Ride well out into the lane where the cars go?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by John, Jun 29, 2003.

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  1. John

    John Guest

    What is the gist of "Effective Cycling" on this topic? I searched your FAQ for "cars" and "traffic"
    to no avail, and can't afford to buy the book right now.

    Do you right near the curb as long as there are no parked cars that could open a door on you? That's
    what I am afraid of.

    Still clicking around http://www.johnforester.com/

    Thank you for any advice or good thoughts. Everybody have a good summer.
     
    Tags:


  2. Alan

    Alan Guest

    You can find "Street Smarts" by John Allen at http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/ He covers lane
    positioning very well.

    --

    alan

    Anyone who believes in a liberal media has never read the "Daily Oklahoman."

    "John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > What is the gist of "Effective Cycling" on this topic? I searched your
    FAQ
    > for "cars" and "traffic" to no avail, and can't afford to buy the book
    right
    > now.
    >
    > Do you right near the curb as long as there are no parked cars that could open a door on you?
    > That's what I am afraid of.
    >
    > Still clicking around http://www.johnforester.com/
    >
    > Thank you for any advice or good thoughts. Everybody have a good summer.
    >
    >
     
  3. Alan Acock

    Alan Acock Guest

    The brochure is interesting. I think the simplest answer is that you usually want to ride about 18
    inches in, about where the right tire (U.S.) of the cars go. This way drivers don't try to pass you
    while staying in the lane and brush you off the road. Alan "alan" <[email protected]>
    wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > You can find "Street Smarts" by John Allen at http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/ He covers lane
    > positioning very
    well.
    >
    > --
    >
    > alan
    >
    > Anyone who believes in a liberal media has never read the "Daily
    Oklahoman."
    >
    >
    > "John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > What is the gist of "Effective Cycling" on this topic? I searched your
    > FAQ
    > > for "cars" and "traffic" to no avail, and can't afford to buy the book
    > right
    > > now.
    > >
    > > Do you right near the curb as long as there are no parked cars that
    could
    > > open a door on you? That's what I am afraid of.
    > >
    > > Still clicking around http://www.johnforester.com/
    > >
    > > Thank you for any advice or good thoughts. Everybody have a good
    summer.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >
    >
     
  4. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 00:09:54 GMT, "Alan Acock" <[email protected]> from AT&T Broadband wrote:

    >The brochure is interesting. I think the simplest answer is that you usually want to ride about 18
    >inches in, about where the right tire (U.S.) of the cars go. This way drivers don't try to pass you
    >while staying in the lane and brush you off the road.

    Ayup. And the little tire track area is the smoothest part of the road.

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace pigeon dropping reads the decayed and
    specific radios
    8:22:03 PM 29 June 2003
     
  5. Peter Cole

    Peter Cole Guest

    "Alan Acock" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > The brochure is interesting. I think the simplest answer is that you usually want to ride about 18
    > inches in, about where the right tire (U.S.) of the cars go. This way drivers don't try to pass
    > you while staying in the lane and brush you off the road.

    You can usually discern a "debris line" marking the farthest tire track. You don't want to ride
    outside this, since you'll be out of the tire-swept region and riding in debris. You don't need to
    ride more than a few inches to the inside of it though. If cars are passing too close for comfort, I
    keep moving my line left until they give me more room. If the lane is wide and well swept, I'll stay
    far from the right tire track, even over the fog line if the pavement is good and clean.
     
  6. > What is the gist of "Effective Cycling" on this topic? I searched your FAQ for "cars" and
    > "traffic" to no avail, and can't afford to buy the book right now.

    Why not borrow it from your local library. If they haven't got it on the shelves their
    reservation/inter-library loan services would proabably get it for you.

    Jeremy Parker
     
  7. R15757

    R15757 Guest

    "John" asked:

    << Do you right near the curb as long as there are no parked cars that could open a door on you?
    That's what I am afraid of. >>

    There is no principle to determine where to ride in a lane. It will change constantly based on a
    multitude of factors. Positioning is an art that is learned from experience rather than books.

    You are correct to fear doors. When there is a line of parked cars, ride about
    3.5 feet to the left of the doors, even if cars are coming up in your lane. Watch for heads, and
    wheels turned left. Most often, a 3.5-foot gap from the parked cars will still allow enough room
    for cars to pass easily on your left. Find a different route rather than ride on narrow streets
    with parked cars. Lines of parked cars are hazardous for many reasons other than doors.

    On clear streets, with little traffic behind and no parked cars, ride out in the lane, near the
    right tire depression. You will be more visible, have more space for evasive maneuvers, and the path
    will be clear of debris. The more speed you carry, the greater the need to be out in the lane. When
    a car comes up behind, please move over to share the lane rather than block passage.

    Many "vehicular" cyclists are apparently afraid of being passed closely by vehicles, and they stake
    a claim to the entire lane to prevent anyone from passing at all. IMO, this behavior is rarely
    necessary, and such riders could usually move over far enough to make lane-sharing possible, or,
    failing that, choose a different street to ride on. Unnecessary lane-taking by a few "effective
    cyclists" out there poisons the atmosphere and makes urban cycling more difficult for everybody. Not
    very effective if you ask me.

    If you, like some of the effective cycling crowd, are easily spooked by passing vehicles, this is a
    real bad sign. Best get used to it. Practice riding in a straight line until you can do it easily in
    tight quarters, and learn how to glance back without breaking your line. Handling skill will allow
    you to use more of the road safely. Don't even rule out the gutter if it is rideable. If you find
    yourself having to choose between the gutter on the one hand and blocking traffic on the other,
    choose a new route.

    Robert
     
  8. Pat

    Pat Guest

    x-no-archive:yes
    >
    > On clear streets, with little traffic behind and no parked cars, ride out
    in
    > the lane, near the right tire depression. You will be more visible, have
    more
    > space for evasive maneuvers, and the path will be clear of debris. The
    more
    > speed you carry, the greater the need to be out in the lane. When a car
    comes
    > up behind, please move over to share the lane rather than block passage.
    >
    > Many "vehicular" cyclists are apparently afraid of being passed closely by vehicles, and they
    > stake a claim to the entire lane to prevent anyone from passing at all. IMO, this behavior is
    > rarely necessary, and such riders
    could
    > usually move over far enough to make lane-sharing possible, or, failing
    that,
    > choose a different street to ride on. Unnecessary lane-taking by a few "effective cyclists" out
    > there poisons the atmosphere and makes urban
    cycling
    > more difficult for everybody. Not very effective if you ask me.
    >
    > If you, like some of the effective cycling crowd, are easily spooked by
    passing
    > vehicles, this is a real bad sign. Best get used to it. Practice riding in
    a
    > straight line until you can do it easily in tight quarters, and learn how
    to
    > glance back without breaking your line. Handling skill will allow you to
    use
    > more of the road safely. Don't even rule out the gutter if it is rideable.
    If
    > you find yourself having to choose between the gutter on the one hand and blocking traffic on the
    > other, choose a new route.
    >
    > Robert

    The entire tone of your response strikes me that you believe we cyclists are undeserving of using
    the roads and are only doing so under forebearance of the wisely tolerant automobile drivers who, if
    irritated or delayed in any way, might just take away our right to ride on the roads. Maybe you
    didn't mean that, but I detected a "cyclists need to be subservient-minded even if they have to put
    oneself at risk by riding in the gutter filled with debris because it is better to do that than
    causing an automobile driver any delay." I make no apology for riding my bike on the streets. I
    don't want drivers to pass me by so closely that the hairs on my arm lift up. And, drivers WILL
    squeeze by that close if I ride in the gutter.

    Pat in Texas
     
  9. In article <[email protected]>, R15757 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >If you, like some of the effective cycling crowd, are easily spooked by passing vehicles, this is a
    >real bad sign. Best get used to it. Practice riding in a straight line until you can do it easily
    >in tight quarters, and learn how to glance back without breaking your line.

    I'll second that, but...

    >If you find yourself having to choose between the gutter on the one hand and blocking traffic on
    >the other, choose a new route.

    There's a lot of ground betwen "blocking traffic" and riding in the gutter. In the situation
    involving a narrow street with on-street parking, for example, you can wait for break in the parked
    cars, pull over and wait for the people behind to pass, then pull out again. Doesn't cause any great
    delay to either you or them. A wider street would be better, other things being equal, but it'd be
    silly to go way out of your way just to avoid having to pull over every now and then.

    --Bruce F.
     
  10. Tanya Quinn

    Tanya Quinn Guest

    > You are correct to fear doors. When there is a line of parked cars, ride about
    > 3.5 feet to the left of the doors, even if cars are coming up in your lane. Watch for heads, and
    > wheels turned left. Most often, a 3.5-foot gap from the parked cars will still allow enough room
    > for cars to pass easily on your left. Find a different route rather than ride on narrow streets
    > with parked cars. Lines of parked cars are hazardous for many reasons other than doors.

    Any Toronto people reading this thread? The major east-west streets downtown are all too narrow to
    ride that far out from the parked cars unless you ride in the only traffic lane. The problem is
    compounded because these streets also have streetcar tracks (King, Queen, Dundas, College) so if you
    ride too far over you're also hitting the track. (and presumably the streetcar when you catch up
    with it ;)) I ride in the parking lane fairly close to the cars keeping an eye for cues someone is
    about to open a door and merging further left if traffic is clear. Any better ideas for avoiding
    dooring on these streets?

    Tanya
     
  11. Onewa

    Onewa Guest

    The one time I was doored, it was by a passenger leaping out the right side while the car was
    stopped at a light ("Never mind, I'll just hop out here - oops!!"). Hurt like hell.

    Keep your eyes open, ring your bell all the time, and don't pass stopped cars a too great a speed.

    /Onewa (in Toronto)

    "Tanya Quinn" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > > You are correct to fear doors. When there is a line of parked cars, ride
    about
    > > 3.5 feet to the left of the doors, even if cars are coming up in your
    lane.
    > > Watch for heads, and wheels turned left. Most often, a 3.5-foot gap from
    the
    > > parked cars will still allow enough room for cars to pass easily on your
    left.
    > > Find a different route rather than ride on narrow streets with parked
    cars.
    > > Lines of parked cars are hazardous for many reasons other than doors.
    >
    > Any Toronto people reading this thread? The major east-west streets downtown are all too narrow to
    > ride that far out from the parked cars unless you ride in the only traffic lane. The problem is
    > compounded because these streets also have streetcar tracks (King, Queen, Dundas, College) so if
    > you ride too far over you're also hitting the track. (and presumably the streetcar when you catch
    > up with it ;)) I ride in the parking lane fairly close to the cars keeping an eye for cues someone
    > is about to open a door and merging further left if traffic is clear. Any better ideas for
    > avoiding dooring on these streets?
    >
    > Tanya
     
  12. Bernie

    Bernie Guest

    Tanya Quinn wrote:

    > > You are correct to fear doors. When there is a line of parked cars, ride about
    > > 3.5 feet to the left of the doors, even if cars are coming up in your lane. Watch for heads, and
    > > wheels turned left. Most often, a 3.5-foot gap from the parked cars will still allow enough
    > > room for cars to pass easily on your left. Find a different route rather than ride on narrow
    > > streets with parked cars. Lines of parked cars are hazardous for many reasons other than
    > > doors.
    >
    > Any Toronto people reading this thread? The major east-west streets downtown are all too narrow to
    > ride that far out from the parked cars unless you ride in the only traffic lane. The problem is
    > compounded because these streets also have streetcar tracks (King, Queen, Dundas, College) so if
    > you ride too far over you're also hitting the track. (and presumably the streetcar when you catch
    > up with it ;)) I ride in the parking lane fairly close to the cars keeping an eye for cues someone
    > is about to open a door and merging further left if traffic is clear. Any better ideas for
    > avoiding dooring on these streets?
    >
    > Tanya

    Ride fast in the traffic zone and stay left of the door zone. There's too many wild cards over
    there. Drains, cars pulling out, doors, "surprize" pedestrians walking out... It's always exciting
    riding in downtown T.O. The other option is to avoid traffic and use quieter streets. I know that's
    not always so simple if going east/west in Toronto, and I'm not trying to be facetious. The plus
    side is the heavier the traffic, the better it is for the cyclist. You make better time than cars
    and it is easier to get around them. Take care out there! Bernie
     
  13. In article <2[email protected]>, R15757 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Bruce F. wrote,
    >
    >There's a lot of ground betwen "blocking traffic" and riding in the gutter. In the situation
    >involving a narrow street with on-street parking, for example, you can wait for break in the parked
    >cars, pull over and wait for the people behind to pass, then pull out again. Doesn't cause any
    >great delay to either you or them. A wider street would be better, other things being equal, but
    >it'd be silly to go way out of your way just to avoid having to pull over every now and then.
    >
    >Agree with Bruce here. Interestingly, John Forester and the rest of the so-called "vehicular"
    >cyclists do not. According to them, on such a street the cyclist must always hold a line to the
    >left of the door zone, even where there are gaps in the parked vehicles and loads of traffic
    >blocked behind. God forgot to hit these guys with the courtesy stick. You know who you are. Gray
    >beard. One orange pannier.

    I'd be interested to see if you could find a quote from John Forrester to support that. I don't have
    a copy of Effective Cycling with me, but I believe that he does recommend pulling over periodically
    as necessary to let faster-moving vehicles pass. John Allen, for example, says: "If you block
    traffic for more than a short time, common courtesy suggests, and the law normally requires, that
    you pull to the side and let the traffic by when you can safely do so."
    (http://www.bikexprt.com/streetsmarts/usa/chapter2a.htm)

    I have seen him and others recommend against "weaving" in and out when there are gaps between parked
    cars, by which I think they mean something different. When I talk "pulling over" into a gap betwen
    parked cars, I mean that you should 1) be prepared for the possibility that you may actually have to
    come to a stop before re-entering the lane, and 2) do a shoulder check and yield to approaching
    traffic as necessary before reentering the lane.

    This is common sense stuff; I'm sure we both agree on this. Nevertheless, one does sometimes see
    cyclists weaving in and out without doing these things, and I think that's what Forrester and others
    are trying to warn against. For example, from Allen again:

    "Don't weave in and out between parked cars. If you weave to the right after passing a parked car,
    it will hide you from drivers approaching from behind you. Then you have to pop back out into the
    path of overtaking traffic when you reach the next parked car. Put yourself in the place of a driver
    a couple of hundred feet behind you. Could this driver see you?

    "It's much safer to ride in a predictable, straight line, where everyone can see you. Motorists
    don't mind slowing down for a predictable, visible bicyclist nearly as much as they mind a bicyclist
    who swerves out in front of them."

    While it's not made explicit, it's clear that he recommends against "weaving" because of the
    unpredictable return to the lane (hence the phrases "swerves out in front", "pop back out",
    not because pulling over to the right and then (carefully) returning to the left is
    necessarily a bad idea.

    --Bruce Fields
     
  14. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "R15757" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > Agree with Bruce here. Interestingly, John Forester and the rest of the so-called "vehicular"
    > cyclists do not. According to them, on such a street
    the
    > cyclist must always hold a line to the left of the door zone, even where
    there
    > are gaps in the parked vehicles and loads of traffic blocked behind. God
    forgot
    > to hit these guys with the courtesy stick. You know who you are. Gray
    beard.
    > One orange pannier.

    I defy you to find a quote from Forester (or anyone else) stating that.

    Pete
     
  15. helen

    helen Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, R15757 <[email protected]> wrote:

    >
    > If you, like some of the effective cycling crowd, are easily spooked by passing vehicles, this is
    > a real bad sign. Best get used to it.

    When I started cycling I used to ride right next to the gutter whenever possible. In the first six
    months I was struck by a mirror (on the left) and run into a curb by a right turning car. After
    analyzing these two incidents I realized they would not have happened if I had been out in the lane.
    I will not compromise my safety for the sake of misguided public relations work. I ride where I feel
    safe. If the lane has enough width that cars can pass, great. If not they can move to the left and
    go around.

    In the five years since, I have never again had contact with or been forced to the ground by a car.
     
  16. In article <030720030949127352%[email protected]>, <[email protected]> wrote:
    >In article <[email protected]>, R15757 <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> If you, like some of the effective cycling crowd, are easily spooked by passing vehicles, this is
    >> a real bad sign. Best get used to it.
    >
    >When I started cycling I used to ride right next to the gutter whenever possible. In the first six
    >months I was struck by a mirror (on the left) and run into a curb by a right turning car. After
    >analyzing these two incidents I realized they would not have happened if I had been out in the
    >lane. I will not compromise my safety for the sake of misguided public relations work. I ride where
    >I feel safe. If the lane has enough width that cars can pass, great. If not they can move to the
    >left and go around.

    I agree, but would add an addendum (which I think is the kind of courtesy Robert is talking about),
    which is that I'm quite happy to just pull off the road completely for a moment to let people pass
    if need be. Or alternatively I'll temporarily slow down and ride much closer to the edge than I
    normally would--if I know the people behind me have seen me and slowed down, then I don't see much
    risk in letting them squeeze by.

    --Bruce Fields
     
  17. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (J. Bruce Fields) writes:
    >
    > There's a lot of ground betwen "blocking traffic" and riding in the gutter. In the situation
    > involving a narrow street with on-street parking, for example, you can wait for break in the
    > parked cars, pull over and wait for the people behind to pass, then pull out again.

    I frequently do that under those conditions. On such narrowed streets, I'm more concerned about
    oncoming than upcoming cars -- the pace of the traffic is so slow on those streets anyway, I'm not
    really delaying any cars behind me by much. One doesn't have to haul waay over to the curb and
    disappear from view. I just get in line with the driver's sides of the parked cars and stay visible.
    It's good practice for shoulder-checking while trackstanding, too.

    I don't feel hard done by in so doing. The car drivers do the same thing for each other. Otherwise,
    nobody would get anywhere.

    It doesn't always work, though -- a few times I've pulled over to let the guy behind me go, only to
    stop in the very spot they wanted to park in.

    FWIW, I've heard some hearsay that John Forester himself is more willing to share the lane than many
    others would be.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  18. Just Zis Guy

    Just Zis Guy Guest

    On 02 Jul 2003 08:41:58 GMT, [email protected] (R15757) wrote:

    >Find a different route rather than ride on narrow streets with parked cars. Lines of parked cars
    >are hazardous for many reasons other than doors.

    Or ride in the "primary riding position," roughly equivalent to the your position had you been
    driving a car.

    >When a car comes up behind, please move over to share the lane rather than block passage.

    Unless doing so erodes your safety margin, of course.

    >Many "vehicular" cyclists are apparently afraid of being passed closely by vehicles, and they stake
    >a claim to the entire lane to prevent anyone from passing at all.

    Many? Really? I ride a good distance out from the kerb so that I have safe space to go into if
    (when) someone passes too close. I'm not afraid of being passed because I've either managed the
    space so the car must overtake properly or not at all, or given myself manoeuvring room should they
    pass too close. Wariness is not the same as fear. I am wary of overtaking cars because drivers
    routinely overestimate their own skill, underestimate their speed, and concentrate on one thing at a
    time - so often they'll be watching me to the extent that when they look up they see a truck six
    feet in front of them coming the other way.

    Moving in to let them pass only makes it worse: if it's not safe to oevrtake when you're riding a
    sensible distance from the kerb (usually with your wheels in the middle of the nearside wheeltrack)
    then it's not safe to pass *period* and they shuld be waiting until weither it is safe to pass, or
    it is safe for you to pull in and let them pass.

    >If you find yourself having to choose between the gutter on the one hand and blocking traffic on
    >the other, choose a new route.

    Dude, we *are* traffic! We have as much right to be there as the cagers, whatever they think.
    Waiting for a safe place to pass a correctly positioned cyclist might mean they hit the next traffic
    light rolling instead of having the opportunity to wait for a few seconds, but it's my life on the
    line and I will take as much or as little of the lane as I consider appropriate.

    I am a courteous cyclist, but assertive with it.

    Guy
    ===
    ** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com Advance
    notice: ADSL service in process of transfer to a new ISP. Obviously there will be a week of downtime
    between the engineer removing the BT service and the same engineer connecting the same equipment on
    the same line in the same exchange and billing it to the new ISP.
     
  19. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "R15757" <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    > I agree with you, this is common sense stuff.
    >
    > But Forester would never advocate that the cyclist should pull over and
    stop to
    > let motorists pass on a narrow road. That, to him, would be a clear
    indication
    > of the "cyclist inferiority complex."

    Again...show a statement from him saying that.

    While I would never put words into Forester's mouth, lets take each of these seperately:

    > On wide roads, Forester advises cyclists to pull to the right, to
    facilitate
    > lane-sharing, "but no further than is safe..." (p. 176, Effective
    Cycling). He
    > clearly believes that moving into gaps between parked cars is "further
    than is
    > safe," and therefore cyclists shouldn't do it.

    Move right no further than is safe? What is wrong with that statement? Or do you believe that
    cyclists should always hug the last available 3" of paved surface?

    On a road where there are varying gaps in parked cars, it *is* quite dangerous to weave in and out.
    CArs coming up behind you have no idea when you will pull out next. Or they may not even see you,
    being hidden behind a tall car or SUV.

    Now....taking a gap to allow a couple of cars that are built up behind to pass is simple courtesy.
    Dodging off to the far right every time any car comes up behind you is merely silly. You *do*
    realize they can go around, right?

    >
    > In the process of complaining about the cyclist's legal obligation to move
    as
    > far to the right as practicable, he points to the parked car problem as
    one of
    > the reasons that this law is bad. "Because dodging into a traffic lane
    [after
    > moving into a gap between parked cars] is extremely dangerous, the cyclist
    is
    > required by the normal laws to yield the right-of-way to the cars that are behind, and to wait
    > until they have gone by." (p. 174) To Forester, this
    is a
    > horrible evil thing to be forced to do. In other words, never do what
    courteous
    > Bruce does when he pulls into the gap to let cars pass.

    The word 'practicable' does not = 'possible'.

    It appears what you would do is pull into each and every gap, and always wait until there is a
    space between cars big enough to get you to the next gap. We must *never* delay a motorist, at any
    time, must we?

    > In a section called "Parked Cars", Forester starts out by warning about
    the
    > Door Zone. Stay out of it he says. "So ride far enough away from a string
    of
    > parked cars to clear an open door." No complaints there. He goes on: "If
    there
    > are gaps in the string don't dodge out of the traffic lane between the cars...

    "Don't dodge" does not equal "do not let cars pass".

    > Make only one exception; if there's a solitary parked car ahead with big windows and low seat
    > backs, so you can positively see it's empty, then
    ride
    > close to it." (p. 178) One exception. Period. He says nothing about
    letting
    > cars pass when a gap is available..

    You also seem to forget that there is a whole other lane for the motorist to pass in. Yep...on the
    other side of the line. Motorists can and do make use of that.

    Nothing in any state law I've seen says you *must* share the lane by riding such that a motorist
    does not have to actually make a regular passing maneuver.

    > (I guess F. has never been doored by a guy who was leaning over in his
    seat and
    > opening the door at the same time. Perhaps his time will come.)

    So then I guess you advocate *never* riding in the door zone, no exceptions. Yoyu never
    know...someone may be leaning over, getting ready to open the door.

    > My problem with the Forester/Allen view of parked cars is that it's too dogmatic.

    It appears less dogmatic than yours.

    > They fail to recognize that sometimes it will be possible to ease into the gap to let cars pass,
    > and sometimes it wont. Not all movements
    around
    > parked cars are a "dodge" or a "weave." Riders can make subtle movements
    around
    > parked cars to facilitate traffic flow.

    And maybe they also realize that a cyclist 'in the gap' will be hidden by the parked car behind him.
    And also have his vision blocked by that same parked car.

    > Personally, I suspect that the "vehicular" cyclists' attachment to
    lane-taking
    > has more to do with psychology than safety. Talk about an inferiority
    complex.

    Personally, I suspect you're wrong.

    Pete
     
  20. >Personally, I suspect that the "vehicular" cyclists' attachment to lane-taking has more to do with
    >psychology than safety. Talk about an inferiority complex.

    >Robert

    Well, believe it or not in city traffic there's a lot more going on in the curb lane than suddenly
    opening doors or spaces between cars. Forester doesn't really address heavy urban traffic as such.

    But the basic principles are sound.

    Take my average commute, there are delivery vans stacked in the curb lane, commuting motorists
    trying to shoot into or out of parking garage entrances mid-block, pedestrians crossing
    mid-block, etc.

    It's not the static rule-based environment you might expect from a pure EC standpoint. But all the
    rules are there in EC, you just need to generalize them.

    EC alone is not going to make you a perfect or urban-safe cyclist, I never said it would. But it
    gives you a good start.

    The rest is up to you, don't kill the messenger, so to speak.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
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