Ride Melbourne's CityLink Tunnel with Critical Mass!



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Yeah, checked out your website... You're not old enough to have made a decision as to whether you
are a hippy or not

"Jeremy Lunn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Andrew Morris
wrote:
> > Hey Stu, ever seen a hippy in the snow??? They'd be polluting the environment by using equipment
> > driven on occasion by a diesel
generator....
>
> AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine. Btw for the record I'm not
> a hippy.
>
> --
> Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
> next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
"Jeremy Lunn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Andrew Morris
wrote:
> > You're a gem Jeremy.... I gather you are also ****** off by other
cyclists,
> > and walkers, and dogs, cats, people, etc???
>
> Other cyclists? Generally not... Walkers? Depends where they are and what they're doing (e.g.
> every cyclists gets ****** off with groups who take up the whole width of the bike path)

****... Most bikepaths are shared these days... If you dont like it, be a grown up, and ride on
the road...

>. Dogs? Depends if they're under control and where they are. Cats?
They shouldn't be outdoors.
>
> --
> Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
> next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Andrew Morris wrote:
> Actually, no, I retract that comment.... I just looked at Jeremy's web page

And the relevance that has to anything?

> (yep, I'm bored).... Jeremy's mum probably wont let him borrow the car, hence he rides his bike
> everywhere, or gets PT when his mum wont drive him....

I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want (except for commuting). I could buy a car but I've
got beter things to spend my money on.

> Come back to commenting on issues such as this when you've got some more real world experience
> Jeremy...

Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak hour
(regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere.

> You've argued about all manner of issues stemming from the Critical Mass debate, yet you admit
> you've never ridden in one.

Irrelevant.

> Clearly, you've no real idea as to what you're talking about...

Wrong.

> Welcome to my ignore list...

Doesn't worry me.

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
jeremy said
>Not really, can only drive it when it's available. I don't particularly mind if other people can
>drive though we need to dramatically reduce the number of vehicles on our roads.
but he then said
>I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want (except for commuting).
you really have to make up your mind

>AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine.
but wait you haven't been to the snow since you were 15 and surely you couldn't have been to them
all? **** they even use electricity to make snow!!!! now there is a good use for oil/cool

>>>Don't want that... nothing wrong with one or two changes are long as you don't have to wait more
>>>than a few minutes.
>> l am talking about the walk from your home to the bus stop and from your final bus stop to where
>> you want to be
>
>It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.
now that's just BS, why do you think they drive??????????? why would someone put up with peak hour
and take an hour to get home if they could be home in 45 minutes by public transport?

>> nope coz like you said its very unlikely to happen. but my first guess is coz it would coat so
>> damn much
>It's got to happen sometime
why?

>Oh well, less pollution,
nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later
>less road trauma
maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak hour(but l could be wrong)
>less pedestrian hostile.....
what's this?(BTW there aren't any pedestrians in the tunnel to be saved by
CM)

>Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak hour
>(regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere
if that were true then where did all the cars go?? l will say it again, people do not drive there
cars to **** you off they drive because its faster/cheaper/convenient/comfortable have to go
shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone, how long do you think that would
take by PT?
 
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 00:05:56 +1000, "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Critical Mass is not an organization and does not have spokesmen.. It's basically a coincidental
>> gathering of like minded people who go wherever they feel like, which usually involves one of up
>> to a few xeroxed maps that get handed out at the start of the ride..
>
>Yeah, you're right... They're not a "regular" organisation... they're a bloody terrorist
>organisation....

Did you keep your fridge magnet? Perhaps it's time you started ranting to the phone operators on the
terrorism hotline.. :)

PC
 
In article <[email protected]>, stu wrote:
> jeremy said
>>Not really, can only drive it when it's available. I don't particularly mind if other people can
>>drive though we need to dramatically reduce the number of vehicles on our roads.
> but he then said
>>I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want (except for commuting).
> you really have to make up your mind

I don't see how that contradicts.... it's not available when I commute....

>>AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine.
> but wait you haven't been to the snow since you were 15 and surely you couldn't have been to
> them all?

A fair number. At least some lifts that were brand new and located near electricity supply.

> **** they even use electricity to make snow!!!! now there is a good use for oil/cool

AFAIK they use more water (the older snow making machines didn't even use electricity). Not that
electricity has to come from fossil fuel anyway.

>>It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.
> now that's just BS, why do you think they drive??????????? why would someone put up with peak hour
> and take an hour to get home if they could be home in 45 minutes by public transport?

Usually they drive when there isn't satisfactory public transport services available, not because
they have to walk to it. Five minutes is nothing. Some people will walk up to 10 minutes, but
generally not any further unless they ave captive users.

>>It's got to happen sometime
> why?

It's happened in other cities, including Perth.
>
>>Oh well, less pollution,
> nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later

Not necessarily.

>>less road trauma
> maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak hour(but l could
> be wrong)

Reduced road capacity = less cars on the road = fewer collisions

>>less pedestrian hostile.....
> what's this?

Where Melbourne's urban environment is hostile to pedestrians. Try walking somewhere and you'll know
what I mean.

>(BTW there aren't any pedestrians in the tunnel to be saved by
> CM)

Oh well, I'm sure the same motorists that use it contribute to pedestrian hostility.

>>Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak hour
>>(regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars everywhere
> if that were true then where did all the cars go??

Onto the roads....

> l will say it again, people do not drive there cars to **** you off they drive because its
> faster/cheaper/convenient/comfortable

Or because they don't have a choice (btw public transport is cheaper if you consider the cost of
purchasing a car). Still they don't have to be so inconsiderate to other road users.

> have to go shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone, how long do you think
> that would take by PT?

If I live in Bayswater I wouldn't bother going to Chadstone. I live closer to Chadstone now than you
do and I never go there.

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
>> It's negligible. People don't mind a five minute walk.
> now that's just BS, why do you think they drive??????????? why would someone put up with peak hour
> and take an hour to get home if they could be home in 45 minutes by public transport?

Because they're selfish. They want their own "space" in a community of one person, despite the fact
that being sequestered in a mobile steel cage has a measurable impact on disconnectedness from your
feloow human beings. This selfishness is the same reason that people buy 4WD's for *their* familiy,
with no regard to the fact that they are demonstrably 20 times more unsafe for other road users when
crashes occur. (Yes, there is survey research to back this claim up).

>> less road trauma
> maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak hour(but l could
> be wrong)

Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is overwhelmingly skewed between
the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.

>> less pedestrian hostile.....
> what's this?(BTW there aren't any pedestrians in the tunnel to be saved by
> CM)

The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried to
walk across a freeway to get to the shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink have
caused a massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee Valley at almost
all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25% at some hours of the day, whereas when
the tollway was being built, local residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the
tollway would be so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city streets.
Not to mention the effect that the Tunnel has on air pollution in the inner suburbs. I live less
than 300 metres from one of CityStink's tunnel exhaust stacks (where all the car fumes are pumped
out in one concentrated stream).The protests of thousands of local residents for better "air
scrubbing" technology were completely ignored when they built their tunnel.

>> Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak
>> hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars
>> everywhere
> if that were true then where did all the cars go?? l will say it again, people do not drive there
> cars to **** you off they drive because its faster/cheaper/convenient/comfortable have to go
> shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone, how long do you think that would
> take by PT?

You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious? You can't find some shops
closer to you, rather than driving half-way across town in your smogmobile so you can buy a new
shirt or VCR? You are a prime example of the selfish attitude referred to above.
 
>>Not really, can only drive it when it's available I can borrow the car pretty much whenever I want
come now they aren't the same thing at all

>>>AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine.
>> but wait you haven't been to the snow since you were 15 and surely you couldn't have been to
>> them all?
>A fair number. At least some lifts that were brand new and located near electricity supply.
but it was you that said "AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine" not
that it really matters there is still fuel being burnt to save you walking but a hill

>AFAIK they use more water (the older snow making machines didn't even use electricity).
l think you will find that the water is first pumped up the hill and then pumped at a higher
pressure to the nozzles

>Not that electricity has to come from fossil fuel anyway.
umm l really don't want to go here you are right it doesn't have to, but it mostly does and if you
want it at the price we are paying now then it will stay that way. lets see you get another damn
built for some hydro

>Usually they drive when there isn't satisfactory public transport services available, not because
>they have to walk to it. Five minutes is nothing. Some people will walk up to 10 minutes, but
>generally not any further unless they ave captive users.
so how is what CM is doing going to help fix that?

>>>It's got to happen sometime
>> why?
>It's happened in other cities, including Perth
and were did they get the money from? NSW and VIC we pay to help run the rest of the states

>>>Oh well, less pollution,
>> nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later
>Not necessarily
want to bet?

>>>less road trauma
>> maybe a little but l don't think there is to much road trauma during peak hour(but l could
>> be wrong)
>Reduced road capacity = less cars on the road = fewer collisions

>Where Melbourne's urban environment is hostile to pedestrians. Try walking somewhere and you'll
>know what I mean.
the pedestrians are hostile to pedestrians.

>>>Doesn't take much real world experience to realise that you can't get anywhere by car in peak
>>>hour (regardless of whether there's a CM or not). The roads are just clogged up by cars
>>>everywhere
>> if that were true then where did all the cars go??
>Onto the roads....
no all the cars make it home as do there drivers

>Or because they don't have a choice (btw public transport is cheaper if you consider the cost of
>purchasing a car). Still they don't have to be so inconsiderate to other road users.
BS next time you want so rocks for your garden try PT and see how cheap and practical it is but l
must say l wish my mum would let me sponge her car still

>> have to go shopping now, l am in bayswater and have to get to chadstone,
how
>> long do you think that would take by PT?
>If I live in Bayswater I wouldn't bother going to Chadstone. I live closer to Chadstone now than
>you do and I never go there.
so now you are going to tell me where to shop? l didn't go to Chadstone as such be a place near by
to buy a battery for my bike l wanted you to tell me how to get from bayswater to chadstone by PT
 
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 02:08:08 GMT, ghostwombat <[email protected]> wrote:

>The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried
>to walk across a freeway to get to the shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink
>have caused a massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee Valley at
>almost all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25% at some hours of the day, whereas
>when the tollway was being built, local residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the
>tollway would be so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city streets.

It's not just tolls.. Don't forget that if it was a free freeway, the traffic build up would be
uncontrollable, and in five years or so, the congestion on the freeway would have built up so much
that you'd have the same effect as tolls have.. Just look at the Eastern Freeway or the Ring Road,
you have cars venturing out onto parallel roads thinking they can get a better run there, clogging
up those roads as well..

PC
 
In article <[email protected]>, stu wrote:
>>A fair number. At least some lifts that were brand new and located near electricity supply.
> but it was you that said "AFAIK ski lifts aren't electric, they run purely off a diesel engine"
> not that it really matters there is still fuel being burnt to save you walking but a hill

I didn't say that they were electric. Last time I was at the mountains they were all diesel and any
that I didn't use were too remote for an electricity supply anyway. Anyway it's totally irrelevant.

>>Not that electricity has to come from fossil fuel anyway.
> umm l really don't want to go here you are right it doesn't have to, but it mostly does and if you
> want it at the price we are paying now then it will stay that way. lets see you get another damn
> built for some hydro

Nuclear energy.... wind power.... what about that big solar chimney that's being built out in
the desert?

>>It's happened in other cities, including Perth
> and were did they get the money from? NSW and VIC we pay to help run the rest of the states

Actually they delayed freeway projects in order to fix up their public transport.

>>> nope we will still use up all the oil sooner or later
>>Not necessarily
> want to bet?

Because we can use less and less of it and there will be other alternatives. None the less it's not
the only issue with using motor vehicles for urban transport.

>>Where Melbourne's urban environment is hostile to pedestrians. Try walking somewhere and you'll
>>know what I mean.
> the pedestrians are hostile to pedestrians.

When do you ever see pedestrians walking into other pedestrians and killing them?

>>Onto the roads....
> no all the cars make it home as do there drivers

Eventually.... after they've been sitting in traffic jams for half the night.

> BS next time you want so rocks for your garden try PT and see how cheap and practical it is but l
> must say l wish my mum would let me sponge her car still

Last time I checked, it wasn't too practical to take rocks in our car anyway so we rang up and had
them delivered. Didn't even have to leave home.

> so now you are going to tell me where to shop?

No, shop where you like, I don't care.

> l didn't go to Chadstone as such be a place near by to buy a battery for my bike

I'm sure there would be other places that are more PT accessible. Besides that kind of trip is
occasional so it doesn't hurt *so* much to drive, as it does for your weekday commute.

> l wanted you to tell me how to get from bayswater to chadstone by PT

Train to Box Hill then 767 or 700 bus?

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
>Because they're selfish. They want their own "space" in a community of one person, despite the fact
>that being sequestered in a mobile steel cage has
a
>measurable impact on disconnectedness from your feloow human beings

>This selfishness is the same reason that people buy 4WD's for *their*
familiy,
>with no regard to the fact that they are demonstrably 20 times more unsafe for other road users
>when crashes occur. (Yes, there is survey research to back this claim up).
less safe for themselves to

>Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is overwhelmingly skewed between
>the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures? could it be that that is when most car/bicycle
are on the road???

>The huge big freeway that runs out each end of the tunnel cuts neighbourhoods in half. Ever tried
>to walk across a freeway to get to the shops? Plus, drivers trying to dodge the tolls on CityStink
>have caused a massive increase in traffic volumes on local roads in Stonnington & Moonee Valley at
>almost all hours of the day. The increase in traffic is up to 25% at some hours of the day, whereas
>when the tollway was being built, local residents were promised a traffic-free nirvana, because the
>tollway would
be
>so attractive to motorists that no-one would want to drive on inner-city streets. Not to mention
>the effect that the Tunnel has on air pollution in the inner suburbs. I live less than 300 metres
>from one of CityStink's tunnel exhaust stacks (where all the car fumes are pumped out in one
>concentrated stream).The protests of thousands of local residents for
better
>"air scrubbing" technology were completely ignored when they built their tunnel.
the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek or the yarra river so
unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not sure what you are talking about. the other end
it all in the air. where there any roads closed because of city link?

>You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious? You can't find some shops
>closer to you, rather than driving half-way across town in your smogmobile so you can buy a new
>shirt or VCR? You are a prime example of the selfish attitude referred to above.
oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop? list of your travels plans for the next
month please and l will decide which trips you can and cant make if you can if a place in bayswater
that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for
the light on my bike and yes if l had more time today l would gladly have ridden there but l don't
so l couldn't
 
In article <[email protected]>, stu wrote:
>>Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is overwhelmingly skewed between
>>the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
> l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures? could it be that that is when most
> car/bicycle are on the road???

Now you see the point? The less cars on the road, the better.....

> the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek or the yarra river so
> unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not sure what you are talking about. the other
> end it all in the air. where there any roads closed because of city link?

Try East Malvern where they knocked down houses and cut through prestigous suburbs. None the less
I'd rather have a park with a creek running through it than a freeway. Quiet recrecreation/leisure
places away from traffic are needed. What about the Yarra banks that are spoilt by the freeway?

> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop? list of your travels plans for the next
> month please and l will decide which trips you can and cant make if you can if a place in
> bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part
> is, its for the light on my

And you're trying to say that there's a freeway from Bayswater to Chadstone? I don't
believe here is.

--
Jeremy Lunn Melbourne, Australia Homepage: http://www.austux.net/ http://www.jabber.org.au/ - the
next generation of Instant Messaging.
 
>> Are you kidding? Road trauma (*especially* car/bicycle accidents) is overwhelmingly skewed
>> between the hours of 8am-10am & 4pm-6pm.
> l said maybe, l could be wrong, you got some figures?

Go to: http://crashstat1.roads.vic.gov.au:10243/crashstats/crash.htm and you can generate as many
reports as you like about all kinds of road trauma, viewable by all sorts of variables including
time of day.

> the "huge big freeway" on one end is either above or next to gardeners creek or the yarra river so
> unless you walk to the shops included a swim l am not sure what you are talking about. the other
> end it all in the air. where there any roads closed because of city link?

Ummm... last time I looked that freeway went all the way to Geelong in one direction, and out past
Dandenong in the other. Is it in the air? I think not. Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt
St, Fishermans Bend, Newport... I could go on & on about suburbs which are chopped in half.

And have you ever kayaked on the Yarra River in the shade of the freeway, and heard how it sounds
like you're kayaking down the median strip of Nepean Highway? Or tried to access the Yarra Banks
from the Richmond side? (What little is left of the Yarra Banks, that is, after the builders &
renovators of the multi-lane smog sewer were finished with them.)

> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop? list of your travels plans for the next
> month please and l will decide which trips you can and cant make if you can if a place in
> bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA batteries for $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part
> is, its for the light on my bike and yes if l had more time today l would gladly have ridden there
> but l don't so l couldn't

You obviously had enough time today to write 3 patronisingly **** posts on this topic. Maybe you
need a time-management course, or need to learn how to type faster. Then you could do all of that
and still be able to ride to Chadstone. I really love "cyclists" like you who drive half-way across
town to buy a part for their bike. Do you put your bike on the back of your car when you head down
to Beach Rd on a Sunday morning as well?
 
>Ummm... last time I looked that freeway went all the way to Geelong in one direction, and out past
>Dandenong in the other.
umm and just how long have they been there??

>Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt St, Fishermans Bend, Newport... I could go on & on
>about suburbs which are chopped in half.
most of there roads were on the planing board for years railway lines do just as good a job of
cutting suburbs in half

>You obviously had enough time today to write 3 patronisingly **** posts on this topic. Maybe you
>need a time-management course, or need to learn how
to
>type faster. Then you could do all of that and still be able to ride to Chadstone. I really love
>"cyclists" like you who drive half-way across town to buy a part for their bike. Do you put your
>bike on the back of your car when you head down to Beach Rd on a Sunday morning as well?
what l choose to do with my time has nothing to do with you and l couldn't care what you do with
yours. but l cant see your list of travel plans for the next month l asked for, l would hate to
think you were making any unnecessary trips but you will be happy to learn that anywhere my bike
goes, my little legs push it(expect once a couple of years back l drove to mount Waverley first) now
as l said in another post that got a little screwed up and went to the wrong place l give up as you
so nicely pointed out this is a waste of my time and yours
 
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 17:00:22 +1000, "stu" <[email protected]> wrote:

>>Malvern East, Glen Iris, Southbank near Sturt St, Fishermans Bend, Newport... I could go on & on
>>about suburbs which are chopped in half.

>most of there roads were on the planing board for years railway lines do just as good a job of
>cutting suburbs in half

Railway lines are permeable, there are level crossings every few hundred metres, not that we have
many fenced lines in Melbourne to prevent you from crossing them anywhere you please..

Besides, railway lines are only busy twice every 15-40 minutes (when trains go past), or every 10
minutes if the PT lobby ever gets its way.. Freeways are busy, noisy and basically impassable except
at (often poorly located) bridges all the time..

PC
 
"stu" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> >You *HAVE* to go to Chadstone from Bayswater? Are you freakin' serious?
You
> >can't find some shops closer to you, rather than driving half-way across town in your smogmobile
> >so you can buy a new shirt or VCR? You are a
prime
> >example of the selfish attitude referred to above.
> oh so you now what to tell me when are where l can shop? list of your travels plans for the next
> month please and l will decide
which
> trips you can and cant make if you can if a place in bayswater that sells 7amp/hr 12V SLA
> batteries
for
> $21, l will shop there gladly. the best part is, its for the light on my bike and yes if l had
> more time today l would gladly have ridden there but
l
> don't so l couldn't

Well I would have gone to Jaycar, just up the road/rail line in Ringwood. By the time you've driven
to Chadstone you'd have destroyed any savings in the battery price. D'oh

Cheers Peter
 
I bet you are the twit who was interviewed on 3aw and would/could not give one straight answer. It
shows by the intelligence of your posts that you are of the one mindset. Face it you will not get
any respect by your deeds regardless of what you think or what others tell you.

PC wrote:
>
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 20:48:58 GMT, [email protected] (Jarkko Altonen) wrote:
>
> >Well said. I've been arguing a similar position for years
>
> And yet Critical Mass is still active in hundreds of cities worldwide.. Is it really worth
> your effort?
>
> PC

--
Look beyond the window, don't just focus on your own reflection. [email protected] for all spam.
 
On Sat, 28 Jun 2003 19:24:31 +1000, Smee <[email protected]> wrote:

>I bet you are the twit who was interviewed on 3aw and would/could not give one straight answer.

Nope, though one of the TV stations did ask me if I wanted to be interviewed that night, but I
declined..

PC
 
Jeremy Lunn <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

<snip>

> None the less I'd rather have a park with a creek running through it than a freeway. Quiet
> recrecreation/leisure places away from traffic are needed.

err the obvious answer to this one is to move to a rural or semi rural area...

You guys crack me up... keep going :)

I do have to agree with a lot of what Stu is saying even though I have an intense dislike for the
dominace of the car, PT in it's current incarceration will never be the answer. Problem is I have
no answers either, except IMO motorised scooters, motorbikes and bicycles do provide for part of
the answer

Trevor S
 
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