gate.

If you go left just before teh pen ponds car park then you
come out by the road to Ham gate.

> The only time I ventured along there I remember that road
> as being unmade a lot of the way. You may be right however
> maybe its been surfaced in the meantime. (ha ha)I'm almost
> tempted to go down there for a spin but I understand there
> are now speed humps as well. The motorists in there were
> often a pain, and what the new slow moving considerate
> ones are going to be like, I fear to think. The best time
> used to be early around 5-6 ish in Summer.

They had actually stopped cycling along here at some point
for a brief period in the late 80's, or that could have been
the road up to Thatched House.

..d
 
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:50:28 +0100, David Martin
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 30/6/04 5:56 pm, in article 2kg9nlF24h1tU1@uni-
>berlin.de, "Dr Curious" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>> Who said anything about cycling on grass and
>>> woodchippings? There is a road through the middle that
>>> enables you to shortcut the circuit.
>>
>>
>> Going anti-clockwise you go up the hill just past the
>> Kingston Gate turn along at the top past the car park and
>> at the crossroads there's a turn to your left that used
>> to go up a hill past a building of some sorts and bring
>> you back onto the road back up to the Main gate.
>
>That'll be left at the Robin Hood gate road and up to Pen
>Ponds, across past the White Lodge (Royal Ballet School)
>and down to the junction by sheen gate.
>
>If you go left just before teh pen ponds car park then you
>come out by the road to Ham gate.

...

No. If you enter at the Star and Garter at the top of the
hill and turn right, then its downhill all the way to the
Kingston Gate. On your right you immediately pass the car
park with the tearoom and Lodge and further down the road to
the Ham Gate. Before you reach the Kingston Gate you do a
sharp left and climb the steepest hill in the park, it winds
left and then right through trees and you emerge at the top.
It's then pretty flat and you pass another car park on your
right, and then you meet a crossroads - I assume the right
hand road leads to another Gate - I have an A t Z in the
other room and anyway it would be on Streetfinder - the
straight ahead continues the cicuit of the Park and the left
turn takes you through trees past a bulding on the right
maybe a lodge but seemed nondescript IIRR. Through trees and
the road or track then leads in a slight climb to the road
on the far side which turning left [A]leads back to the Star
and Garter. So the shortened circuit has the Star and Garter
and the Kindgston Gate as the legitimate parts and the
circuit cuts across the park half way

'. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
[e]..<........<......<.....<..... ' ^ V ' ' ^ V hill
SG....>......>..........>.......Kingston Gate

>
>> The only time I ventured along there I remember that road
>> as being unmade a lot of the way. You may be right
>> however maybe its been surfaced in the meantime. (ha
>> ha)I'm almost tempted to go down there for a spin but I
>> understand there are now speed humps as well. The
>> motorists in there were often a pain, and what the new
>> slow moving considerate ones are going to be like, I fear
>> to think. The best time used to be early around 5-6 ish
>> in Summer.
>
>They had actually stopped cycling along here at some point
>for a brief period in the late 80's, or that could have
>been the road up to Thatched House.
>

I think I remember ocasionally seeing red No Entry signs
posted on the road, as it emerged [A] onto the main road
back up to the Star and Garter gate.

>..d
>

Curious
 
On 30/6/04 10:31 pm, in article [email protected], "Dr
Curious" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:50:28 +0100, David Martin
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 30/6/04 5:56 pm, in article 2kg9nlF24h1tU1@uni-
>> berlin.de, "Dr Curious" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>

>>> Going anti-clockwise you go up the hill just past the
>>> Kingston Gate turn along at the top past the car park
>>> and at the crossroads there's a turn to your left that
>>> used to go up a hill past a building of some sorts and
>>> bring you back onto the road back up to the Main gate.

>> That'll be left at the Robin Hood gate road and up to Pen
>> Ponds, across past the White Lodge (Royal Ballet School)
>> and down to the junction by sheen gate.

>> If you go left just before teh pen ponds car park then
>> you come out by the road to Ham gate.

> ...

> No. If you enter at the Star and Garter at the top of the
> hill and turn right, then its downhill all the way to the
> Kingston Gate. On your right you immediately pass the car
> park with the tearoom and Lodge and further down the road
> to the Ham Gate. Before you reach the Kingston Gate you do
> a sharp left and climb the steepest hill in the park, it
> winds left and then right through trees and you emerge at
> the top.

Lets get this straight. You are talking about coming in at
Richmond gate and heading towards kingston gate. Immediately
before kingston gate you turn left and go up Dark Hill. At
the top you pass Ladderstile gate (no vehicular access, foot
access only), pass the car park and the track that leads to
the Isabella plantation and then go down Test Hill to Robin
Hood gate (used to be vehicular access, went ingress only
during the early eighties IIRC and now appears to be no
vehicular access.). The crossroads here leads to Roehampton
gate (straight on) or to Pen Ponds car park (left.)

If you go left then you can either bear left which takes you
to the junction leading to Ham gate, if you go right you go
past the Royal Ballet School and end up on the main road at
the junction leading to Sheen gate between Roehampton gate
and Richmond gate. The main vehicular access to the royal
ballet school is typically from the Sheen Gate side. The
building is fairly nondescript from the road side and a lot
better from the garden side.

> It's then pretty flat and you pass another car park on
> your right, and then you meet a crossroads - I assume the
> right hand road leads to another Gate - I have an A t Z in
> the other room and anyway it would be on Streetfinder -
> the straight ahead continues the cicuit of the Park and
> the left turn takes you through trees past a bulding on
> the right maybe a lodge but seemed nondescript IIRR.
> Through trees and the road or track then leads in a slight
> climb to the road on the far side which turning left
> [A]leads back to the Star and Garter. So the shortened
> circuit has the Star and Garter and the Kindgston Gate as
> the legitimate parts and the circuit cuts across the park
> half way

RO '. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ' ' ' ' ' ' ' '
SH..[A]..< RBS ....<.PP..<.....<.........RH ' | ^ V
| ' ' | ^--LS V | hill
SG....>......>..........>.......Kingston Gate HG

*SG (Star and Garter), HG (Ham Gate), *Kingston Gate LS
Ladderstile Gate *RH Robin Hood gate PP Pen Ponds RBS Royal
ballet school *RO Roehampton Gate *SH Sheen gate

* indicates a roundabout.

I grew up within walking distance of the park during the
70's and 80's so know it fairly well. I even worked during
one college vacation at the Royal Ballet School so I do know
it fairly well..

..d
 
On 30 Jun 2004 10:55:04 GMT, [email protected] (Doctor J.
Frink) wrote (more or less):

>On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:08:03 +0000 (UTC), PK
><[email protected]> wrote:
>>Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course. But the fact remains that a by-law has been
>>> introduced which applies to a class of vehicle not
>>> usually covered, and where there can be no expectation
>>> that more than a minority of those covered will have any
>>> means of measuring speed, and where the maximum likely
>>> speed is in any case not much more than the posted
>>> limit. It seems like a lot of work for no good effect,
>>> to me.
>>
>>The issue wrt the Park is not speed per se.
>
>But that's what is being policed. I just don't see there
>being a significant increase in danger to others and
>impact on the environment between a cyclist at 20mph and
>one at 25mph.

Even cyclists are subject to the non-linear increase in
energy and braking distance caused by increases in speed.

For the 25% increase in speed from 20mph to 25mph there is:

a 25% decrease in reaction time available at least a 56%
increase in braking distance a 56% increase in energy level

>A biker can be plenty dangerous enough at slower speeds if
>they ride irresponsibly. If it's dangerous cycling that
>needs to be dealt with then deal with dangerous cycling,
>arbitrary speed limits appear to me to have little
>correlation.

As can be seen from the above, a significant increase in
speed (like 25%) has even more significant increases in
distance to brake to a stop, and energy carried by the bike
and its rider.

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:45:52 +0100, Tony Raven <junk@raven-
family.com> wrote (more or less): ...
>OK lets take a different example to get round this "you
>don't have to drink to drive" etc. red herrings. Tyre
>tread. It is illegal to drive with less than 1.6mm tread
>depth in a continuous band over the central 75% of the
>tyre. No cars are equipped with vernier callipers to do
>those measurements. You can have not bothered to look at
>your tyres for years. You cannot really drive your car
>without the tyres. If you drove with tyres that are
>illegal and were stopped the fact that you did not know
>and had no means provided for you to know would not be a
>defence. If you want to be sure you are not breaking the
>law go out and buy a tyre depth gauge and do the necessary
>measurements otherwise rely on your eyeball judgement and
>hope its right.

...But.

Tyre wear does not happen suddenly within one trip in the
car. It is not necessary to continuously check tyre tread
remaining during a given journey.

Ancillary measurement devices are plentiful and cheap, and
need only be consulted infrequently, unless one has been
experiencing gross handling problems or soft/flat tyres.

These devices can be as trivial as a plastic depth guage, a
coin, or inspecting by eye.

...

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk
 
Gawnsoft <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> Tyre wear does not happen suddenly within one trip in
> the car.

Point of information, Mr. Chairman. It can do if the
tracking is out of adjustment.

--
Dave...

I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve
it through not dying. — Woody Allen
 
Doctor J. Frink wrote:
>
> Preventing people riding like dicks through parks is to be
> encouraged, but setting a 20mph speed limit doesn't seem
> the right way to me, and the vast majority of the cyclists
> will not know or have any way of knowing they're breaking
> that speed limit. If the limit is being applied to bikes
> then I hope there are very clear signs around the park
> pointing this out, and maybe giving cyclists some idea of
> how to abide by it (ie the next sign is x miles away, you
> shouldn't see it in less than y minutes).
>

We're back to the motorists arguements as to why they
shouldn't have to obey speed limits and the Hull discussion
over whether they should be prosecuted for speeding in a
30mph zone which had no 30mph repeater signs.

Tony
 
PK wrote:
>
> Are you Paul Smith in disguise? the anti camera lobby use
> that argument all the time!
>

My thoughts exactly. We argue so vehemously for motorists
to stick to the speed limits and then turn round in the
pretty unique circumstances where they apply to us and deny
there being any need for us to stick to speed limits.
NIBMYism at its best!

Tony
 
On 2 Jul 2004 01:59:30 -0700, [email protected] (Dave Kahn) wrote
(more or less):

>Gawnsoft
><[email protected]> wrote
>in message
>news:<[email protected]>...
>
>> Tyre wear does not happen suddenly within one trip in
>> the car.
>
>Point of information, Mr. Chairman. It can do if the
>tracking is out of adjustment.

Quite true. I was sure that I had had a without gross
handling problems being apparent when driving, but it's
not their.

Maybe I'm getting confused with a recent uk.rec.driving
post, or somesuch.

Anyway, my apologies for having mislaid the requisite
phrase.

--
Cheers, Euan Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122 Smalltalk
links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk)
http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk