road safety

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Cozmo, Feb 22, 2004.

  1. Cozmo

    Cozmo Guest

    hey everybody- i am a young man living in sydney australia who frequently cycles to work and to beaches-
    30minsto 1hr each way depending on location.

    i find everytime im out there im basically on my own, no cars will stop for you (when it is their
    turn to stop-especially taxis) and will regard you less than a pedestrian. i have been nearly run
    down-over-under, in a few words too many near misses. i try to stay to the footpath but i find that
    annoys the pedestrians and the police.

    as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in and
    out of traffic, next to buses etc.
     
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  2. On 22 Feb 2004 19:13:25 -0800, [email protected] (cozmo) wrote:

    >hey everybody- i am a young man living in sydney australia who frequently cycles to work and to beaches-
    >30minsto 1hr each way depending on location.
    >
    >i find everytime im out there im basically on my own, no cars will stop for you (when it is their
    >turn to stop-especially taxis) and will regard you less than a pedestrian. i have been nearly run
    >down-over-under, in a few words too many near misses. i try to stay to the footpath but i find that
    >annoys the pedestrians and the police.
    >

    Get off the footpath and onto the road.

    >as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    >are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in
    >and out of traffic, next to buses etc.

    Simple. They're aware of what's going on around them. When you're in the flow of traffic, you're
    just another vehicle. Think of yourself as a zero-displacement motorbike. that's all.

    =-Luigi
    go play in traffic!
     
  3. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (cozmo) writes:

    > as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    > are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in
    > and out of traffic, next to buses etc.

    They make a point of occupying their space. But it's an artistically measured and demonstratively
    occupied amount of space, so there's no confusion. Well, there shouldn't be any confusion, anyway.
    But there might be, so you've gotta be ready for that, too. Anyhow, you've got a right to certain
    parts of the road at certain times or during certain maneouvers, so you simply adopt that right, and
    the responsibility that goes along with it.

    Eric Sande can probably describe it better than me. Maybe he will.

    That "swerving in and out of traffic" by couriers is not as willy-nilly as it looks; it's very heads-
    up. If you observe carefully, you'll note they brake, they go, they stand up and look around ...
    everything is well-calculated, and done for a reason.

    But unless you're a courier, there's no compulsion to ride like one. A commuter riding to work only
    has one deadline to deal with. A person on his/her own time has no deadline at all. We non-couriers
    have the luxury of time to be more careful.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  4. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:44:39 -0800, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

    >In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
    >(cozmo) writes:
    >
    >> as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    >> are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in
    >> and out of traffic, next to buses etc.
    >
    >They make a point of occupying their space. But it's an artistically measured and demonstratively
    >occupied amount of space, so there's no confusion. Well, there shouldn't be any confusion, anyway.
    >But there might be, so you've gotta be ready for that, too. Anyhow, you've got a right to certain
    >parts of the road at certain times or during certain maneouvers, so you simply adopt that right,
    >and the responsibility that goes along with it.

    Uh, since when did young men have trouble navigating a bike in traffic? I remember my days and
    looking back I was naturally aggressive (enough) and daring (yikes) and there was really no problem
    navigating traffic.

    I would -never- do that now, but that's b/c I'm older and wiser.

    Wonder if this gentleman is riding in some really dense and aggressive traffic? In that case, gee,
    is there really any advice to give except the more you do it, the better you'll get at reading it?
    Or sheesh, take the subway? It may be possible that some traffic is just to risky for anyone to ride
    in (except the bike messenger types)...

    -B
     
  5. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Badger_South <[email protected]> writes:

    > Wonder if this gentleman is riding in some really dense and aggressive traffic?

    I wonder why wieners come in 12's, but hot dog buns come in 8's.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  6. Badger_South

    Badger_South Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 20:49:43 -0800, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Badger_South <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >> Wonder if this gentleman is riding in some really dense and aggressive traffic?
    >
    >I wonder why wieners come in 12's, but hot dog buns come in 8's.

    Well, b/c you normally get two burned wieners per BBQ, and the kids eat one without the b...

    Hey!

    Smarty pants...

    -B
     
  7. >Eric Sande can probably describe it better than me.

    >Maybe he will.

    Maybe he won't. I think you have it right, Tom.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  8. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Sun, 22 Feb 2004 19:44:39 -0800, [email protected] (Tom Keats) from
    wrote:

    >That "swerving in and out of traffic" by couriers is not as willy-nilly as it looks; it's very heads-
    >up. If you observe carefully, you'll note they brake, they go, they stand up and look around ...
    >everything is well-calculated, and done for a reason.
    >
    >But unless you're a courier, there's no compulsion to ride like one. A commuter riding to work only
    >has one deadline to deal with. A person on his/her own time has no deadline at all. We non-couriers
    >have the luxury of time to be more careful.

    I ride my fixie in traffic as a commuter, and I have to do a lot of the same things couriers do. You
    just can't ride a fixed gear in traffic and not be constantly alert, moving and evaluating, changing
    and undertaking various tactics and manouvers. It gets easy, though; it gets to be second nature.

    Today, I was riding at about 18 mph when a truck pulled in front of me and immediately braked. I
    mean, I was like 3 feet from his tailgate. I was able to emergency swerve to the left around him,
    and he got one nasty look as I went by. Skills like that can be taught, but the alertness can't.
    It's a habit you have to develop. And it's good to develop no matter how you ride.

    --
    [email protected]
    Faced with a choice, do both (given by Dieter Rot).
    22
     
  9. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Badger_South <[email protected]> writes:

    > Hey!
    >
    > Smarty pants...

    Well anyhow, the couriers simply are.

    And the traffic they successfully ride in (downtown core stuff) is their natural environment. It
    sure ain't mine, and I don't presume to have the same skills they do in that environment. They glide
    gracefully about in there like barn swallows, while I flutter & stumble like a gimped chicken.

    But that's okay for me, 'cuz I hate downtown. The blocks are too short, and there are too many
    traffic lights and jay walkers. AFAIC, one might as well walk. Actually, walking is the best way to
    navigate Vancouver's downtown.

    Anyhow, the OP seems to be impressed by the maneuvers of bike couriers. I'm just trying to make the
    point that that's not the only, nor necessarily the best style of riding to aspire to. But the
    couriers do demonstrate stuff to learn from.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  10. R15757

    R15757 Guest

    Tom Keats wrote in small part:

    << Actually, walking is the best way to navigate Vancouver's downtown. >>

    Tom, if that were true, there would be no bicycle couriers.

    Robert
     
  11. Zoot Katz

    Zoot Katz Guest

    22 Feb 2004 19:13:25 -0800,
    <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (cozmo) wrote:

    >as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    >are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in
    >and out of traffic, next to buses etc.

    You know what it is. You used the word twice. "Confidence"

    Find and read "Effective Cycling" by John Forester. That will get you started.
    --
    zk
     
  12. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (R15757) writes:
    > Tom Keats wrote in small part:
    >
    > << Actually, walking is the best way to navigate Vancouver's downtown. >>
    >
    > Tom, if that were true, there would be no bicycle couriers.

    Didn't say walking was the fastest way ;-)

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  13. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (cozmo) writes:
    > hey everybody- i am a young man living in sydney australia who frequently cycles to work and to
    > beaches-30minsto 1hr each way depending on location.
    >
    > i find everytime im out there im basically on my own, no cars will stop for you (when it is their
    > turn to stop-especially taxis) and will regard you less than a pedestrian. i have been nearly run
    > down-over-under, in a few words too many near misses. i try to stay to the footpath but i find
    > that annoys the pedestrians and the police.
    >
    > as i ride i see the bike couriers of the inner city going at it confidently and knowing that they
    > are confident professionals i wonder what their trick is to remain safe in all their swerving in
    > and out of traffic, next to buses etc.

    Hi again, I'm just friendlily wondering how it's going for you now? If you don't wanna talk, that's
    cool, too. No pressure, no strain. Just socialness.

    Those Sydney beaches must be a lovely view.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  14. As to the annoyance of pedestrians and police, I'm not sure about Australia, but here in the states,
    it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. Although they tend to look the other way in special
    cases (like the little girl with tassels hanging from her handlebars).

    The secret to the messenger's recognition is probably that they ride like they belong there. That is
    what made it easier for me. Again, I'm not sure how Australia sees the bike, but in most places it
    is considered a vehicle, albeit a slow moving one, and has all the rights and _responsibilities_ of
    any other vehicle on the road.

    "May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills!"

    Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

    Chris'Z Corner http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  15. Chris Zacho "The Wheelman" <[email protected]> wrote:
    : As to the annoyance of pedestrians and police, I'm not sure about Australia, but here in the
    : states, it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. Although they tend to look the other way
    : in special cases (like the little girl with tassels hanging from her handlebars).

    ohhhh, how i wish that were true but it's not. in quite a number of places it's legal to ride on the
    sidewalk if you abide by the same rules as a pedestrian. i would *LOVE* to be able to tell (actually
    i often do anyway) the moron who tells me to get onto the sidewalk that it's illegal to do so.

    eg, Idaho 49-721. Bicycles on Sidewalks

    3) A person operating a vehicle by human power, or operating a motorized wheelchair or an electric
    personal assistive mobility device upon and along a sidewalk, or across a highway upon and along
    a crosswalk, shall have all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same
    circumstances.

    the exception being downtown or anywhere they're explicitly prohibited. same is true for minnesota.

    Minnesota 169.222 subd 4 d)

    (d) A person operating a bicycle upon a sidewalk, or across a roadway or shoulder on a crosswalk,
    shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and shall give an audible signal when necessary
    before overtaking and passing any pedestrian. No person shall ride a bicycle upon a sidewalk
    within a business district unless permitted by local authorities. Local authorities may
    prohibit the operation of bicycles on any sidewalk or crosswalk under their jurisdiction.
    --
    david reuteler [email protected]
     
  16. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > As to the annoyance of pedestrians and police, I'm not sure about Australia, but here in the
    > states, it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. Although they tend to look the other way
    > in special cases (like the little girl with tassels hanging from her handlebars).

    Some places have no sidewalk rule, others have it only in business areas, others have a blanket ban.

    Some, even have a mandatory 'bike path' or 'sidepath' rule, and then turn a sidewalk into such a
    path. Apparently 'requiring' you to use the sidewalk.

    It depends.

    Pete
     
  17. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Chris Zacho
    "The Wheelman") says...
    > As to the annoyance of pedestrians and police, I'm not sure about Australia, but here in the
    > states, it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. Although they tend to look the other way
    > in special cases (like the little girl with tassels hanging from her handlebars).

    Actually, this varies, because it's based on city ordinances. There are no national laws regarding
    this, and probably no state ones either.

    ...

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  18. David Kerber <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Chris Zacho
    > "The Wheelman") says...
    > > As to the annoyance of pedestrians and police, I'm not sure about Australia, but here in the
    > > states, it's illegal to ride a bicycle on the sidewalk. Although they tend to look the other way
    > > in special cases (like the little girl with tassels hanging from her handlebars).
    >
    > Actually, this varies, because it's based on city ordinances. There are no national laws regarding
    > this, and probably no state ones either.
    >
    > ...

    In fact, in NSW it is illegal to ride on the footpath unless a)you are under 12 years old or
    b)accompanying an under 12 year old.

    That would probably explain the police's attitude.

    Get on the road dude, but learn the rules first.

    Cheers Allister
     
  19. On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 20:10:31 GMT, "Pete" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Some places have no sidewalk rule, others have it only in business areas, others have a
    >blanket ban.
    >
    >Some, even have a mandatory 'bike path' or 'sidepath' rule, and then turn a sidewalk into such a
    >path. Apparently 'requiring' you to use the sidewalk.

    And some base it on the size of the wheels/tires, making some recumbents and folders completely
    legal on sidewalks. Not that I want to ride there anymore than on a bike path.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
     
  20. On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:30:04 -0500, David Kerber
    <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote:

    >Actually, this varies, because it's based on city ordinances. There are no national laws regarding
    >this, and probably no state ones either.

    Some states do have laws. In most cases, the locals could probably overrule the state statute with
    more restrictive regs.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
     
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