"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments



[email protected] wrote:
> There is certainly a great degree of social mobility [in Europe],
> but not on the scale found in the US.


This does not appear to be supported by the data. There are many ways to
measure social or economic mobility (short-term, long-term, perdurance,
group transition probabilities, and so on), but by most of them the US
ranks either near the middle or below the middle compared to European
countries.
 
"Bob Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>>This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
>>Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
>>ability
>>if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
>>simply by talking to any factory worker.

>
> Bollocks, Tom (as usual).
>
> Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings.
>
> The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made".


It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President.
He is nothing but a son of an immigrant ....
Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France (in the
Show Business for example) :

Jean-Paul Belmondo (Italian fathers)
Isabelle Adjani (algérian father, german mother)
Coluche (Italian fathers)
Julien Clerc (Mother from the French antilles)
Serge Gainsbourg (russian parents)
Yves Montand (Italian fathers)
Daniel Prévost (algérian khabyle father)
Louis de Funès (Spanish parents)
Barbara (Central Europe)
Charles Aznavour (arménian)
Marina Vlady (Russia)
Lino Ventura (italien)
Sylvie Vartan (arménian and bulgary)
Georges Moustaki (grec, born in égypte)
Serge Reggiani (italiens fathers)

Etc Etc.

What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ?
Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a
problem in France.
 
"Bob Martin" <[email protected]> a écrit dans le message de news:
[email protected]...
> in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>>This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
>>Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
>>ability
>>if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
>>simply by talking to any factory worker.

>
> Bollocks, Tom (as usual).
>
> Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings.
>
> The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made".


It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President.
He is nothing but a son of an immigrant ....
Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France (in the
Show Business for example) :

Jean-Paul Belmondo (Italian fathers)
Isabelle Adjani (algérian father, german mother)
Coluche (Italian fathers)
Julien Clerc (Mother from the French antilles)
Serge Gainsbourg (russian parents)
Yves Montand (Italian fathers)
Daniel Prévost (algérian khabyle father)
Louis de Funès (Spanish parents)
Barbara (Central Europe)
Charles Aznavour (arménian)
Marina Vlady (Russia)
Lino Ventura (italien)
Sylvie Vartan (arménian and bulgary)
Georges Moustaki (grec, born in égypte)
Serge Reggiani (italiens fathers)

Etc Etc.

What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ?
Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a
problem in France.
 
in message <[email protected]>, steve
('[email protected]') wrote:

> Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the
> US is famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that
> class immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially
> after the
> two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
> disagrees..and he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me
> (a "dumbass", no doubt).
>
> What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
> pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?


It depends what you mean by social mobility, but no, in Europe (like the
US) there is little real class mobility. Old money is old money the
world over, and people with old money stick together. They went to
the 'right' schools and the 'right' universities, have the 'right'
contacts and relations, marry the 'right' people.

In Europe this universal truth is slightly gilded by titles which the
powerful have, over the centuries, given themselves, but it doesn't
really make any difference. You ain't goin' to marry a Rockefeller, and
if you go to court against a Rockefeller, you're going to lose. The fact
that he doesn't call himself 'Lord Rockefeller' is immaterial.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...
 
in message <[email protected]>,
[email protected] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth
> than by income:
>

http://www.economist.com/world/britain/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7289005

My partner still defiantly insists she's working class. By any normal
definition of working class, she definitely isn't now, although she was
admittedly born into a classic 'working class' family. By contrast, my
father was a 'mandarin' - one of Britain's top civil servants, so I was
definitely born near the top of middle class.

But wait for it...

My father's father was a sharecropper who went bust in Texas in the
1890s, and ended up scraping a living farming a mosquito-infested swamp
close to the Saskatchewan/North Dakota border. My father's mother left
him there and returned to England where she made a very marginal living
as a washerwoman. My father, however, did well at grammar school, and
got a public scholarship to Cambridge University which was sufficiently
generous that it paid for a servant (no, really; I think the servant may
have worked for three of four undergraduates, not just my father, but
still).

Having got a double first from Cambridge, after service in the army
during the war he then sat the Civil Service exam and, passing that,
immediately went into the upper reaches of the civil service where he
spent the rest of his career.

The membrane between the middle and the working classes always has been
extremely permeable, in both directions, at least in Britain. Many
British institutions, but particularly the civil service (and, in the
old days, the imperial service) have always been highly meritocratic.

The barrier between the aristocracy and the rest, however, is different.
To get into the aristocracy, you father and grandfather have to have
been extremely rich and powerful. Getting out of the aristocracy is even
more difficult, since just going broke isn't normally sufficient -
you've still got the extended family and contacts which drag you back to
privilege.

Me? I'm a working sorceror. I study occult learning in weighty grimoires,
and by arcane spells and incantations conjure powerful daemons at vast
distance to do my will (don't you?). What does this make me? I am,
essentially, an artisan. I'm an artisan in a trade which is currently
highly valued, and consequently I earn somewhat more than a mason or a
joiner, but... essentially, I make things.

Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone
(apart from my partner) really care any more?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
Ring of great evil
Small one casts it into flame
Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron
 
>
> What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ?
> Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a
> problem in France.


France shortened all their upper class many years ago. Now their issues are
not determined by birth, but by the real deal.
 
>
> Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone
> (apart from my partner) really care any more?
>
> --
> [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
> Ring of great evil
> Small one casts it into flame
> Bringing rise of Men ;; gonzoron



Probably means that you family income allows you to do stuff that you would
otherwise starve doing.
Do you camp out at Glastonbury, or stay at a B & B?
 
"mal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >
>> What is a French if not a mix of poor immigrants ?
>> Btw : I am one of them and I don't remember my Brazilian origin to be a
>> problem in France.

>
> France shortened all their upper class many years ago. Now their issues
> are not determined by birth, but by the real deal.


Clear as a picture.
 
[email protected] wrote
> And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
> restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.


Something the people with a masters in 14th
Century Eastern European Library Systems who work
at THAT person's pizza place will never grasp.


--
Scott Johnson / johnson dot sa at comcast dot net
 
On 16-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Gabe Brovedani <[email protected]>
blindly formulated
the following incoherence:

> Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The
> recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others:
>
> http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html


A distinction should be made between the ability and opportunity for one to
ascend socially/economically and the actual practice of doing so. If one is
content to suck the public teat, make no effort, and gain no ground...well
that is certainly a failure of govt policy and personal initiative, but not
necessarily one of economic and class structure. The CSM article doesnt
draw this distinction.

I cant say how Europe compares to the US (other than to repeat some opinions
I've heard from the Europeans Ive talked to on the subject...all agreeing
that the US offers more opportunity) but it is clear (to anyone with eyes)
that virtually anyone who is willing to work hard can get ahead here in the
US. Perhaps unfortunately, even those who are unwilling to work can do
quite well, and that, I believe, is a big reason why so many do not work to
get ahead. That is not to say that there arent unfortunates who are worthy
of charitable assistance, but that the institutionalization of assistance
has created a perverse economic disincentive for a large underclass. It's
shameful.

steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce
 
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Revtom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
>>> mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
>>> don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
>>> of the US.

>>
>> See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.
>>
>> Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
>> income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low -
>> Miami - are $35K/year.
>>
>> What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income
>> earners.
>>
>> Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on
>> welfare?
>>
>> This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
>> Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
>> ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can
>> discover simply by talking to any factory worker.
>>
>> Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand.

>
> Read and learn. http://www.classism.org/index.php


I suggest you shut you pie hole idiot. I came from the bottom of the class
system to rise to upper middle class. All along the way I met people who had
started at the bottom and become rich and in some cases famous. And all
along the way I watch people who started at the top with silver spoons in
their mouths become homeless dope addicts sleeping in doorways in Berkeley
and San Francisco.

You rose FAR above you ability and decry the fact that people finally
noticed.
 
<Montesquiou> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President.
> He is nothing but a son of an immigrant ....


He is nothing? Hmm, hasn't that already proven my point?
 
"Scott Johnson" <johnson.sa@TIBASICREADY!comcast.net> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote
>> And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
>> restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.

>
> Something the people with a masters in 14th Century Eastern European
> Library Systems who work at THAT person's pizza place will never grasp.


My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a nice
house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I want. I own my
own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such and a good deal of
money in the bank.

Let's compare that to a woman I met in Paris - she works in an office, every
single cent she makes is earmarked. Her rent, her food (bought out because
her apartment doesn't have a kitchen nor any such facilities) her
transportation (good thing that the Paris subway system is one of the best
anywhere). Her total savings didn't amount of a single year's income.

Virtually every shop keeper in Paris I talked to had the same story. On the
other hand a bicycle shop owner in the USA in town nearby owns a house on
the hill with a view of San Francisco bay and the surrounding cities. His
house alone is worth more than a million dollars. He has an older car - a
collectors item really - that is in perfect condition. Several other
vehicles as well.
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Scott Johnson" <johnson.sa@TIBASICREADY!comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote
>>> And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
>>> restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.

>>
>> Something the people with a masters in 14th Century Eastern European
>> Library Systems who work at THAT person's pizza place will never grasp.

>
> My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a nice
> house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I want. I own
> my own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such and a good
> deal of money in the bank.


Ya got a nice woman living with you?

>
> Let's compare that to a woman I met in Paris - she works in an office,
> every single cent she makes is earmarked. Her rent, her food (bought out
> because her apartment doesn't have a kitchen nor any such facilities) her
> transportation (good thing that the Paris subway system is one of the best
> anywhere). Her total savings didn't amount of a single year's income.


She's in Paris, asshole. Did you ask her to come live with you in your nice
house in your nice neighborhood?

>
> Virtually every shop keeper in Paris I talked to had the same story. On
> the other hand a bicycle shop owner in the USA in town nearby owns a house
> on the hill with a view of San Francisco bay and the surrounding cities.
> His house alone is worth more than a million dollars. He has an older
> car - a collectors item really - that is in perfect condition. Several
> other vehicles as well.


Is he happy?
 
in 523553 20060817 151817 "Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>"Scott Johnson" <johnson.sa@TIBASICREADY!comcast.net> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote
>>> And you don't have to win lotto to become rich. Running a good pizza
>>> restaurant or plumbing company can do the trick.

>>
>> Something the people with a masters in 14th Century Eastern European
>> Library Systems who work at THAT person's pizza place will never grasp.

>
>My great grandmother starved to death in Europe and today I live in a nice
>house that I own in a nice neighborhood and have everything I want. I own my
>own car, have no bills outside of the utilities and such and a good deal of
>money in the bank.
>
>Let's compare that to a woman I met in Paris - she works in an office, every
>single cent she makes is earmarked. Her rent, her food (bought out because
>her apartment doesn't have a kitchen nor any such facilities) her
>transportation (good thing that the Paris subway system is one of the best
>anywhere). Her total savings didn't amount of a single year's income.
>
>Virtually every shop keeper in Paris I talked to had the same story. On the
>other hand a bicycle shop owner in the USA in town nearby owns a house on
>the hill with a view of San Francisco bay and the surrounding cities. His
>house alone is worth more than a million dollars. He has an older car - a
>collectors item really - that is in perfect condition. Several other
>vehicles as well.


To compare a wealthy man in one country with a struggling person in another
country is completely pointless. Should we now compare you with Alan Sugar
or a hundred other self-made men in Europe who pulled themselves up from
nothing?
Incidentally, I lived in the USA for a year and I saw poverty the like of which I have
never seen in Europe.
 
steve wrote:
> On 16-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Gabe Brovedani <[email protected]>
> blindly formulated
> the following incoherence:


hey, that's insulting
>
>>Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The
>>recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others:
>>
>>http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html

>
>
> A distinction should be made between the ability and opportunity for one to
> ascend socially/economically and the actual practice of doing so. If one is
> content to suck the public teat, make no effort, and gain no ground...well
> that is certainly a failure of govt policy and personal initiative, but not
> necessarily one of economic and class structure. The CSM article doesnt
> draw this distinction.


Hey, I agree, which is why you should have read the last linked article
which made your very point, among others. Who's an incoherently blind
formula now?

Gabe Brovedani
 
"Tom Kunich" <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Revtom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
> Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
> ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can
> discover simply by talking to any factory worker.


Or you simply tell us how much you know about Europe by telling us where we
can get those phonak cell phones? And how many people get tested during a
Tour stage? Your spreading of nonsense is quite remarkable, but what's even
more remarkable that you seem to believe it. I mean even things like so
easily verified as how many they test. Why do you insist making stuff up
when every one else knows it's nonsense?
 
On 17-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Gabe Brovedani <[email protected]>
blindly formulated
the following incoherence:

> > On 16-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Gabe Brovedani
> > <[email protected]>
> > blindly formulated
> > the following incoherence:

>
> hey, that's insulting


Dont be insulted. I have my browser set up to generate that message for
everyone. Think of it as a longer, more creative way of saying "dumbass".

> > A distinction should be made between the ability and opportunity for one
> > to
> > ascend socially/economically and the actual practice of doing so. If
> > one is
> > content to suck the public teat, make no effort, and gain no
> > ground...well
> > that is certainly a failure of govt policy and personal initiative, but
> > not
> > necessarily one of economic and class structure. The CSM article doesnt
> > draw this distinction.

>
> Hey, I agree, which is why you should have read the last linked article
> which made your very point, among others. Who's an incoherently blind
> formula now?


A decent article with reasonable conclusions.

steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce
 
On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:24:17 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Incidentally, I lived in the USA for a year and I saw poverty the like of which I have
>never seen in Europe.


Very possibly true, but people often don't see what is in front of
them. When international news reported the fire in the Paris tenement
last year or the year before, we had people deny that the tenement
existed or that any minority was living in the manner described. Their
proof was that they lived in Paris and knew it wasn't true.

Guess the photos were done by the same people that did the faked lunar
landings.

In the end, what is wrong somewhere else doesn't really explain away
anything wrong where you can make a difference. Bragging on the best
relative poverty is about as silly an approach as I can imagine.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...
 
Curtis L. Russell wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:24:17 GMT, Bob Martin <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Incidentally, I lived in the USA for a year and I saw poverty the like
>> of which I have never seen in Europe.

>
> Very possibly true, but people often don't see what is in front of
> them. When international news reported the fire in the Paris tenement
> last year or the year before, we had people deny that the tenement
> existed or that any minority was living in the manner described. Their
> proof was that they lived in Paris and knew it wasn't true.


I don't remember the discussion that way at all. What I remember is that
you, who had never seen the building in question, asserted that you knew
that the residents were miserable and could even compare their quality of
life to those in Southeast DC. I don't remember anyone in that thread
denying that the tenement existed.