"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments



M

Mark Fennell

Guest
bjw wrote:
> The Census also hires people to go around and follow
> up, and to do in-depth interviews with a smaller sample
> of people. <snip>


That, btw, is a pretty interesting summer job. As an "enumerator", you have
to follow up with households that didn't turn in their forms. You get to
visit all kinds of interesting neighborhoods and interview nice folks, many
of whom don't particularly want to share information and/or can't speak
English very well. But, you get to do it on your schedule and you get paid
piecework--by the form.
 
H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Jack Hollis <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 19:49:14 -0700, Howard Kveck
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Whatever Spanish blood exists in Mexico and Central America has, for
> >> the most part, has been well diluted with the native population. An
> >> interesting dynamic in these countries is that having more Spanish
> >> blood gives you higher status.

> >
> > Even more simply put: if you're lighter in colour, you're considered to
> > have higher status.

>
>
> It's not specifically lighter in color, because the natives of Mexico
> and CA were not that much different from the Spanish in skin color But
> the Aztecs and Mayans (and a few other native groups) did not look
> European. It is estimated that about 10% of Mexicans have no native
> blood.
>
> Take a look at Mexico's President Fox. I doubt that he has much
> native blood and he would look quite at home in Spain. Then look at
> the President Chavez of Venezuela. You can see he has a lot of native
> blood.
>
> The skin color measure is more important in places like Brazil where
> there were significant number of slaves brought from Africa. There
> you have a complex mix of Native American, Portuguese and African.


I should clarify my statement a little: it was a description of what is a
perception that I arrived at from my dealing with the hispanic culture in the
neighborhood around where I work and from my time in school (long time ago,
admittedly), plus that of my mom, who worked in schools in several more heavily
latino areas. All this is Northern California, by the way.

I do tend to agree with your European versus "native" appearance concept, Jack.
But I think colouring does play a part in that. If you haven't already, spend some
time watching the hispanic TV shows - the people on them do tend to be more Euro in
appearance (broad generalization), but they also seem to be much more heavily skewed
toward lighter colouring.

--
tanx,
Howard

Never take a tenant with a monkey.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
Michael Press wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > everyone would rather be in the ruling class.

>
> I wouldn't.


Me neither...

I also wouldn't want to be a member of the "slave" class... ie the
hardworking 60+hrs/wk no vacation retire and die of a heart attack
class.

The persons who claim that it "pays" to not work in the US are truely
clueless. I lived with homeless people in California for a few months,
and all they were getting was food stamps... and that ain't much. It is
better if you are a single mother, but that is temporary "help" now
too. Rising up the scale we have jobs starting at $5.25 per hour with
no benefits at all and no security. You'd probably be amazed at how
many jobs there are in that category (and more all the time)... that's
why Bush keeps saying we can't increase the minimum because it would
cause inflation.

It seems that the meer *possiblity* that a person can rise from minimum
wage to being CEO is supposed to cover for the fact that 99.999% of
them don't... and the majority stay right where they are... or get
layed off.

In the US it is universally accepted that the only game in town is
"getting ahead" and if you aren't playing, then there is something
seriously wrong with you. Of course the great majority of "players"
lose... but the illusion persists. That's why the US far exceeds the
industrialized world in hours worked... yet lags in per hour
productivity... and our living standard has been steadily declining for
30 years.
 
T

Tom Kunich

Guest
"Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "Jack Hollis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> On 20 Aug 2006 15:37:38 -0700, "Bill C" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Jack that adds in the one thought I didn't include which is that
>>>success is measured in generations and the cornerstone is education.

>>
>> That's the way it was/is for many immigrants who come to the US. You
>> work hard so your kids have a better life than you had.
>>
>> My brother-in-law is the son of Italian immigrants. His father worked
>> in the produce business, first as a retailer and then as a wholesaler.
>> He worked hard, did very well for himself and sent all his kids to
>> college. I remember him telling me once that he didn't want his kids
>> to have to get up at 3 AM and drive a truck to the produce market to
>> buy vegetables and fruit like he did for most of his life.
>>
>> Forty years ago, the produce business in NYC was mostly Italians. But
>> their kids didn't take over for them. Now the produce business in NYC
>> is mostly Koreans and their kids wont take over for them either.

>
>
> Why should they? Isn't that one reason why their parents sent them to
> college?


EXACTLY - and it doesn't matter that they're Korean, Italian or Outer
Mongolian. The first generation will probably feel like foreigners, the
second generation will overcompensate and by the third generation whoever
they are they'll be as lazy and shiftless and any idiot white kid.

Blacks are one of the groups that have been way too slow to integrate. And
to my mind it wasn't because they were black but because the "black freedom"
movement of the 60's set them WAY back. Up to that time blacks were
beginning to integrate into society more and more. Surely there were plenty
of problems but we were overcoming them.

Dr. King would have probably managed to moderate the black separatist
movement but when he was assassinated and the voice of "black people" became
people like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers all that happened was that
distrust appeared overnight between blacks and whites who were beginning to
come to terms with the awful history of racism and slavery.

I THINK that we're almost back to the place where blacks and whites are
starting to trust one another again. Hopefully this will lead to a happier
society.
 
C

Carl Sundquist

Guest
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> EXACTLY - and it doesn't matter that they're Korean, Italian or Outer
> Mongolian. The first generation will probably feel like foreigners, the
> second generation will overcompensate and by the third generation whoever
> they are they'll be as lazy and shiftless and any idiot white kid.
>


There's a similar theory for children born into wealth.


> Dr. King would have probably managed to moderate the black separatist
> movement but when he was assassinated and the voice of "black people"
> became people like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers all that happened was
> that distrust appeared overnight between blacks and whites who were
> beginning to come to terms with the awful history of racism and slavery.
>


MLK died in April 1986

MX died in Feb 1965
 
Carl Sundquist wrote:
> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected] com> wrote:
> > EXACTLY - and it doesn't matter that they're Korean, Italian or Outer
> > Mongolian. The first generation will probably feel like foreigners, the
> > second generation will overcompensate and by the third generation whoever
> > they are they'll be as lazy and shiftless and any idiot white kid.

>
> There's a similar theory for children born into wealth.


Hey, my grandfather immigrated and spent years running a
grocery store and then as a route installment salesman
(a dying breed). And I post to RBR. So by the power of
anecdote, this hypothesis is proven!

Anyway, about Kunich's attitude to race, LBJ said,
"You do not take a person who, for years, has been hobbled by
chains and liberate him, bring him up to the starting line of a
race and then say, 'you are free to compete with all the others,'
and still justly believe that you have been completely fair."

> > Dr. King would have probably managed to moderate the black separatist
> > movement but when he was assassinated and the voice of "black people"
> > became people like Malcolm X and the Black Panthers all that happened was
> > that distrust appeared overnight between blacks and whites who were
> > beginning to come to terms with the awful history of racism and slavery.
> >

>
> MLK died in April 1986
>
> MX died in Feb 1965


Typo, you meant MLK died in April 1968, but your point stands.

BTW, distrust hardly "appeared overnight" between blacks and
whites in the 1960s. It was already there.

Ben
 
Ron Ruff wrote:

> It seems that the meer *possiblity* that a person can rise from minimum
> wage to being CEO is supposed to cover for the fact that 99.999% of
> them don't... and the majority stay right where they are... or get
> layed off.


dumbass,

plenty of people don't become CEOs but still do a lot better than
minimum wage. you don't think that's worth the effort ?

> In the US it is universally accepted that the only game in town is
> "getting ahead" and if you aren't playing, then there is something
> seriously wrong with you. Of course the great majority of "players"
> lose... but the illusion persists.


this is some lame lefty attitude. the being ambious is bad.

if you asked people why they work as hard as they do a lot of them will
say that is the sacrifice they are making for their family and their
children. people aren't just motivated by selfishness.
 
D

Donald Munro

Guest
Mark Fennell wrote:
> That, btw, is a pretty interesting summer job. As an "enumerator", you have
> to follow up with households that didn't turn in their forms. You get to
> visit all kinds of interesting neighborhoods and interview nice folks, many
> of whom don't particularly want to share information and/or can't speak
> English very well. But, you get to do it on your schedule and you get paid
> piecework--by the form.


The jobs master fatties will do to pay for their new carbon frame and
testosterone patches.
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> plenty of people don't become CEOs but still do a lot better than
> minimum wage. you don't think that's worth the effort ?


Which effort are you refering too? In my experience the people who are
working for minimum wage work as hard as anyone.

> this is some lame lefty attitude. the being ambious is bad.


Being ambitious (ie greedy and focused on improving your socio-economic
status) is a lame way to live.

> if you asked people why they work as hard as they do a lot of them will
> say that is the sacrifice they are making for their family and their
> children. people aren't just motivated by selfishness.


I never said a peep nor implied that "ambitious" people were selfish.
But now that you've brought it up, the "sacrifice" you mention is just
selfishness for the benefit of your kin. What of the rest of humanity?

It is difficult for me to see isolated cases of wealth as a wonderful
thing while the economy persistantly expands only the low end of the
wage scale.

Isn't it funny that we keep working harder and longer to get more than
we used to have and more than the other guy... but collectively we keep
getting less?
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 10:01:42 +0200, Donald Munro
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Fennell wrote:
>> That, btw, is a pretty interesting summer job. As an "enumerator", you have
>> to follow up with households that didn't turn in their forms. You get to
>> visit all kinds of interesting neighborhoods and interview nice folks, many
>> of whom don't particularly want to share information and/or can't speak
>> English very well. But, you get to do it on your schedule and you get paid
>> piecework--by the form.

>


Then there were the CB enumerators who figured out that they would
make more money if they filled in the forms themselves.
 
Ron Ruff wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > plenty of people don't become CEOs but still do a lot better than
> > minimum wage. you don't think that's worth the effort ?

>
> Which effort are you refering too? In my experience the people who are
> working for minimum wage work as hard as anyone.


dumbass,

i'm talking about the effort to "get ahead". i'll be the first to agree
that effort at work isn't proportional to compensation. if you work too
hard for not enough return (money or whatever) you are stupid (and
being exploited).

> I never said a peep nor implied that "ambitious" people were selfish.
> But now that you've brought it up, the "sacrifice" you mention is just
> selfishness for the benefit of your kin. What of the rest of humanity?


that's a heartwarming idea if you're a marxist in a parisian cafe, but
that is not a philosophy to live by. i don't see the rest of humanity
stepping up to pay any bills. the "rest of humanity" isn't going to
take care of your kin. colleges, music lessons, a decent house are
expensive, and forget about health care.

> It is difficult for me to see isolated cases of wealth as a wonderful
> thing while the economy persistantly expands only the low end of the
> wage scale.


who said that's wonderful. i think everyone should try to get their
piece and then think about doing charity work.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On 21 Aug 2006 01:22:45 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I never said a peep nor implied that "ambitious" people were selfish.
>But now that you've brought it up, the "sacrifice" you mention is just
>selfishness for the benefit of your kin. What of the rest of humanity?


Let humanity sacrifice for their kin and I'll sacrifice for mine.
 
S

steve

Guest
On 20-Aug-2006, smacked up and reeling, Jack Hollis <[email protected]>
blindly formulated
the following incoherence:

> >Like the mafia.

>
>
> The mafia had a #6
>
> 6. Kill the competition.


Corporate america has a similar # 6

6. Get Govt to regulate your competition to thier disadvantage.

And it's easy to work #6, because anti-capitalists think regulation is
sticking it to business in favor of the little guy. They dont realize their
letting/helping one business stick it to another, and the little guy loses
all around. In the late 80s, several insurance companies who had been
kicking competitors butts were ruined when regulators came down on the use
of "junk bonds". Policyholders lost tons of money as needlessly bankrupted
companies sold thier assets at a fraction of the original value. In the
disarray, insurance consultants and lawyers working from every angle were
shovelling money out the door and into thier own coffers as fast as they
could submit the bills. Mom and Pop lost thier savings while
anti-capitalists cheered at the demise of the junk bond market. Hooray.

Then there's #7

7. Get govt money in the door.

That ones easy to understand. Grease palms and get lucrative contracts with
little oversight. Ever heard of the "Big Dig"?

And

8. Get Govt to make people give you money.

You get the govt (at some level) to pass laws effectively increasing demand
for your product or service. Establishing a maximum number of children per
teacher, for example, means more teachers. Or requiring a RN to be present
in more circumstances means the price of RNs goes up. Requiring that
certain legal documents must be signed by a lawyer. Etc.

Theres a pattern here. Anyone spot it, yet?

steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce
 
R

Ron Ruff

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> that's a heartwarming idea if you're a marxist in a parisian cafe, but
> that is not a philosophy to live by. i don't see the rest of humanity
> stepping up to pay any bills. the "rest of humanity" isn't going to
> take care of your kin. colleges, music lessons, a decent house are
> expensive, and forget about health care.


Precisely... the median Us resident works more hours and gets less...
usually a lot less than they got 30 years ago. Most of the jobs that
are "created"... the ones that keep our unemployment rate so low... are
near minimum wage. The things that you are working so hard to obtain
were *easily* (and securely) achieved by factory workers a few decades
ago. Now everyone is scrambling and busting their ass to get less...
and afraid of losing it.

> i think everyone should try to get their
> piece and then think about doing charity work.


Charity work is not what I'm talking about. Think about what would
improve the general well being of our society and the world. The focus
on "getting their piece" is what has allowed people to ignore the fact
that the boat is sinking.
 
B

Bill C

Guest
Ron Ruff wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > that's a heartwarming idea if you're a marxist in a parisian cafe, but
> > that is not a philosophy to live by. i don't see the rest of humanity
> > stepping up to pay any bills. the "rest of humanity" isn't going to
> > take care of your kin. colleges, music lessons, a decent house are
> > expensive, and forget about health care.

>
> Precisely... the median Us resident works more hours and gets less...
> usually a lot less than they got 30 years ago. Most of the jobs that
> are "created"... the ones that keep our unemployment rate so low... are
> near minimum wage. The things that you are working so hard to obtain
> were *easily* (and securely) achieved by factory workers a few decades
> ago. Now everyone is scrambling and busting their ass to get less...
> and afraid of losing it.
>
> > i think everyone should try to get their
> > piece and then think about doing charity work.

>
> Charity work is not what I'm talking about. Think about what would
> improve the general well being of our society and the world. The focus
> on "getting their piece" is what has allowed people to ignore the fact
> that the boat is sinking.


Yep crank up the tarriffs on imports, screw over the developing world,
keep the jobs home at high wages.
Protectionism and smashing hope in developing countries rules. Keep
the western wage scale falsely high through cutting off the poor in the
rest of the world!
Bill C
 
S

Simon Brooke

Guest
in message <[email protected]>,
[email protected] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> that's a heartwarming idea if you're a marxist in a parisian cafe, but
> that is not a philosophy to live by. i don't see the rest of humanity
> stepping up to pay any bills. the "rest of humanity" isn't going to
> take care of your kin. colleges, music lessons, a decent house are
> expensive, and forget about health care.


Here in Old Europe, of course, the rest of humanity /does/ step up to pay
for your education and health care, and takes care of your kin.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On 20 Aug 2006 18:32:43 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It seems that the meer *possiblity* that a person can rise from minimum
>wage to being CEO is supposed to cover for the fact that 99.999% of
>them don't..


The way it works is that there are lots of jobs but usually only one
CEO. Nevertheless, as a CEO, the secret is to start your own
business, incorporate and name yourself CEO.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On 20 Aug 2006 18:32:43 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In the US it is universally accepted that the only game in town is
>"getting ahead" and if you aren't playing, then there is something
>seriously wrong with you.


The only one that would matter to is someone who is worried about what
other people think about him.

I have no problem with people who consider leisure time as a luxury as
long as they don't expect people who work to provide for them.

On the other hand, if people want to work to get ahead, that's their
choice. Some people aren't happy if they have too much leisure time.
To each his own.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On 20 Aug 2006 18:32:43 -0700, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Of course the great majority of "players"
>lose... but the illusion persists.



Tell that to the Koreans in NYC. Now there's a group of people who
know how to make the American dream work. They have a generous
helping of entrepreneurial spirit and they are willing to work hard to
make their businesses successful. They take care of their own. You
can bet that most first generation Korean kids wont be selling produce
because they're getting advanced degrees from the best colleges in the
country.

So don't tell me the dream's an illusion. It's still there, but you
have to work hard to get it. If you're poor, you have to work even
harder to get ahead. Even so, anyone who has a bit of brains and is
willing to work hard can do well in the US. You may never be a CEO,
but you'll be comfortable.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 21:41:51 GMT, "steve" <[email protected]> wrote:

>> >Like the mafia.

>>
>>
>> The mafia had a #6
>>
>> 6. Kill the competition.

>
>Corporate america has a similar # 6



But not literally.