Riders who never lived up to the hype.

[wolfix]

Well, he snagged himself quite a pretty podium girl for a wife, so I guess she thinks he lives up to it.

Hincapie gave up his real chance at more podium finishes[one days] by riding for Discovery. But that's what you did when you rode for Discovery. You knew what it was all about when you signed on. You knew it was a dictatorship.
And dictatorships are the only way to run a Grand Tour team. History shows us that. Lance, Indurain, Hinault, and of course Eddy was complete dictatorships. They won the majority of TDF's over the past 35 years. The Ti-Raleigh team was the strongest team of it's period but TDF glory was pretty elusive because it had several contenders going into the TDF. It never closed the deal except with Zoop.
Look at QS this year..... We have Boonen [2005] and Bettini [2006] World Champions on the same team....... With pathetic results for both.

 

[El Loto]

The Tour isn't the be all and end all of every team's season. QS don't have a team that can win a GT but they're bloody good in one day races. Each to their own.

 

[Andrija]

cunego won a giro....how is that not living up to the hype? he had an incredible tour this year too.

Tour? This year? Try again.
And read El Loto's comment about hype...

 

[wolfix]

The Tour isn't the be all and end all of every team's season. QS don't have a team that can win a GT but they're bloody good in one day races. Each to their own.

I know QS does not target the GT's. But the fact they have Boonen and Bettini on the same team with few results from those two is indicitive of the trouble of having two leaders [sprinters] on the same team.

 

[Bro Deal]

I know QS does not target the GT's. But the fact they have Boonen and Bettini on the same team with few results from those two is indicitive of the trouble of having two leaders [sprinters] on the same team.

Yup, since 2003 when both joined QS we have a Gent-Wevelgem, a couple of TdF stages, the world road title, a couple more TdF stages, the Tour of Belgium, Paris-Roubaix, the Ronde, another Ronde, a couple more TdF stages, the TdF points jersey, four E3 Prijs-Vlaanderen wins, two UCI World Cup titles, another world road title, an Olympic gold medal, a Giro stage, another Giro stage, three Vuelta stage wins, Milan-Sanremo, two Giro di Lombardias, the Classica de San Sebastien, the HEW Cyclclassics. Those two should just hang up their cycling shoes and eat at McDonald's every meal. QS has completely destroyed their careers.

 

[wolfix]

Yup, since 2003 when both joined QS we have a Gent-Wevelgem, a couple of TdF stages, the world road title, a couple more TdF stages, the Tour of Belgium, Paris-Roubaix, the Ronde, another Ronde, a couple more TdF stages, the TdF points jersey, four E3 Prijs-Vlaanderen wins, two UCI World Cup titles, another world road title, an Olympic gold medal, a Giro stage, another Giro stage, three Vuelta stage wins, Milan-Sanremo, two Giro di Lombardias, the Classica de San Sebastien, the HEW Cyclclassics. Those two should just hang up their cycling shoes and eat at McDonald's every meal. QS has completely destroyed their careers.

My point is exactly right on....... Back in those years you mention they were not team leaders together.......Boonen was designated sprinter. .
This is the first year they shared the team....... tell em about their great results...... A Vuelta stage win and a green jersey ...... Pathetic results for two consectitive world champs..............
What you posted proved what I said was true. A dictatorship team gets far better results if they have one team leader.

 

[fscyclist]

Hincapie gave up his real chance at more podium finishes[one days] by riding for Discovery. But that's what you did when you rode for Discovery. You knew what it was all about when you signed on. You knew it was a dictatorship.

Hincapie had great physical talent and in my mind looked to be the best one day riders the US had produced. I'm not quite sure why this never materialized, but it wasn't because of physical inability. I think he lacks the mental ability to win. His crashes and last minute blunders are too numerous to write off to coincidence. He psyches himself out and seems to doubt his own abilities. I think Disco/USPS did plenty to support him, but he never came through in the final stretch.

 

[Bro Deal]

My point is exactly right on....... Back in those years you mention they were not team leaders together.......Boonen was designated sprinter. .
This is the first year they shared the team....... tell em about their great results...... A Vuelta stage win and a green jersey ...... Pathetic results for two consectitive world champs..............

Bogus. Just because this season has not been a great one for QS does not negate what they have done in the past. For all we know, they pulled their doping back a notch or two and that is why their results are sub-par compared to previous years. Looking at the two's results make it clear that each has races he wants to win and there is not a lot of overlap. Boonen was super strong during both Flanders and P-R this year; the dice just did not fall in his favor.

 

[wolfix]

Bogus. Just because this season has not been a great one for QS does not negate what they have done in the past.

Bogus????? Do you realize that you just made my point and that you are arging with yourself? QS had great results when they were a one man dictatorship........ Their results were weak when they had two team leaders........ Dope has nothing to do with it......

So what is bogus about what I said? My claim is that a dictorship team has better results when they have a top notch rider barring injury.....
QS has two top notch riders without the results the past year they they are capable of....... There were conflicting races between Boonen and Bettini. Plus they had to divide the team riders up between the two. Cipo never had to deal with that. His team was there to support him and only him in races he might win.......
An example is the 1970's/1980's Peter Post Ti-Raleigh , a far better team then QS is today that had a greater amount of top riders....... They won races, but could not win the TDF consistently even though they had the top 3 riders out of the top 5 riders in the sport riding for them. They were a powerhouse. Results were lackluster in the GT's. When the top riders left Ti-Raleigh they had great careers.

 

[Bro Deal]

Bogus????? Do you realize that you just made my point and that you are arging with yourself? QS had great results when they were a one man dictatorship........ Their results were weak when they had two team leaders........ Dope has nothing to do with it......

So what is bogus about what I said?

You are trying to derive a trend from a single data point in a sport where luck is a huge component of winning. It is bogus. If you could point to several years of similar results then you would have a point, but you cannot because QS has long had butt kicking one day results.

How do you know doping has nothing to do with this year? There is clearly a trend amongst some teams to become cleaner while other teams are going full speed ahead with the same doping that has worked for them in the past. Did Caisse have subpar TdF results because they had too many leaders or because they did not want to risk smuggling blood into France?

Note that the team that you worship, Disco, has adopted a shotgun approach to leading their team. They just throw two to four leaders in the front and hope for the best. Yet the Disco fanboys are convinced Bruyneel is a genius.

 

[wolfix]

You are trying to derive a trend from a single data point in a sport where luck is a huge component of winning. It is bogus. If you could point to several years of similar results then you would have a point, but you cannot because QS has long had butt kicking one day results.

My point proven ......... History shows the greatest teams were teams of dictatorships, not the shotgun approach. Tell me one team that had several team leaders or dominant sprinters teams that had several team sprinters that can be considered great teams.......
The greatest GT teams over the past 30 years are Moltini, Discovery, and Banesto. No one approached their level of GT wins. Hinault and Lemond won on several different teams.

How do you know doping has nothing to do with this year?

You have no knowledge of any doping done by amy team except what is printed in the press....... You don't have a clue, and no one on this board does either.

Note that the team that you worship, Disco, has adopted a shotgun approach to leading their team. They just throw two to four leaders in the front and hope for the best. Yet the Disco fanboys are convinced Bruyneel is a genius.

The Discovery teanm did not start out with a shotgun approach...... Contador was a pleasant surprise. But if they stayed together I am willing to bet that they would have had a dominant team leader going into the 2008 TDF. This year they were forced to approach the TDF with what they had. They started out the year with everything pointed to everyone working for Basso....... So Discovery was forced at the last minute to change up. So again I am right. Disco started the year wanting a single rider and everyone was to ride for him........ Nothing has changed there. That is the brilliance of Bruyneel........ He can win with his second string team. He has won 7 out of the last 8 TDF's...... Brilliance is a word that is applied to that type of record.

Prove me wrong with the idea that I presented that consistently winning teams win with just one team leader entering races...... Either a sprinter or a GT rider......Not just one race wonders.......
Give me some team names over the past 30 years that have acheived greatness with a shotgun approach............

 

[El Loto]

A green jersey is really ****. I'd rather have no legs than get an opportunity to win that, totally agree with you.

Some years riders will win win win, then some years they'll be up there but not quite get the wins.

 

[wolfix]

A green jersey is really ****. I'd rather have no legs than get an opportunity to win that, totally agree with you.

Some years riders will win win win, then some years they'll be up there but not quite get the wins.

A green jersey is a prize.......But looking at Bettini's and Boonens records this year it was not good for riders of their abilities.. One rider may have a bad year, but when two riders on the same team have slow years, then there is something going on.........

 

[Leafer]

Nothing has changed there. That is the brilliance of Bruyneel........ He can win with his second string team. He has won 7 out of the last 8 TDF's...... Brilliance is a word that is applied to that type of record.

Bruyneel's brilliance lies in the fact that he knows that dopers win and that non-dopers don't. Look at his track record of GT riders: Armstrong, Landis, Heras, Basso, now Contador and Leiphiemer. With the exception of Levi, all are known dopers (Heras, Landis, Basso), linked to doping (Contador), or highly suspect (Armstrong). In fact, Bruyneel's never had a GT rider who wasn't suspected of doping, again with the possible exception of Leiphiemer.

Bruyneel's brilliance lay in the fact that he knew what had to be done to win and in having the balls to do it.

 

[wolfix]

Bruyneel's brilliance lies in the fact that he knows that dopers win and that non-dopers don't. Look at his track record of GT riders: Armstrong, Landis, Heras, Basso, now Contador and Leiphiemer. With the exception of Levi, all are known dopers (Heras, Landis, Basso), linked to doping (Contador), or highly suspect (Armstrong). In fact, Bruyneel's never had a GT rider who wasn't suspected of doping, again with the possible exception of Leiphiemer.

Bruyneel's brilliance lay in the fact that he knew what had to be done to win and in having the balls to do it.

Your post was written to be misleading or you have not been following cycling the past 10 years. The only thing you know for sure is the riders who have tested positive or admitted to it. Other then that, you are just masturbating to what you think you know.

Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership.

The facts are this....... He has dominated the GT's with riders who never tested positive under his leadership.
He is Mr DS TDF....... 8 wins in 9 years.
And he has a rider placed today to challenge the Vuelta.
I would say that borders on brilliance.

 

[thoughtforfood]

Your post was written to be misleading or you have not been following cycling the past 10 years. The only thing you know for sure is the riders who have tested positive or admitted to it. Other then that, you are just masturbating to what you think you know.

Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership.

The facts are this....... He has dominated the GT's with riders who never tested positive under his leadership.
He is Mr DS TDF....... 8 wins in 9 years.
And he has a rider placed today to challenge the Vuelta.
I would say that borders on brilliance.

However, while in the US the Tour de France is the only race people know, in what we call "the rest of the world," there is a tradition to many races few here can even pronounce. In those races, QS shows themselves to consistently be a threat for the win, and in many cases, they do win. This year has not been as stelar, but as a team, they far surpass DC.

Many in the US have a tendency to claim that an organization that has a star athlete, is also a great "team." QS, and their previous incarnation Mapei are great teams, and no team with a "dictator" will ever match their overall achievement.

I am with Bro on this one, the numerous wins they have were clearly a sign that they concentrated on a different racing program, and in that were just as successful as DC. Just because they did not concentrate all of their attention of overall GT's does not mean that in their area of concentration, they were less successful. I would submit they were just as successful, if not more so.

DS also has a pretty bad history of producing riders who once they left the team, showed where their real talent originated in the first place, and that is doping.

 

[Hein-Verbruggen]

Another false LAF claim/myth:

Armstrong flunked his very first urine test in July 1999 whist leading GC.

Roberto Heras also was DQed for EPO, a Bruyneel alum
Landis, same story
Hamilton, same story
Ferrari, same story

Plenty of worker bees were busted too: Joachim, Beltran, Padrnos, Andreu

Your post was written to be misleading or you have not been following cycling the past 10 years. The only thing you know for sure is the riders who have tested positive or admitted to it. Other then that, you are just masturbating to what you think you know.

Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership.

The facts are this....... He has dominated the GT's with riders who never tested positive under his leadership.
He is Mr DS TDF....... 8 wins in 9 years.
And he has a rider placed today to challenge the Vuelta.
I would say that borders on brilliance.

 

[Leafer]

Your post was written to be misleading or you have not been following cycling the past 10 years. The only thing you know for sure is the riders who have tested positive or admitted to it. Other then that, you are just masturbating to what you think you know.

Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership.

The facts are this....... He has dominated the GT's with riders who never tested positive under his leadership.
He is Mr DS TDF....... 8 wins in 9 years.
And he has a rider placed today to challenge the Vuelta.
I would say that borders on brilliance.

"Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership". That's the weakest argument I've ever heard. You do realize how utterly meaningless that is, don't you? Godefroot never had a team leader test positive while with T-Mob either, even though we now know that both Riis and Ullrich were doping. At CSC, Riis never had a team leader test positive, though we know Basso was doping. Dominic Roussel and Manolo Saiz never had team leaders test positive either, now did they? But we know the whole damn Festina and LS teams were doping.

I know there are a lot of fans out there who'd rather lie and die than admit that there was something fishy going on at USPS/Disco all those years, but I don't think I've ever encountered someone who is so willing to blindly swallow the Bruyneel/Armstrong propaganda. I assume you have your own brain - why not use it to follow the crumbs instead of toeing the party line? Is it because you know where the trail leads and just don't want to go there?

 

[JohnO]

There was something fishy with all the teams back then. I don't hold any illusions about Postal/Disco, but I don't think they were any worse than any of the other top level pro teams of the time. They didn't hold the moral high ground, but they did hold the flawless execution high ground. Didn't crash, didn't have mechanical failures, didn't get caught doping.

In one respect, Postal/DC did not live up to the traditions of cycling, by focusing mostly on the TDF, while using a few classics as training, and halfhearted efforts at the other GT's. Had the other teams been able to focus exclusively on the TDF, LA probably wouldn't have seven wins. Had Postal/Disco ridden a full schedule with it's best, the same would also hold true.

"Bruyneel has never had a leader test positive while under his leadership". That's the weakest argument I've ever heard. You do realize how utterly meaningless that is, don't you? Godefroot never had a team leader test positive while with T-Mob either, even though we now know that both Riis and Ullrich were doping. At CSC, Riis never had a team leader test positive, though we know Basso was doping. Dominic Roussel and Manolo Saiz never had team leaders test positive either, now did they? But we know the whole damn Festina and LS teams were doping.

I know there are a lot of fans out there who'd rather lie and die than admit that there was something fishy going on at USPS/Disco all those years, but I don't think I've ever encountered someone who is so willing to blindly swallow the Bruyneel/Armstrong propaganda. I assume you have your own brain - why not use it to follow the crumbs instead of toeing the party line? Is it because you know where the trail leads and just don't want to go there?

 

[snood]

There was something fishy with all the teams back then. I don't hold any illusions about Postal/Disco, but I don't think they were any worse than any of the other top level pro teams of the time. They didn't hold the moral high ground, but they did hold the flawless execution high ground. Didn't crash, didn't have mechanical failures, didn't get caught doping.

In one respect, Postal/DC did not live up to the traditions of cycling, by focusing mostly on the TDF, while using a few classics as training, and halfhearted efforts at the other GT's. Had the other teams been able to focus exclusively on the TDF, LA probably wouldn't have seven wins. Had Postal/Disco ridden a full schedule with it's best, the same would also hold true.

Wrong. Heras and Savodelli won GTs. Hamilton won the Dauphine. Hincapie was serious about Paris Roubaix and Flanders. He won Ghent Wevelgem and KBK. Armstrong was obsessed with Amstel Gold.