Cycling Equipment · Public discussion

Rim Failure

Started by Email address hidden · · Last activity · 136 posts · 3,864 views

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Cycling Equipment
Published
18 January 2006
Last activity
29 January 2006
Original author
Email address hidden
Posts
136
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
3,864
Views / 30 days
0

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 21–40 of 136
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. G.T. said:


    jim beam said:


    bottom line, that looks like classic over-tension. there is no reason
    to exceed the spoke tension specified by the rim manufacturer.

    And just how slack would he have to run his spokes to avoid this? Slack
    enough that he would constantly be straightening his wheels due to poor
    spoke tension?

    Likely. Jim thinks gluing the nipples on the spokes is a good enough
    fix for a rim that can't take enough spoke tension to hold itself
    together. I say why stop there? Taping the nipples onto the spokes
    would be so much more decorative.

    He has plenty of rims to choose from these days. Folks like me and
    Jobst, who think a rim should hold enough spoke tension to stay tight,
    have fewer and fewer choices.

    Chalo Colina

  2. Quoted message said:
    Michael Press said:
    Quoted message said:

    I bought a set of brand new Ritchey Zero Comp road wheels, and the
    rear developed cracks around the spoke holes within a few months.
    I did maybe about 50% of my mileage on these wheels.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    A photo is here :

    http://www.midweekclub.com/temp/rimcrack.jpg

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    About half the spoke holes for the drive side spokes have cracks
    like these. The rims have a thin silver anodizing and there are no
    rim eyelets. The rim is an offset design, to reduce the left
    side/right side tension difference.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I didn't mess with the spoke tensions until the spokes became very
    loose and I had to re-tension the wheel myself.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Is there an explanation of why this happened? and what rim should
    I replace it with?

    Quoted message said:

    Cracking like that should never happen. All I can say is that
    companies with a grip on the market prefer to sell rims that break.
    Making a light rim that does not break at the spoke hole is well
    understood. Good rims have been made for decades. There is no
    manufacturing-engineering reason for making inferior rims. The
    reason to make inferior rims is so that folks buy more rims at
    inflated prices.

    It doesn't seem to be a cost reason either because socketed rims cost
    less than most rims that replaced them. That sockets were necessary
    was discovered 50 years ago when most major manufacturers used sockets
    in their tubular rims and then offered rims like the MA-2 when
    clinchers became the mainstream.

    I was greatly disappointed when hard anodized rims showed up again
    when socketed rims were discontinued with a big splash from Mavic
    about how welded, machined, anodized rims were improving bicycling.

    So here we are discussing cracked rims and reduced spoke tension,
    things that weren't issues prior to all these NEW rims.

    Jobst Brandt

    you have a problem with these new fangled horseless carriages too don't
    you. did you know that we have machines that can fly these days? and
    ships made of [gasp] /iron/???

    if you knew what you were talking about with rim cracking or spoke
    fatigue, it would be one thing, but to come from a position of utter
    ignorance on these subjects, as proven repeatedly, it's quite another.
    but i suppose you're doing the only thing you know how to do - argue the
    toss just for the sake of it - facts be damned.

  3. Chalo said:
    G.T. said:
    jim beam said:

    bottom line, that looks like classic over-tension. there is no reason
    to exceed the spoke tension specified by the rim manufacturer.

    And just how slack would he have to run his spokes to avoid this? Slack
    enough that he would constantly be straightening his wheels due to poor
    spoke tension?

    Likely. Jim thinks gluing the nipples on the spokes is a good enough
    fix for a rim that can't take enough spoke tension to hold itself
    together. I say why stop there? Taping the nipples onto the spokes
    would be so much more decorative.

    He has plenty of rims to choose from these days. Folks like me and
    Jobst, who think a rim should hold enough spoke tension to stay tight,
    have fewer and fewer choices.

    Chalo Colina


    but chalo, i'm about 9 months [~3800 miles] into a mavic cosmos rear
    wheel whose left rear spokes audibly loosen honking up hills under my
    205#, and that rim is true to within 0.2mm. no fooling. it's straight
    out of the box, has ~900N drive side spoke tension, a very shallow
    bracing angle and only 28 spokes. it /is/ assisted by nylocked nipples,
    but surely the point is to have a wheel that stays true and doesn't
    crack? i just can't see how anyone could have a problem with a wheel
    like this - unless of course if flies in the face of selling a book full
    of mystique & witchcraft.

  4. Nick Payne said:

    I had two rear 32-spoke wheels with Ritchey OCR rims crack at the eyelets
    within their first year of use. I replaced the rims with Velocity Aerohead
    OC and have not had any similar problems since.

    thanks nick. i was wondering if others had experienced the same problem
    with ritchey rims. the aerohead oc looks like it could be a replacement
    using the same spokes, is that true ?

    i wouldn't buy prebuilt wheels like these except this wheelset was much
    cheaper than buying parts separately.

    when i retensioned the wheel i didn't come close to the compressive
    limit of the rim which i've read about on r.b.tech. i just wanted to
    take up the tension so that the spokes would not come loose.

    one interesting observation is that though the rim is designed to
    reduce the left right tension difference, the cracks are only around
    the holes for the right side spokes.

  5. Quoted message said:


    Oh great. Here we are back at the victim is at fault. Maybe you can

    Jobst and all my intention of asking those questions was that may be the
    wheels/rims are for a different purpose. it is like you do not do a
    lot of dirt trails on a road bike - it is just not meant to be. Just
    like that, some wheels are intended to be racing wheels and hence will
    not satisfy the requirements of an normal cyclist.

    my 2 cents about the all the rim failure is: there is a new class of
    rims/wheels which are for racing community - more like a short use. And
    because of this new category, the normal day-to-day cyclist's market is
    getting killed.

    What the manufacturers should acknowledge is that these are two
    different markets. A commuter or touring cyclist would not want any
    fancy racing kind of wheels if their #1 priority is long life. And when
    the manufacturers understand this, then the market for sturdy, long-life
    rims/wheels will grow.

    my guess is that in the good old days, sturdy/long-life wheels were
    necessary and sufficient for racing, but now with high levels of
    competition, racers are craving for reducing every milligram of weight
    and the racing surfaces are better - hence the light weight, short life
    fragile rims/wheels.

    +ravi

  6. Quoted message said:

    Recall that
    socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    bow to appease the rim gods.

    And we had much less dish and much lower tension in the RH spokes
    without the left side rattling loose
    --
    ---
    Marten Gerritsen

    INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
    www.m-gineering.nl

  7. In article <[email hidden]>, Mike

    Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    I had an Italian manufacturer visit here in early December. I showed him
    one of his 1970 saddles on the bike I ride every day. He looked me right
    in the eye and said "If we had kept making things that lasted that long we
    would be out of business". Direct quote, take it as you will.

    I take it as an exceptionally short-sighted way of looking at things.

    That sums it up nicely. It seems to me that, all other things be equal,
    if they continued making things that lasted that long it would be those
    that didn't who would find themselves out of business.

    Luke

  8. In article <[email hidden]>,
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Recall that
    socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    bow to appease the rim gods. I hope you are aware that the radial
    load of the loaded bicycle coasting along on a road is the highest
    stress to which rims are subjected.

    <snip>

    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    Thanks
    Luke

  9. In article <[email hidden]>, Luke

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Recall that
    socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    bow to appease the rim gods. I hope you are aware that the radial
    load of the loaded bicycle coasting along on a road is the highest
    stress to which rims are subjected.

    <snip>

    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    Thanks
    Luke

    Hold the phone! Since posting, the Alzheimer's clouds cleared and I
    recalled one of my spare winter wheels exhibited socket-like symptoms.
    Inattention to the wheel - its been 5 years or so since I last removed
    its rim tape - had relegated the rim's features[1] to an obscure corner
    of my memory.

    I hadn't anticipated the rim's sockets would be so rusty.
    Disappointing, since the rim, having served on various fixed gear
    bikes, is in otherwise excellent condition.

    1. Photos of rim sockets at
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/96622004@N00/

  10. jim beam said:

    but chalo, i'm about 9 months [~3800 miles] into a mavic cosmos rear
    wheel whose left rear spokes audibly loosen honking up hills under my
    205#, and that rim is true to within 0.2mm. no fooling.

    Rubbish. You make up things like this I suppose, since there's no way
    anyone else can disprove it. You go la-la away, while the rest of the
    real world moves on.

    it's straight

    Quoted message said:

    out of the box, has ~900N drive side spoke tension, a very shallow
    bracing angle and only 28 spokes. it /is/ assisted by nylocked nipples,
    but surely the point is to have a wheel that stays true and doesn't
    crack? i just can't see how anyone could have a problem with a wheel
    like this - unless of course if flies in the face of selling a book full
    of mystique & witchcraft.

  11. jim beam said:

    if you knew what you were talking about with rim cracking or spoke
    fatigue, it would be one thing, but to come from a position of utter
    ignorance on these subjects, as proven repeatedly, it's quite another.

    Proven by you? Uh, show us the math, jimbo. Rants, raves and
    misdirections don't make for credible arguments.

    Quoted message said:

    but i suppose you're doing the only thing you know how to do - argue the
    toss just for the sake of it - facts be damned.

    Facts! This is truly rich, coming from you, an ignoramus with knowledge
    gained from pop magazines.

  12. Luke said:


    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    "Socket" = "double eyelet". It's a bell-shaped grommet that sits on
    both the inner and outer walls of a rim. Here is a drawing of a cross
    section of a double-eyeleted tubular rim:
    http://www.lickbike.com/lickimages/2033.gif

    Chalo Colina

  13. Mike Jacoubowsky said:
    Quoted message said:

    There is no manufacturing-engineering
    reason for making inferior rims. The reason to make
    inferior rims is so that folks buy more rims at inflated
    prices.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

    Even the dumbest bicycle component company isn't stupid enough to think that
    people are likely to pay $$$ to replace equipment that failed before its
    time with more from the same company. Sure, some people may, but a whole lot
    of people are going to be buying something from a competing company. The
    only people who would benefit from making product that consistently failed
    earlier than it should would be those with a near-monopoly, and that doesn't
    exist in the wheel-goods section of the marketplace. Lots and lots and lots
    of options. And no, there's not a conspiracy among the various companies to
    all make shoddy product so they sell more. That's giving them way too much
    credit.

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
    www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

    I think that it's not as simple as the idea that there's a giant
    conspiracy or that any company makes stuff that's blatantly shoddy and
    won't last, but not accurate to say that this stuff has nothing to do
    with, as was the original argument, the reasons why manufacturers make
    inferior rims. For various reasons -ignorant design, cost-cutting,
    feeding or creating hype, and perhaps indeed intentionally limiting
    service life- rim makers, like many other bike component makers, are
    operating in a climate where no one at all makes rims that generally
    last as long as possible for a given rim type and weight. Everything is
    anodized and/or has single eyelets, and there are many other problems
    with what's currently available. How we got there is complex, but the
    fact is that usually in this type of status quo, it's rare for any
    manufacturer, especially a big one, to step out of the norm and make
    stuff more durable again. That's just not how they think their profits
    are going to be maximized, and it's not because they're simply
    overlooking the advantages of having a reputation for making more
    durable stuff. What level of product life a manufacturer wants is a
    complex question, but it's one that they known to ask and has
    everything to do with how viable they can be, and that pretty much
    everyone chooses to answer, at some level, with something besides "as
    much as possible, all else being equal, plus we're gonna be the only
    company to do this big seemingly backwards-looking thing that does away
    with all these marketing-based features and is just as durable and
    high-performing as anything else." Companies have every reason to push
    limited product lifespans as far as they think they can get away with,
    it's just that executing this is complex because consumers do in fact
    care about buying what they perceive as reasonably durable products.
    And it's perfectly possible for an upstart to get in the middle of this
    status quo, but upstarts have their own challenges.

  14. jim beam said:
    Chalo said:


    He has plenty of rims to choose from these days. Folks like me and
    Jobst, who think a rim should hold enough spoke tension to stay tight,
    have fewer and fewer choices.


    but chalo, i'm about 9 months [~3800 miles] into a mavic cosmos rear
    wheel whose left rear spokes audibly loosen honking up hills under my
    205#, and that rim is true to within 0.2mm. no fooling. it's straight
    out of the box, has ~900N drive side spoke tension, a very shallow
    bracing angle and only 28 spokes.

    I have a modest proposal for you. I weigh precisely the same as you at
    205 pounds. I will be happy to swap your wheel for my handbuilt 105 wheel
    with Alex rims and 36 spokes. I would happily cycle with it on my normal
    commute and occasional Sunday toodle about the lake.

    After 3800 miles I'll even be content to ship it's remains back to you in
    a cardboard box.

    --
    Dane Buson - [email hidden]
    "sic transit gloria: Gloria threw up on the bus."

  15. Dane Buson said:
    jim beam said:
    Chalo said:

    He has plenty of rims to choose from these days. Folks like me and
    Jobst, who think a rim should hold enough spoke tension to stay tight,
    have fewer and fewer choices.

    but chalo, i'm about 9 months [~3800 miles] into a mavic cosmos rear
    wheel whose left rear spokes audibly loosen honking up hills under my
    205#, and that rim is true to within 0.2mm. no fooling. it's straight
    out of the box, has ~900N drive side spoke tension, a very shallow
    bracing angle and only 28 spokes.

    I have a modest proposal for you. I weigh precisely the same as you at
    205 pounds. I will be happy to swap your wheel for my handbuilt 105 wheel
    with Alex rims and 36 spokes. I would happily cycle with it on my normal
    commute and occasional Sunday toodle about the lake.

    After 3800 miles I'll even be content to ship it's remains back to you in
    a cardboard box.


    ah, the wise words of an individual that's prepared to think for them
    self and bother to do their own testing, not regurgitate the mindless
    drivel of the hopelessly inexpert that they read on usenet.

    no, i won't take your wheel because:

    1. my wheel is better in cross winds. i commute across the golden gate
    bridge, and that's a real issue some days.

    2. my wheel has proven to have much better bearing seals in the wet
    compared to the 105 i used previously.

    3. my wheel is fine!

    i don't care or endorse any one wheel or product. but i /do/ care when
    mindless garbage gets repeated here as fact when it's blatantly untrue.
    what's true is that the wheel i'm using has withstood service as
    described, contrary to "theory" here on rbt. there's a waggonload of
    other myths on similar topics repeated here, all with a common source.
    i'd repeat a few of them, but it gets so very very dull to replicate
    what google will reveal to you in just a few seconds.

  16. Luke said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Luke

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Recall that
    socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    bow to appease the rim gods. I hope you are aware that the radial
    load of the loaded bicycle coasting along on a road is the highest
    stress to which rims are subjected.

    <snip>

    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    Thanks
    Luke

    Hold the phone! Since posting, the Alzheimer's clouds cleared and I
    recalled one of my spare winter wheels exhibited socket-like symptoms.
    Inattention to the wheel - its been 5 years or so since I last removed
    its rim tape - had relegated the rim's features[1] to an obscure corner
    of my memory.

    I hadn't anticipated the rim's sockets would be so rusty.
    Disappointing, since the rim, having served on various fixed gear
    bikes, is in otherwise excellent condition.

    1. Photos of rim sockets at
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/96622004@N00/

    omg!!! photoshop fraud!!! sockets don't rust!!! anodized rims
    crack!!! there must be some dreadful mistake...

  17. Ravi said:


    Quoted message said:


    Oh great. Here we are back at the victim is at fault. Maybe you can

    my guess is that in the good old days, sturdy/long-life wheels were
    necessary and sufficient for racing, but now with high levels of
    competition, racers are craving for reducing every milligram of weight
    and the racing surfaces are better - hence the light weight, short life
    fragile rims/wheels.

    So those that don't race, the bulk of us cyclists, have to put up with
    [censored] rims now?

    Greg

    --
    "All my time I spent in heaven
    Revelries of dance and wine
    Waking to the sound of laughter
    Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

  18. jim beam said:
    Luke said:

    In article <[email hidden]>, Luke

    Quoted message said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    > Recall that
    > socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    > and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    > rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    > bow to appease the rim gods. I hope you are aware that the radial
    > load of the loaded bicycle coasting along on a road is the highest
    > stress to which rims are subjected.

    <snip>

    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    Thanks
    Luke

    Hold the phone! Since posting, the Alzheimer's clouds cleared and I
    recalled one of my spare winter wheels exhibited socket-like symptoms.
    Inattention to the wheel - its been 5 years or so since I last removed
    its rim tape - had relegated the rim's features[1] to an obscure corner
    of my memory.
    I hadn't anticipated the rim's sockets would be so rusty.
    Disappointing, since the rim, having served on various fixed gear
    bikes, is in otherwise excellent condition.

    1. Photos of rim sockets at
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/96622004@N00/

    omg!!! photoshop fraud!!! sockets don't rust!!!

    I have 14 year old MA-2s and the sockets are rusted. Is that a problem?
    I have had 4 month old recent model Mavics crack around the spoke
    holes. Is that not a problem?

    Greg

    anodized rims

    Quoted message said:

    crack!!! there must be some dreadful mistake...

    --
    "All my time I spent in heaven
    Revelries of dance and wine
    Waking to the sound of laughter
    Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

  19. Luke said:


    1. Photos of rim sockets at
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/96622004@N00/

    FYI-- that looks like a Mavic Module 3, the slightly bigger brother of
    the MA2 and MA40.

    Chalo Colina

  20. In article <[email hidden]>,

    Luke said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Recall that
    socketed rims were used on roads in the Alps before they were paved
    and European cities had many cobble stone streets. We did not have
    rim cracking then so how do you suggest we restrict our bicycling to
    bow to appease the rim gods. I hope you are aware that the radial
    load of the loaded bicycle coasting along on a road is the highest
    stress to which rims are subjected.

    <snip>

    I've never seen a rim with sockets; only those with and without
    eyelets. Could you post a link to a photo or a diagram depicting a rim
    with sockets?

    <http://www.torelli.com/parts/wheels.html>

    The `Triumph' and `Master' at the bottom of the page.

    Quoted message said:

    How does a socket differ from an eyelet in buttressing spoke tension at
    the nipple?

    The socket supports the spoke nipple.
    The socket is supported by two walls in a box section rim.

    --
    Michael Press

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.