Ritalin Helps Beat Cancer Fatigue



On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:59:05 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:09:27 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > "fellow traveller"??? thats a useful expresion..
>> >
>> > IOW you are totally aware that the lady is NOT in fact a scientologist and its just another
>> > pathetic attempt to smear using "guilt by association"
>>
>> From all my reading, she is freely travelling with them. For whatever purpose, she has made a
>> considered to affiliate with this Kriminal Kult.
>
>
>Not to mention that exact same "argument" is used to deny the accuracy of medical tests that are
>run by labs that are "guilty by association" with pharmaceutical companies....
>
>Some people seem to want one set of rules for them, and another for others...

there are no medical tests for ADHD. It is not a medical condition.
 
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:02:00 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are sure showing.. As I said
>> >> ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is nothing remotely like diabetes..
>> >
>> >However, it is like chronic pain,
>>
>> Have you ever had chronic pain? you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question of
>> "forgetting" to take painkillers..
>
>
>
>Hmmm...sounds like an "addiction" to me....if a person never forgets to take their drug, they must
>be addicted...right?

If you are in chronic pain you do not forget to take painkillers. It is no secret that opiates and
painkillers like Oxycontin are highly addictive.

>And a person who does forget must not be addicted, right?

I suspect that they remember fast enough when the withdrawal symptoms kick in..

>
>Considering that both chronic pain and ADHD are diagnosed subjectively...and the former patients
>never forget their meds while the latter often do...then why is the ADHDer called addicted to drugs
>for a "made up condition" and the pain sufferer is not?

the addictive qualities are a function of the drug.. Both opiates and amphetamines are highly
addictive.

>Just trying to understand the POV of those who make this "distinction"...

yes you can be quite rational..but as soon as the spectre of scientology is summoned up you became a
eccentric and hysterical as the rest.. a curious phenomenum
 
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:25:15 +0000, jake <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>>Some people seem to want one set of rules for them, and another for others...
>
>there are no medical tests for ADHD. It is not a medical condition.

Now *this* is funny.

Back into Bozoland with you, little one. G'won, now.
 
jake <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

>
>
> >RSD, CFS, MCS, etc.
> >
> >And, NONE of those have clearly objective tests.
>
> sure... I would say its status is exactly that of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

Fine.

How about RSD, migraine, and schizophrenia? You keep dodging those questions.

--
CBI, MD
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are sure showing.. As I said
> >> ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is nothing remotely like diabetes..
> >
> >However, it is like chronic pain,
>
> Have you ever had chronic pain? you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question of
> "forgetting" to take painkillers..

Hmmm...sounds like an "addiction" to me....if a person never forgets to take their drug, they must
be addicted...right? And a person who does forget must not be addicted, right?

Considering that both chronic pain and ADHD are diagnosed subjectively...and the former patients
never forget their meds while the latter often do...then why is the ADHDer called addicted to drugs
for a "made up condition" and the pain sufferer is not?

Just trying to understand the POV of those who make this "distinction"... Buny
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:02:00 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are sure showing.. As I said
> >> >> ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is nothing remotely like diabetes..
> >> >
> >> >However, it is like chronic pain,
> >>
> >> Have you ever had chronic pain? you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question of
> >> "forgetting" to take painkillers..
> >
> >
> >
> >Hmmm...sounds like an "addiction" to me....if a person never forgets to
take
> >their drug, they must be addicted...right?
>
> If you are in chronic pain you do not forget to take painkillers. It is no secret that opiates and
> painkillers like Oxycontin are highly addictive.

True...but what about those who are using NSAIDs for chronic conditions?

>
> >And a person who does forget must not be addicted, right?
>
> I suspect that they remember fast enough when the withdrawal symptoms kick in..

Did ya know that you can get rebound headaches from overuse of NSAIDs?
http://www.healthyroads.com/MyLibrary/Data/ash_ref/htm/art_ReboundHeadache.asp

>
> >
> >Considering that both chronic pain and ADHD are diagnosed
subjectively...and
> >the former patients never forget their meds while the latter often
do...then
> >why is the ADHDer called addicted to drugs for a "made up condition" and
the
> >pain sufferer is not?
>
> the addictive qualities are a function of the drug.. Both opiates and amphetamines are highly
> addictive.

Explain the rebound headaches for overuse/abuse of NSAIDs (not opiates)

>
> >Just trying to understand the POV of those who make this "distinction"...
>
> yes you can be quite rational..but as soon as the spectre of scientology is summoned up you became
> a eccentric and hysterical as the rest.. a curious phenomenum

I have never been impressed with the extremism of that group...anyone who decides what is right for
*everyone else* no matter what, strikes me as eccentric and hysterical. I have never insisted that
all people take medication, that it is right for everyone. I believe that this is something to be
decided by the patient and the doctor...however, when someone who has never met me insists that I
should not be allowed to do this, that they can "practice medicine" for my docotr, *that* is where I
get defensive. Wouldn't you get upset if a stranger insists that you and your doctor not be the ones
to decide your health care?

Buny
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:59:05 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote in
message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >>
> >> "jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:09:27 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > "fellow traveller"??? thats a useful expresion..
> >> >
> >> > IOW you are totally aware that the lady is NOT in fact a
scientologist
> >> > and its just another pathetic attempt to smear using "guilt by association"
> >>
> >> From all my reading, she is freely travelling with them. For whatever purpose, she has made a
> >> considered to affiliate with this Kriminal
Kult.
> >
> >
> >Not to mention that exact same "argument" is used to deny the accuracy of medical tests that are
> >run by labs that are "guilty by association" with pharmaceutical companies....
> >
> >Some people seem to want one set of rules for them, and another for others...
>
> there are no medical tests for ADHD. It is not a medical condition.
>

What are the "medical tests" for near-sightedness? Far-sightedness? Pain? Autism? Sensory
integration disorder? If you cannot state any, does that mean that these are not medical conditions?
That they should/can not be treated? That they are not real?

Try to spend some time volunteering in special education classes with students who do not have
"medical conditions" because the tests for them are not truly objective...and whil you are at it,
insist that everyone remove their prescription lenses, because that too is subjective, not
objectively tested...

Until then, do not tell me that my family is not dealing with disabling conditions, such as ADHD,
autism, sid, pain....

Buny
 
"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 04:13:22 GMT, "CBI" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > >news:[email protected]...
> > >> >Specifically, how do you establish that it is real?
> > >>
> > >> I do not..that is a matter for a neurologist..
> > >
> > >Then how do you establish that ADHD is not real without also having to discount pain?
> >
> > the onus is on the person wishing to put an infant on a lifetime of amphetamines to establish
> > the reality of their construct..
> >
> > the existence of referred pain in no way justifies this..
>
> You continue to dodge my question about the difference. You accept
treatment
> for one subjective syndrome with no objective test but reject another becasue it lacks an
> objective test. Please tell us how you logically
defend
> this apparent contradiction.

Come to think of it...are not vision problems such as near- and far-sightedness also diagnosed the
same way? "OK, tell me which one works for you better...which lens helps you see better"

Buny
 
"Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:09:27 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > "fellow traveller"??? thats a useful expresion..
> >
> > IOW you are totally aware that the lady is NOT in fact a scientologist and its just another
> > pathetic attempt to smear using "guilt by association"
>
> From all my reading, she is freely travelling with them. For whatever purpose, she has made a
> considered to affiliate with this Kriminal Kult.

Not to mention that exact same "argument" is used to deny the accuracy of medical tests that are run
by labs that are "guilty by association" with pharmaceutical companies....

Some people seem to want one set of rules for them, and another for others...

Buny
 
"Jon Quixote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:9uqFb.8021$Fg.5496@lakeread01...
> >
> > "Jon Quixote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:z%[email protected]...
> > >
> > > I was... addicted to keeping focused. That is the reason I used it,
I'm
> > > certain. It was my "pause that refreshes ("concentrates", that is,) at
> the
> > > times I couldn't be smoking.
> >
> >
> > You do realise that nicotine (in cigarettes) is also a central nervous *stimulant*?
> >
> > Buny
>
> Yepper. Note the phrasing: "...at the times I couldn't be smoking." It
never
> really struck me as strange that I didn't particularly want/need soda when
I
> was smoking or vice-versa - now I know why. :)
>
> It also explains more neatly why I didn't/don't have any particular
smoking
> pattern. I'll *average* perhaps a pack a day, but there are times it'll shoot up to three packs(!)
> and others where I may only smoke half a pack
or
> less. There's the stress-reduction element, certainly, but in hindsight
(and
> monitoring myself now) I see that I tend to smoke (or drink soda in the past) the most intensely
> when I'm hyperfocusing.
>
> I recall/notice distinctly that I tend to smoke/drink when I want to
"gather
> my thoughts" or take a break from whatever I'm hyperfocusing on... apparently I'm boostin' the ol'
> brain cells attention rate. ;)

I wan't trying to be annoying...it is just that many do/did not realise this. The thing that
brought it "home" to me (who have never smoked--though both parents did and were heavy caffeine
drinkers) was this: Zyban is used to help stop smoking--and is the same medication as Welbutrin,
which is used for ADHD.

FWIW, my parents quit smoking when my dad developed skin cancer (the smoking increased his nausea
during treatments...he quit, and so did my mom). Unfortunately, he passed away a couple of years
later when the cancer spread--but his last years were smoke-free (though he went through a couple of
pots a day of dark-roasted Louisianne coffe...and was content doing so)....Mom still goes through a
LOT of iced tea every day...and was surprised when I was diagnosed ADHD (though not surprised when
my sons were almost 10 years earlier than my Dx)....I still consume some caffeine--though not near
as much as when I was not on meds....and I do not have the "rebound headaches" when coming off of
methylphenidate that I did when coming off of caffeine...

FWIW, I am rather big on the smoking issue....I try not to be, but being asthmatic and allergic,
when someone else lights up, it impacts my ability to breathe...usually I leave the room, but it is
not always possible...I understand a person's rights, including the right to smoke...but I also
understand a person's rights to breathe without impediment...and *that* is a tricky balancing act
for any group of people....

Buny
 
"Jon Quixote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:H0sFb.5216$5%[email protected]...
> "Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Jon Quixote" <[email protected]> wrote
> > > You know, speaking of caffiene, that more than anything has sent me
> > towards
> > > tracking down my likely ADHD. I drank anywhere from two to three
> > TWO-LITERS
> > > of soda a day for over twenty years. Started with the "Real Thing",
then
> > > somehow became habituated to Diet Pepsi then Diet Dr. Pepper. I was a running joke even to
> > > myself, for I kept a two-liter "going"
all
> > the
> > > time no matter where I was, including out to dinner in public, etc. No diabetes, no sugar
> > > craving, just drank it all the time and thought
it
> > was
> >
> > And you weren't addicted? Ok, maybe not, but most people who tell stories like that were
> > addicts.
>
> No, I don't believe I was. There were many times where I didn't have
access
> to soda for whatever reason, and for significant periods of time (as in months where I was
> hitchiking cross-country), yet I never craved/missed
it.
> Actually, I'll qualify that a bit - during those times, I'd occasionally miss the *flavor* of the
> soda, as compared to having to drink water, but those were literally passing thoughts.

You were very lucky....whenever I was drinking that muc caffeine (sodas, tea, coffee, etc)....and
had to stop cold turkey, I had major headaches that lasted for days--usually a dose of caffeine
stopped it (because pain meds such as aspirin, motrin, or tylenol did not--only made it possible to
function at a low level).

> Contrary-wise, I can take or leave my Concerta or Ritalin without any
other
> ill affect except that my procrastination and lack of motivation/organization worsens back to
> "normal", this after being on both of them (and Adderall in the beginning) for nearly a year now.

<nodding> Same here...methylphenidate allowed me to cut out caffeine without the headaches...and
missing a dose or two (or three) does not cause the headaches....it just causes return of symptoms
of ADHD....

Buny
 
"SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:KEFFb.9120$Fg.2980@lakeread01...
>
> "Jon Quixote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
<snip>
> > I recall/notice distinctly that I tend to smoke/drink when I want to
> "gather
> > my thoughts" or take a break from whatever I'm hyperfocusing on... apparently I'm boostin' the
> > ol' brain cells attention rate. ;)
>
>
> I wan't trying to be annoying...it is just that many do/did not realise this.

If I sounded annoyed, my apologies - I tried sticking in an emoticon to make sure I didn't come
across as such, but we're all well aware that in ngs, "words speak louder than actions" at times. :)

> The thing that brought it "home" to me (who have never smoked--though
> both parents did and were heavy caffeine drinkers) was this: Zyban is
used
> to help stop smoking--and is the same medication as Welbutrin, which is
used
> for ADHD.

Yeah, I know - unfortunately, it doesn't do it for me in terms of cessation of craving. It prolongs
how long before I'll notice I *have* the craving, but that's not quite the same thing. :)

> FWIW, my parents quit smoking when my dad developed skin cancer (the
smoking
> increased his nausea during treatments...he quit, and so did my mom). Unfortunately, he passed
> away a couple of years later when the cancer spread--but his last years were smoke-free (though he
> went through a
couple
> of pots a day of dark-roasted Louisianne coffe...and was content doing so)....Mom still goes
> through a LOT of iced tea every day...and was surprised when I was diagnosed ADHD (though not
> surprised when my sons
were
> almost 10 years earlier than my Dx)....I still consume some
caffeine--though
> not near as much as when I was not on meds....and I do not have the
"rebound
> headaches" when coming off of methylphenidate that I did when coming off
of
> caffeine...

My mom, too, went through large amounts of soda. She never really worried about whether she was
addicted to it or not - as I think I mentioned elsewhere, I believed her to be a bit of a
hypochondriac, and if she thought about the possibility at all, it was likely as a "lesser evil"
type of thing when compared against the other problems she had.

> FWIW, I am rather big on the smoking issue....I try not to be, but being asthmatic and allergic,
> when someone else lights up, it impacts my ability to breathe...usually I leave the room, but it
> is not always possible...I understand a person's rights, including the right to smoke...but I also
> understand a person's rights to breathe without impediment...and *that* is
a
> tricky balancing act for any group of people....

Heh, I'd prolly be a (relatively) pleasant surprise for you, then, as I'm an apologetic smoker, and
go out of my way to make sure that I don't bother non-smokers - because I still vividly remember my
own discomfort as a child with two parents smoking in the car while we drove around then(?)-heavily-
polluted downtown Honolulu... c-a-a-a-r-SICK! The pervasive smell of sulphur-tinged, rotting
pineapple does NOT lessen second-hand smoke's effects, I'm here to TESTIFY!

--
Jon Quixote What is axiomatic frequently isn't.
 
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:25:53 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:56:45 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 22:16:48 GMT, [email protected] (David Wright) wrote:
>> >> >What arguments.
>> >>
>> >> Ms Blocks argument that ADHD is not remotely like diabetes and it it disingeneous to suggest
>> >> it is..
>> >>
>> >> not to mention an insult to those suffering from this ghastly disabling disease.
>> >
>> >
>> >Which disabling disease...diabetes, or ADHD? I can tell you that my father-in-law's and my
>> >grandmother's diabetes impacts their quality of
>life
>> >much less than my sons' ADHD does....and both are being treated...which lessens the impact for
>> >both, thank goodness.
>>
>> I am pleased to hear it.
>>
>> However for ADHD missionaries to piggyback on diabetes and claim they are in any way comparable
>> remains a gross insult.
>>
>>
>> Diabetes death rate skyrockets
>>
>> http://archives.thedaily.washington.edu/2000/012100/N5.DiabetesCo.html
>
>
><SNIP of article about death rates of untreated diabetes>
>
>I agree that untreated diabetes is dangerous, even deadly...would you agree that untreated ADHD is
>also potentially dangerous and deadly? http://www.childadvocate.net/ADHD_drivers.htm SAN FRANCISCO
>(Reuters Health) - The already-steep learning curve for adolescent drivers is a mountain for those
>who live with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), according to Dr. Daniel J. Cox,
>speaking here at the 49th annual meeting of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent
>Psychiatry.
>
>"Motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death in adolescents, and the rate for such
>deaths is four times higher for adolescent drivers with ADHD," Cox told Reuters Health. "The key
>ADHD-related problem that interferes with safe driving is inattention. However, when treated with
>stimulant therapy, adolescents with ADHD drive as well as those without this condition." He is a
>professor of psychiatric medicine at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville.
>
>
>
>Another article on the same conference can be found:
>http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/84E42C96032F93F285256C61005DCCED
>
>
>http://www.nimh.nih.gov/events/mtaqa.cfm Children with untreated ADHD have higher than normal rates
>of injury.
>
>
>Think of what happens to a person who does things impulsively, who "leaps before he looks." *That*
>leads to accidents at a much higher rate than the one who "looks before he leaps". Untreated ADHD
>can be very dangerous--but not just for the ADHDer, but for those around him as well...

"Motor vehicle accidents are the leading cause of death in adolescents, andthe rate for such deaths
is four times higher for adolescent drivers with ADHD," Cox told Reuters Health. "The key ADHD-
related problem that interferes with safe driving is inattention. However, when treated with
stimulant therapy, adolescents with ADHD drive as well as those without this" condition."

hmmm... so he is saying kids(Dxed with ADHD)on speed drive more safely? thats food for thought I
must admit.. lots of food for thought there in fact..thank you for posting it..

>Do note this...like diabetes, ADHD does not always need medication to be treated....some diabetics
>do fine with diet and excercise (behavior modifications), some need the addition of medication to
>the behavior modifications. I.e., insulin alone will not treat the diabetes, but changes in
>behavior (diet, exercise) are also needed. The same goes for ADHD. Some do fine with behavior
>modification and coping mechanisms (such as those found http://www.add.org/content/school/list.htm
>) But there are those who need medication *in addition to* those behavior changes...medication
>alone will not treat ADHD any more than it will treat diabetes, when it is used.
>
>*That* is another similarity between the two...meds alone will not work, and meds are not necessary
>in all cases. Unfortunately, there are those who are vehemently anti-meds for ADHD, that they
>overlook this last statement from ADHDers like me--that meds alone are not the answer, and that
>meds are not always necessary...
>

well that sounds like refreshingly fair comment..
 
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:32:52 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:02:00 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >> >news:[email protected]...
>> >> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are sure showing.. As I said
>> >> >> ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is nothing remotely like diabetes..
>> >> >
>> >> >However, it is like chronic pain,
>> >>
>> >> Have you ever had chronic pain? you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question of
>> >> "forgetting" to take painkillers..
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >Hmmm...sounds like an "addiction" to me....if a person never forgets to
>take
>> >their drug, they must be addicted...right?
>>
>> If you are in chronic pain you do not forget to take painkillers. It is no secret that opiates
>> and painkillers like Oxycontin are highly addictive.
>
>True...but what about those who are using NSAIDs for chronic conditions?

well..I am not too sure they are being very smart.. there are worse things than being addicted In
terms of this discussion I guess you would have to say they are dependent but not addicted..

>
>>
>> >And a person who does forget must not be addicted, right?
>>
>> I suspect that they remember fast enough when the withdrawal symptoms kick in..
>
>Did ya know that you can get rebound headaches from overuse of NSAIDs?
>http://www.healthyroads.com/MyLibrary/Data/ash_ref/htm/art_ReboundHeadache.asp

overuse is sure not a good idea.. this should be publicized more often IMHO..

>
>
>>
>> >
>> >Considering that both chronic pain and ADHD are diagnosed
>subjectively...and
>> >the former patients never forget their meds while the latter often
>do...then
>> >why is the ADHDer called addicted to drugs for a "made up condition" and
>the
>> >pain sufferer is not?
>>
>> the addictive qualities are a function of the drug.. Both opiates and amphetamines are highly
>> addictive.
>
>Explain the rebound headaches for overuse/abuse of NSAIDs (not opiates)

lol...a bit of a burden when the experts dont know.. but "a history of taking prescription or
nonprescription pain relievers daily or almost every day, contrary to directions on the
package label"

sounds fair enough to me..

it brings to mind a similar discussion we had on OTC inhalers where you were perfectly correct..

>> >Just trying to understand the POV of those who make this "distinction"...
>>
>> yes you can be quite rational..but as soon as the spectre of scientology is summoned up you
>> became a eccentric and hysterical as the rest.. a curious phenomenum
>
>
>I have never been impressed with the extremism of that group...anyone who decides what is right for
>*everyone else* no matter what, strikes me as eccentric and hysterical.

and how about the extremism of those who troll around as self-styled "anti-scientologists" routinely
pack attacking poor devils who have never even heard of the damn group? raving about clams and god
knows what other madness..????

> I have never insisted that all people take medication, that it is right for everyone. I believe
> that this is something to be decided by the patient and the doctor...however, when someone who has
> never met me insists that I should not be allowed to do this, that they can "practice medicine"
> for my docotr, *that* is where I get defensive.

>Wouldn't you get upset if a stranger insists that you and your doctor not be the ones to decide
>your health care?

Indeed..

in other forums I am considered a pain for constantly criticizing mentally ill usenet doKtors.. who
diagnose and prescribe for unmet strangers from behind their keyboards..

odd that they almost invariably diagnose people as having the same problem as them and encourage
others to take the same drugs as they do ..

>
>Buny
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:25:53 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> hmmm... so he is saying kids(Dxed with ADHD)on speed drive more safely?

Why do you insist on using such an inflammatory word? Is it intentional, or ignorant? *That* is the
problem that those of us who choose to use medication run into, the attitude that ADHD
meds=speed=illicit drug abuse...

WRONG

But some do not *want* to hear that or understand that...

> thats food for thought I must admit.. lots of food for thought there in fact..thank you for
> posting it..

If you are *truly* thinking about it, that treated ADHD is better/safer that untreated...though
your inflammatory and prejudicial comment above leaves me believing that you are only being
condescending here.

>
> >Do note this...like diabetes, ADHD does not always need medication to be treated....some
> >diabetics do fine with diet and excercise (behavior modifications), some need the addition of
> >medication to the behavior modifications. I.e., insulin alone will not treat the diabetes, but
changes
> >in behavior (diet, exercise) are also needed. The same goes for ADHD.
Some
> >do fine with behavior modification and coping mechanisms (such as those found
> >http://www.add.org/content/school/list.htm ) But there are those
who
> >need medication *in addition to* those behavior changes...medication
alone
> >will not treat ADHD any more than it will treat diabetes, when it is
used.
> >
> >*That* is another similarity between the two...meds alone will not work,
and
> >meds are not necessary in all cases. Unfortunately, there are those who
are
> >vehemently anti-meds for ADHD, that they overlook this last statement
from
> >ADHDers like me--that meds alone are not the answer, and that meds are
not
> >always necessary...
> >
>
> well that sounds like refreshingly fair comment..
>
>

I try to be...because I know that extremism--on any side--leads to people not listening, but only
yelling...and it *is* what I believe, not just because I think someone else wants to hear it... Buny
 
"Joe Parsons" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 17:25:15 +0000, jake <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> >>Some people seem to want one set of rules for them, and another for others...
> >
> >there are no medical tests for ADHD. It is not a medical condition.
>
> Now *this* is funny.

There isn't a darn thing funny about the functional response children make to sharing territory with
odious persons creating an environment so hostile to such children that the childrens adapt in a
manner includes permanent alterations to their brain chemistry, originally named Minimal Brain
Dysfunction and only recently renamed ADHD to appease parents of unfortunate children.
 
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:36:28 -0600, "SumBuny"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Until then, do not tell me that my family is not dealing with disabling conditions, such as ADHD,
>autism, sid, pain....
>

I am not aware that pointing out that diabetes is nothing like ADHD is telling you and family
anything..or that I have ever suggested such a thing..
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:32:52 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:02:00 -0600, "SumBuny" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8"
> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are
sure
> >> >> >> showing.. As I said ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is
nothing
> >> >> >> remotely like diabetes..
> >> >> >
> >> >> >However, it is like chronic pain,
> >> >>
> >> >> Have you ever had chronic pain? you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question
> >> >> of "forgetting" to take painkillers..
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Hmmm...sounds like an "addiction" to me....if a person never forgets
to
> >take
> >> >their drug, they must be addicted...right?
> >>
> >> If you are in chronic pain you do not forget to take painkillers. It is no secret that opiates
> >> and painkillers like Oxycontin are highly addictive.
> >
> >True...but what about those who are using NSAIDs for chronic conditions?
>
> well..I am not too sure they are being very smart.. there are worse things than being addicted In
> terms of this discussion I guess you would have to say they are dependent but not addicted..

What is the difference, in your opinion?

>
>
> >
> >>
> >> >And a person who does forget must not be addicted, right?
> >>
> >> I suspect that they remember fast enough when the withdrawal symptoms kick in..
> >
> >Did ya know that you can get rebound headaches from overuse of NSAIDs?
>
>http://www.healthyroads.com/MyLibrary/Data/ash_ref/htm/art_ReboundHeadache.
asp
>
> overuse is sure not a good idea.. this should be publicized more often IMHO..

Agreed...overuse/abuse of *any* medication is not good--including ADHD meds...however, all too many
extremists do not seem to "hear" that...they believe that anyone using ADHD meds is abusing them...

>
>
>
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Considering that both chronic pain and ADHD are diagnosed
> >subjectively...and
> >> >the former patients never forget their meds while the latter often
> >do...then
> >> >why is the ADHDer called addicted to drugs for a "made up condition"
and
> >the
> >> >pain sufferer is not?
> >>
> >> the addictive qualities are a function of the drug.. Both opiates and amphetamines are highly
> >> addictive.
> >
> >Explain the rebound headaches for overuse/abuse of NSAIDs (not opiates)
>
> lol...a bit of a burden when the experts dont know.. but "a history of taking prescription or
> nonprescription pain relievers daily or almost every day, contrary to directions on the
> package label"
>
> sounds fair enough to me..
>
> it brings to mind a similar discussion we had on OTC inhalers where you were perfectly correct..

<nodding> Key words are "contrary to directions"...when a doctor directs you to take medication
daily or over an extended period of time, that is not considered overuse, right? As long as you are
working with your doctor, following his/her directions as far as dose and frequency, it is not abuse
or overuse, right?

Same for all medications...including those for mental health issues...

>
>
>
>
> >> >Just trying to understand the POV of those who make this
"distinction"...
> >>
> >> yes you can be quite rational..but as soon as the spectre of scientology is summoned up you
> >> became a eccentric and hysterical as the rest.. a curious phenomenum
> >
> >
> >I have never been impressed with the extremism of that group...anyone who decides what is right
> >for *everyone else* no matter what, strikes me as eccentric and hysterical.
>
> and how about the extremism of those who troll around as self-styled "anti-scientologists"
> routinely pack attacking poor devils who have never even heard of the damn group? raving about
> clams and god knows what other madness..????

Just because I do not participate in those does not mean I agree/support them...otherwise, I could
be accused of doing the same on many anti-ADHD med threads as well, no? <g>

>
>
>
> > I have never insisted that all people take medication, that it is right for everyone. I believe
> > that this is
something
> >to be decided by the patient and the doctor...however, when someone who
has
> >never met me insists that I should not be allowed to do this, that they
can
> >"practice medicine" for my docotr, *that* is where I get defensive.
>
> >Wouldn't you get upset if a stranger insists that you and your doctor not
be
> >the ones to decide your health care?
>
>
> Indeed..
>
> in other forums I am considered a pain for constantly criticizing mentally ill usenet doKtors..
> who diagnose and prescribe for unmet strangers from behind their keyboards..

<nodding> The frightening thing that I have seen is that it is not only mental health issues, but
just about any medical condition can be abused online...there is definately something to be said
about personal interaction with one's doc....many conditions mimic others...my grandfather had been
diagnosed as arthritic for years...only to be found with pancreatic cancer by a specialist who
happened to be in the office during one of his follow-ups...another friend was misdiagnosed with
Chron's (sp?) disease--he actually had leukemia...I do agree that ADHD is often misdiagnosed--but
misdiagnosis goes *both ways*. I.e., some who are diagnosed as ADHD do not have it, but that also
means that some people who are not diagnosed ADHD *do* have it.

>
> odd that they almost invariably diagnose people as having the same problem as them and encourage
> others to take the same drugs as they do

I do admit that I see much through the eyes of "ADHD, aspergers/autism, gifted, sensory
integrations disorder". Why? Because that is what my family is dealing with, and "If the only tool
one has is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail." I may see ADHD or autism, or SID where
it might not be, but I do not insist that medication is what everyone should have. If I am asked
what *I* (or my family) is doing/using, I do not lie. But I *do* insist that they go to their
doctor to get it checked/ruled out. If it wasn't for some folks doing that, my son's autism would
probably have gone undiagnosed for a few more years (he was not diagnosed aspergers until he was
8)...someone suggested I research that, and when I saw the description, I went to his doc and asked
that he be screened for it.

The same with ADHD...

YMMV, and we are all human and make mistakes...docs included <g> Buny
 
"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 11:24:00 GMT, "Marciosos8 Probertiosos8"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 10:21:56 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"jake" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 16:09:27 GMT, "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8"
> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Roger Schlafly" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:[email protected]...
> >> >> >> "Marciosos7 Probertiosos8" <[email protected]> wrote
> >> >> >> > >>Dr. Mary Ann Block
> >> >> >> > BTW, in some recent readsing, I came accross this little
gem....
> >> >> >> > http://www.fumento.com/adhdblock.html Imagine if anyone who is pro med used an expert
> >> >> >> > that was this
> >> >> >tainted.....
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> They do. (Do you mean Block or Fumento?)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Block, of course, as that was the context which you snipped and did
> >not
> >> >> >mention.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I usually enjoy Fumento's column, but he is a little off-base
here.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Disagree. I would say "Grand slam." (pun intended)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >He tries
> >> >> >> to smear Block with a scientology charge, when the connection is
> >very
> >> >> >> tenuous at best.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >********. I looked at all of it, ans she is a fellow traveller, and
in
> >> >lock
> >> >> >step.
> >> >>
> >> >> "fellow traveller"??? thats a useful expresion..
> >> >>
> >> >> IOW you are totally aware that the lady is NOT in fact a
scientologist
> >> >> and its just another pathetic attempt to smear using "guilt by association"
> >> >
> >> >From all my reading, she is freely travelling with them. For whatever purpose, she has made a
> >> >considered to affiliate with this Kriminal
Kult.
> >>
> >> now here come the capital letters and conspiracy theories..
> >>
> >> I dont know about my double standards but your obsessions are sure showing.. As I said
> >> ..anything to avoid facing the fact that ADHD is nothing remotely like diabetes..
> >
> >However, it is like chronic pain,
>
> Have you ever had chronic pain?

On three occasions in my life I had sufficient pain to want prescription medication, and was given
it by doctors. One was addictive, but, I did not get addicted, as I did not abuse it.

> you might change your mind rapidly.... there is no question of "forgetting" to take painkillers..

Irrelevant, since we are discussing the diagnosis. Pain, especially the degree of pain, is
subjective, and the doctor occasionally renders treatment based upon a patient's description of
their subjective symptomatology. Since this is clearly analogous to the issue of diagnosing ADHD,
for you to be consistent, you would have to oppose the use of any medicition for these patients.

Now, you may ask is this pain real? The answer is, absent some element of secondary gain, yes. My
firm often looks at claims of people who are alleging such a disability. We look to see how their
lives have been affected.

And, this is one of the elements of the diagnostic protocol for AH/HD. the comparisons are striking.

> >RSD, CFS, MCS, etc.
> >
> >And, NONE of those have clearly objective tests.
>
> sure... I would say its status is exactly that of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.

I have seen people incapacitated from CFS.
 
"CBI" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> jake <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> >
> >
> > >RSD, CFS, MCS, etc.
> > >
> > >And, NONE of those have clearly objective tests.
> >
> > sure... I would say its status is exactly that of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome.
>
> Fine.
>
> How about RSD, migraine, and schizophrenia? You keep dodging those
questions.

Although late stage RSD can have some objective findings.