Robust internal gear hubs

[Anthony DeLorenzo]

Hi All,

I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
commuter.

I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
casual bikes.

To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
it.

At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
future?

Regards,
Anthony

 

[[email protected]]

For a wide range geared touring bike, Rolhoff is the only game in town
for a single device solution.

 

[landotter]

On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

 

[Kinky Cowboy]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:22:44 -0000, Anthony DeLorenzo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
>current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
>should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
>future?
>

By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
Rohloff

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

 

[Dan Burkhart]

On Fri, 03 Aug 2007 17:22:44 -0000, Anthony DeLorenzo
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
>current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
>should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
>future?
>

By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
Rohloff

Kinky Cowboy*

*Batteries not included
May contain traces of nuts
Your milage may vary

Not to mention that chainrings and cassettes on a derailleur system will require much more frequent replacement with more expensive parts than the Rohloff ever will.

 

[Anthony DeLorenzo]

On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:

> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
> Rohloff

I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.

So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
$800-900.

Regards,
Anthony

 

[Chalo]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the

I am 6'8" tall and weigh close to 350 pounds at this time. I have
used several gearhubs on my bikes at body weights of 330 to over 400
pounds, and I have been an active cyclist all that time. Some of
these bikes have been regular transportation, and some of them have
been utility rides for carrying things.

The gearhubs now in my stable include SRAM Spectro 7, Shimano Nexus 7,
and a Rohloff Speedhub. My wife's bikes feature Sachs Pentasport 5
and a Rohloff Speedhub. Bikes that I spent some time with before
passing on to others used Sachs 7 and Shimano 4 gearhubs. Not one of
these gearhubs has broken outright, but they have not been entirely
without problems.

Because I had been warned by a shop owner that some of his customers'
Nexus 7 hubs developed problems related to high torque loads, I used
my Nexus 7 hubs only in 20" wheels, whose reduced diameter
proportionally diminishes gearbox loads. They feel draggier to me
than my other gearhubs, but they have been reliable. I understand
that Nexus 8 hubs have improved efficiency compared to Nexus 7 hubs.
One very nice feature of Nexus hubs is that all the shifting apparatus
is tucked inside the chainstays and dropouts, out of harm's way.

The Sachs and Sram 7-speed hubs in my bikes seem more rugged and freer-
running than the Shimano hubs. They have a wider overall gear range,
too-- with some of the larger steps between gears bordering on too big
for my taste. I once tore out an anti-rotation washer on one of these
hubs, which is the biggest mechanical issue I've had to date with any
gearhub. (When the axle spins, the hub bearings go out of
adjustment.) In that case, I had only one anti-spin washer in place,
because the thick aluminum dropouts of my bike didn't leave me room to
put one on each side (my usual arrangement). Since then, whenever I
have room for a washer on only one end of the axle, I have used a
special washer I machined from steel bar stock.

The SRAM 7 hub that I still have in service is in a 29" MTB wheel.
That's a worst case scenario for hub torque. Although I don't take my
29er off-road, I don't spare it any of the usual hardships of city
riding. I use 40-21 primary gearing, for a range of 32 to 97 gear
inches. So far, it has been boringly reliable in this application.

Note that the parts kit that comes with the SRAM Spectro 7 hub
contains only one anti-spin washer. I have heard that this serves the
role of a structural fuse to protect the gearbox from potential
overloads. I will still use two washers whenever I can. Spare anti-
spin washers and spare M10.5 axle nuts are cheap and readily
available; it's a good idea to have some extras set aside. (The nuts
strip out easily because of the interrupted thread on the flatted
axle.)

The SRAM P5 Cargo hub is the only gearhub that is explicitly rated for
the kind of load you are discussing. It has a slightly narrower
overall gear range than the regular P5 hub-- close to 2.5:1. I have
not used one, though, so I can't comment on it from experience.

The Rohloff Speedhub is a marvelous piece of equipment, but it's not
without its idiosyncrasies. Mine gives occasional false neutrals in
its problematic 8th gear-7th gear shift. None of my other gearhubs
have done that.

If you can make peace with a single speed for all other uses besides
touring, then I think you will probably be happy with a 7- or 8-speed
gearhub for touring. Exercise restraint in how tall you make your top
gear; there's little reason to go much taller than what you have on
your fixie. That will leave you plenty of low gears for coping with
heavy loads and unfavorable conditions.

A friend of mine who is half my size recently broke the axle on his
Sachs 3x7 hub. He was using it in a single speed MTB frame that had
been amateurishly widened to accept the new hub, and the misaligned
dropouts appear to have been the critical factor in the failure of his
hub. Check your dropout alignment before you put your new bike in
service, to avoid unnecessary problems.

Good Luck!

Chalo

 

[Anthony DeLorenzo]

On Aug 3, 12:16 pm, landotter <[email protected]> wrote:

> How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

I'm looking more at like a 7 or 8-speed hub, I would prefer a wider
range of gears for road touring.

My concern is that will any non-Rohloff internal gear hub actually be
able to handle the strain I can put on one, in terms of rider weight
and torque.

 

[NickP]

Just get the Rohloff hub. They last and last and don't break, and the
running costs are a lot less than a derailleur system. I have three of the
hubs, including one on a tandem. Rohloff claim to have never received one
back that had failed.

"Anthony DeLorenzo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
>> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
>> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
>> Rohloff
>
> I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
> frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
> cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
> no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
> a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.
>
> So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
> and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
> or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
> $800-900.
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>

 

[Anthony DeLorenzo]

On Aug 3, 2:09 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you can make peace with a single speed for all other uses besides
> touring, then I think you will probably be happy with a 7- or 8-speed
> gearhub for touring. Exercise restraint in how tall you make your top
> gear; there's little reason to go much taller than what you have on
> your fixie. That will leave you plenty of low gears for coping with
> heavy loads and unfavorable conditions.

Hi Chalo,

Thank you for the detailed reply, it's great to have first-hand
experience to draw on. You've encouraged me to take the plunge and try
one of these out. The advice about dropouts and spare anti-rotation
washers is well-noted, I'll be sure to check my frame and buy spare
washers.

In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM). Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

Regards,
Anthony

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per NickP:
> Rohloff claim to have never received one
>back that had failed.

They received one of mine a couple of years ago - leaking oil
through the old-style gasket.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[Tom Ace]

On Aug 3, 2:09 pm, Chalo <[email protected]> wrote:

> The SRAM P5 Cargo hub is the only gearhub that is explicitly rated for
> the kind of load you are discussing.

But the Rohloff is sold for tandem use, which is just as severe.
IIRC, the only differences between a tandem Speedhub and a plain
one are longer cables and flanges drilled for heavier gauge spokes.


> The Rohloff Speedhub is a marvelous piece of equipment, but it's not
> without its idiosyncrasies. Mine gives occasional false neutrals in
> its problematic 8th gear-7th gear shift. None of my other gearhubs
> have done that.

Interesting. I have never gotten what I'd call a false neutral
from mine (I mean where it stays in neutral like a Sturmey-Archer
can between 2 and 3). 7->8 can be a rough shift, sometimes with
a small jump (maybe 10 degrees of crank rotation) before catching,
but that isn't the kind of neutral that can hurt you.


Tom Ace

 

[Dorfus Dippintush]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony
>

There's some pictures of a frame modified for a Rohloff hub here.

http://www.hyperactive.oz.nf/Rohloff/Rohloff.htm

 

[Chalo]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
>
> In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
> and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
> depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM).

That's a good range for touring and load carrying. Since I have
gotten good results from a relatively similar 40-21 gear driven by a
190mm crank, and I weigh 100 lbs. more than you do, I think you are
unlikely to have problems related to excess gearbox torque.

> Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
> speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
> out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

I know the Sturmey Archer 8 is an all-new design, but the S-A Sprinter
7 was widely regarded as the weakest of the 7-speed hubs.

Chalo

 

[(PeteCresswell)]

Per Dorfus Dippintush:
>There's some pictures of a frame modified for a Rohloff hub here.
>
>http://www.hyperactive.oz.nf/Rohloff/Rohloff.htm

Just for those that aren't familiar with Rohloff installs:
there's nothing that actually *needs* tb Rohloff-specific on your
bike. The pix above show a frame where chain length adjustment
has been enabled via new dropouts... but it's not something
actually *required* to run a Rohloff hub - which it seems to me
like can be mounted on just about any bike. I've done them on
hard tails, and several different FS's with no modifications at
all.
--
PeteCresswell

 

[David L. Johnson]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?

As Chalo mentioned later in the thread, the big problem with some of
these is the anti-rotation system. I had a 7-speed Nexus on a tandem
that was used very casually, and my wife and I would regularly exert
enough force to unseat it, which screwed up all the gears. I then put
the hub on my rain commuter, and had the same problem.

The Rholoff has a huge boom to handle the rotation (internal hubs tend
to rotate backwards when force is applied in low gears). That is one
thing to be sure to have. I know it is a lot of money, but anything
else will be a huge compromise, in my experience. Or, you could go with
derailleurs. There is a reason they are still dominant.

--

David L. Johnson

A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
-- Paul Erdos

 

[David L. Johnson]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:

> In terms of gearing I'll likely try something like a 36x20 chainring
> and cog, which would put me in the range of 25 - 80 gear inches
> depending on the hub I use (Shimano or SRAM).

This will cause problems. Usually these hubs have minimum external gear
ratios well above this. You are putting much more torque on that hub
with that little gear than it was designed for.

> Oddly enough, the S-A 8-
> speed hub has direct drive in the lowest gear, which seems to rule it
> out unless I want to use a granny ring up front (I don't).

That might be to eliminate the counter-rotation problem. If so, it is a
good idea.

--

David L. Johnson

A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
-- Paul Erdos

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

landotter who? wrote:
> On Aug 3, 12:22 pm, Anthony DeLorenzo <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
>> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
>> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
>> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
>> commuter.
>>
> How 'bout a Sturmey Archer AW? Durable, classic, cheap. Just make sure
> the cable tension is perfect so you don't slip out of gear.

Trolling for Jobst?
<http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/sturmey-archer.html>

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Tom \Johnny Sunset\ Sherman]

Anthony DeLorenzo wrote:
> On Aug 3, 1:02 pm, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> By the time you've bought derailleurs with accompanying shifters, got
>> a triple chainset instead of a modest single, plus a decent cassette
>> and corresponding hub, you're quite a long way towards the cost of a
>> Rohloff
>
> I totally agree if I were starting from scratch, but I have a good
> frame and lots of parts lying around right now for this bike, so the
> cost to build it with a derailleur setup is pretty minimal. Basically,
> no matter what route I go, the only things I need to actually buy are
> a crank, bottom bracket, rear hub and spokes.
>
> So, I'm looking at the difference between a non-Rohloff internal hub
> and a decent quality rear hub, maybe Shimano XT, which is about $150
> or so. The difference between either option and a Rohloff is more like
> $800-900.

You CAN NOT take the money with you when you die. Life is too short to
ride a less than satisfactory bicycle. If the Rohloff is what will suit
your needs the best, just buy it unless the financial hardship would be
so great you could not afford to eat.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On Aug 3, 10:22 am, Anthony DeLorenzo <[email protected]>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm really keen to use an internally-geared hub on a touring bike I am
> building up. I like (need?) to have a strong, non-dished rear wheel
> and I also prefer to not fuss with derailleurs. This will be my only
> multi-geared bike, my other rides are a singlespeed MTB and a fixie
> commuter.
>
> I have been researching various hub models on the internet and I am
> getting the sense that, other than Rohloff, nothing on the market can
> really handle anything other than light duty typical of comfort or
> casual bikes.
>
> To put this into perspective, I am 6'6", 250+ lbs and, although I ride
> smoothly, can apply a lot of power to the pedals when I want to. Throw
> on some cargo, and my habit of dashing off down the odd fire road or
> stretch of singletrack, and I wonder if one of these hubs could handle
> it.
>
> At 4-5 times the cost I just can't afford a Rohloff. Are any of the
> current offerings from S-A, Shimano or SRAM suitable for my needs, or
> should I stick to a derailleur and keep saving for a Rohloff in the
> future?
>
> Regards,
> Anthony

I'm the happy owner of a Nexus8 that I used to convert my first
mountain bike (a 1985 Peugeot Orient Express, purchased when I was in
the 7th grade) to a cruiser, with North Road bars, a sprung Brooks
saddle, cork grips and a Wald basket up front. I weigh 230, but
usually ride with a backpack with work clothes and a 2L camelbak. I've
got it geared 42-19 for something like a 35-85" range. I've got a few
steep climbs each way on my commute, and my only complaint is its
weight. When stringing up the wheel, that is. My arm got tired holding
the thing up.

For your purposes, a Nexus8 will work if you don't mind spinning out
your big gear on downhills pretty early, or if you don't need a low-
low gear. For a wider gear range, then either get a Rohloff, or use a
double crank, two masterlinks and a spare bit of chain. The latter
option is cheaper, but obviously, you have to stop and get your hands
dirty to switch ranges, and chainline gets trickier.