Riders that Never were?

[Crank Yanker]

> Being UCI #1 is not an important achievement and is not considered much by the riders themselves.
> Just think that a perennial loser like Fr. Casagrande was nr. 1 for quite a number of weeks.

Cycling4all has posted an analysis in the past (unfortunately I can't find it now) that assigned
points for high placings to the important stage and single day races throughout history. Jalabert
ranks quite high, and I believe was the highest ranked active rider at the time of his retirement.
He just didn't win that many of the really big prominent races.

He also broke it down into one-day races and stage races. Not surprisingly, Museeuw was quite high
(6th maybe) for one-day races with Bartoli not far behind. I think if Bartoli wouldn't have been
plagued with injury for so many years now he probably would have passed Museeuw. Not surprisely
given Armstrong's sparse racing he didn't rank terribly high, even as a stage racer.

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > Jalabert?
> >
> > You've got to be kidding me.
>
> My point was that just about any rider could be help up as an example of
one
> who did not reach the heights expected of them. Jalabert was expected by some to win the Tour.

<snip>

Perhaps some Dumbasses expected that of him.

He was a sprinter, for god's sake.

 

[Robert Chung]

Crank Yanker wrote:
>
> Cycling4all has posted an analysis in the past (unfortunately I can't find it now)

You probably mean: http://www.cycling4all.com/a_cen02a.htm Note that this particular analysis has
not been updated through the 2003 year.

In addition, here is another page of rider rankings:
http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rankings/ranking_combined_overall.txt

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Davide Tosi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote:

> >"We don't have to regret anymore that Merckx has stopped. We have Vanderaerden now!" Of course he
> >disappointed. Van Hooydonck is another
case.
> >He sank back in anonimity because he refused to take EPO, being afraid to risk his health. I hope
> >we all agree that such a coward didn't deserve to win.
>
> I did mention Van Hooydonck, as far as the reasons for which he decided to not stay at top level,
> that's his own business.
>
> I don't agree about Vanderaerden. As opposite as all the other belgians mentioned in this thread
> he had a quite long and successfull career. His main problem had been that he always prefered
> quantity to quality. He won many races, but just very few of them had been really important ones.
> He should have been more focused on performing when it really counted, instead of wasting his
> energies to win local circuits.

That's one of the reasons Museeuw left VdB to go to Mapei - because VdB wanted him to win all the
kermesses too.

 

[Benjo Maso]

"Davide Tosi" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

>
> I don't agree about Vanderaerden. As opposite as all the other belgians mentioned in this thread
> he had a quite long and successfull career. His main problem had been that he always prefered
> quantity to quality. He won many races, but just very few of them had been really important ones.
> He should have been more focused on performing when it really counted, instead of wasting his
> energies to win local circuits.

Vanderaerden won Paris-Roubaix, Flandres, Gent-Wevelgem and Paris-Brussels, the green jersey and 5
stages in the Tour - all between he was 22 and 25. He continued his career till he was 33, but only
won second or third rate races (like stages in the three days of de Panne or the Star of Bessèges.
The last 4 years of his career he won almost nothing. IMO very disappointing for this highly
talented rider. He was hardly more succesfull than Fons de Wolf, winner of Milan-San Remo, the Tour
of Lombardy, Het Volk (twice), one stage in the Tour, 6 in the Vuelta and a few Italian
semi-classics (Toscane, Romagna, Sassari-Cagliari, Coppa Agostini). De Wolf's career was just as
long as Vanderaerden's: he stopped at 34 after his 12th season as a pro.

Benjo Maso

 

[Clovis Lark]

Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Nick Burns" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Kurgan Gringioni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> > Jalabert?
>> >
>> > You've got to be kidding me.
>>
>> My point was that just about any rider could be help up as an example of
> one
>> who did not reach the heights expected of them. Jalabert was expected by some to win the Tour.

> <snip>

> Perhaps some Dumbasses expected that of him.

> He was a sprinter, for god's sake.

Not after Armentierre...

 

[Jim Price]

Crank Yanker wrote:

> Not surprisely given Armstrong's sparse racing he didn't rank terribly high, even as a
> stage racer.

One of my points from a previous discussion on this NG was based around how great do you think
Armstrong really is given how much racing he's actually done. Perhaps he should be considered as a
candidate for a rider that never was as good as he should have been?

If you do find that link, I'd be very interested.

--
Jim Price

http://www.jimprice.dsl.pipex.com

Conscientious objection is hard work in an economic war.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, Jim Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> Crank Yanker wrote:
>
> > Not surprisely given Armstrong's sparse racing he didn't rank terribly high, even as a stage
> > racer.
>
> One of my points from a previous discussion on this NG was based around how great do you think
> Armstrong really is given how much racing he's actually done. Perhaps he should be considered as a
> candidate for a rider that never was as good as he should have been?
>
> If you do find that link, I'd be very interested.

The problem with such analyses is that it's not like Armstrong focuses all his energies on the
fairly prestigious Paris-Roubaix or the not-at-all prestigious Texas Cyclocross Championship. He
focuses his energies on the one race that every cyclist who has the ability and opportunity wants to
win: the Tour. And for five straight years, he has won it, despite competition from former winners
and champions of the other major tours.

"Not as good as he should have been" is an interesting argument. Unlike the other riders in this
discussion, Armstrong's post-cancer career has been a case of him achieving every major goal he has
set, and his major goal over that time was repeatedly winning the greatest bike race in the world.
His goals were magnificent, bested only by Merckx, and only because the Cannibal wasn't satisfied
with mere victory, but aimed always for devastation in every event. That's why he did extraordinary
things like win every possible Tour jersey in 1969, while Armstrong merely wins Yellow.

It's also fair to say that Armstrong has specialized in an era of specialists. I don't think riders
paid as much attention in Merckx' time to peaking for a particular race. Nowadays, there will be
lots of riders taking it relatively easy in the big tours (if they do them at all) because they want
to win the Worlds, or they're focussed on one of the other tours, or their real goal is the
classics. Armstrong doesn't display a killer instinct in, for example, the classics, because victory
there is not necessarily related to the seasonal goal.

History says that if Lance is very lucky, he might have one more Tour in him, but that he is likely
to fail as a Tour rider next year, or at best the year after (if he wins a sixth, he will be the
best TdF rider. If he wins a seventh, he will be a rider of unprecedented longevity in grand tours.
Six would be very impressive, seven looks nearly impossible to
me).

Post Tour, I suspect Lance will either directly retire (likely given his win-or-don't-bother
attitude), or take the usual route of a great racer and spend a year or two cleaning up the lesser
palmares: win a few races he's not previously won, take a shot at the hour record, maybe do some
track racing just for fun.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[DiabloScott]

Throwing out another couple names - good careers but much less than was expected: Romnger and Zulle.

 

[Andrew Price]

Fabrizio Mazzoleni - his results do not seem to square with his hubris.

best, Andrew

"But riding is my special gift, my chiefest, sole delight; Just ask a wild duck can it swim, a
wildcat can it fight... I'll ride this here two-wheeled concern, right straight away, at sight." A B
‘Banjo’ Patterson - "Mulga Bill" 25 July 1896.

 

[Nick Burns]

"Ken Papai" <[email protected]> wrote in message: Nothing as usual.

I did not expect *you* to get it.

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:14:59 -0700, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> Lance will [...] maybe do some track racing just for fun.

Our fun then.

 

[Nick Burns]

"Crank Yanker" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In the spirit of the "greatest crashers in cycling" thread, who were the "greatest" riders that
> never fulfilled the promise they showed early in their career?
>
> In recent years, Kloden and Vainstains come to mind.

Here are more:

Joel Pelier Luc Roosen Fabio Baldato Eugeni Berzin Abraham Olano Giorgio Furlan Pavel Tonkov Raul
Alcala Jose Maria Jimenez Andy Hampsten Roy Knickman

(OK, there are too many more but I am getting bored...the point is that most pros fail to meet the
lofty expectations of their fans)

 

[H Squared]

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
>

> There's an advantage to being an underdog: you've got something to prove and there's nothing
> to lose.
>
> Being the opposite (overdog?) has a lot to lose and little to gain: perform well and you're even,
> perform poorly and you've let down everyone who had expectations.

a friend once sent me a comment about an inline skater who has over 40 world championship medals. he
told me- "One reason he doesn't like skating now is that if he wins by too little a margin people
say he's doing poorly."

i could never stand up against those kind of expectations. this is one reason why i find LANCE
interesting to watch, because these kinds of things don't seem to get to him at all. h

 

[Joshua Zlotlow]

>Subject: Re: Riders that Never were? From: [email protected] (chris) Date: 8/24/03 3:32 PM
>Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>

>
>Jeff Evanshine.

I wouldn't count winning a junior world championship and not having a stellar career as worthy of
mention. I don't think a junior world championship really counts for much. Josh Zlotlow
[email protected] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

 

[Richard Adams]

h squared wrote: [snip]
>
> a friend once sent me a comment about an inline skater who has over 40 world championship medals.
> he told me- "One reason he doesn't like skating now is that if he wins by too little a margin
> people say he's doing poorly."
>
> i could never stand up against those kind of expectations. this is one reason why i find LANCE
> interesting to watch, because these kinds of things don't seem to get to him at all. h

I believe they do get to him. There were comments by his jauneness that he was not a pleasant person
to be around while things were going wrong during the tour.

A friend said that LA might not be in the SFt-MI (formerly GP). I hadn't seen that, but a local
member of the team he rides with indicated he may not start. I thought this was contractual
obligation, but heck, I don't suppose even Thom could force him if he doesn't feel like doing
it. Which presents the question, why such a long off-season? Speculation: mending fences at home.

 

[Nev Shea]

"benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:

> Another example is Erik Vanderaerden. I remember it was said on Belgian TV: "We don't have to
> regret anymore that Merckx has stopped. We have Vanderaerden now!" Of course he disappointed. Van
> Hooydonck is another case. He sank back in anonimity because he refused to take EPO, being afraid
> to risk his health. I hope we all agree that such a coward didn't deserve to win.

How about a story that isn't finished yet -- "Frankie Boy" VdB. Did Belgian TV claim he was the
"next" someone, and is he considered a failure, tragedy, or a comeback story now?

NS

 

[Bob Schwartz]

DiabloScott <[email protected]> wrote:
> Throwing out another couple names - good careers but much less than was expected: Romnger
> and Zulle.

Given the modest results he registered before hooking up with proper medical consultation one might
conclude that Rominger was a great overachiever.

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Richard Adams]

Nev Shea wrote:
> "benjo maso" <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
>
>
>>Another example is Erik Vanderaerden. I remember it was said on Belgian TV: "We don't have to
>>regret anymore that Merckx has stopped. We have Vanderaerden now!" Of course he disappointed. Van
>>Hooydonck is another case. He sank back in anonimity because he refused to take EPO, being afraid
>>to risk his health. I hope we all agree that such a coward didn't deserve to win.
>
>
>
> How about a story that isn't finished yet -- "Frankie Boy" VdB. Did Belgian TV claim he was the
> "next" someone, and is he considered a failure, tragedy, or a comeback story now?
>
> NS

And how about VdB's dog? To risk suspension to care for a pet, that's so heartwarming!

 

[Chris]

[email protected] (Crank Yanker) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> In the spirit of the "greatest crashers in cycling" thread, who were the "greatest" riders that
> never fulfilled the promise they showed early in their career?
>
> In recent years, Kloden and Vainstains come to mind.

Jeff Evanshine.