Rolf vector pro blew up

[Callistus Valerius]

Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it blew
up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and I only put
about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other wheels. They were only
trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed a special tool to do it. I
would take them out occasionally, they were true, but I noticed that last
time I rode on them, I was hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep
hills. Thinking, they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took
them off and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange
had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely. You can see the
threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where the flange broke off.
I'm an open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What would cause
this?

 

[[email protected]]

Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it blew
> up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and I only put
> about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other wheels. They were only
> trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed a special tool to do it. I
> would take them out occasionally, they were true, but I noticed that last
> time I rode on them, I was hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep
> hills. Thinking, they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took
> them off and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange
> had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely. You can see the
> threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where the flange broke off.
> I'm an open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What would cause
> this?

Defective hub shell material? In my experience Trek fixes those under
warranty.

 

[[email protected]]

Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:

> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
> blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and
> I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other
> wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed
> a special tool to do it. I would take them out occasionally, they
> were true, but I noticed that last time I rode on them, I was
> hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep hills. Thinking,
> they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took them off
> and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of
> the flange had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
> You can see the threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where
> the flange broke off. I'm an open pro guy now, but this really
> freaked me out. What would cause this?

What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Ozark Bicycle]

[email protected] wrote:
> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
> > blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and
> > I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other
> > wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed
> > a special tool to do it. I would take them out occasionally, they
> > were true, but I noticed that last time I rode on them, I was
> > hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep hills. Thinking,
> > they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took them off
> > and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
> > the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of
> > the flange had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
> > You can see the threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where
> > the flange broke off. I'm an open pro guy now, but this really
> > freaked me out. What would cause this?
>
> What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
>

Now, we can only hope for the re-interrment of a bad idea.

 

[jim beam]

Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it blew
> up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and I only put
> about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other wheels. They were only
> trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed a special tool to do it. I
> would take them out occasionally, they were true, but I noticed that last
> time I rode on them, I was hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep
> hills. Thinking, they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took
> them off and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange
> had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely. You can see the
> threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where the flange broke off.
> I'm an open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What would cause
> this?
>
>
fatigue. the flange fatigued to a level where the crack length was near
critical, and some element of life in your closet was able to surpass
the material's ability to hang on. once critical is exceeded, failure
is instantaneous.

it's either something to do with a defective hub shell or the hub was
damaged in some way that initiated the fatigue cracking. either way,
you should have a go at getting the hub replaced under warranty - it's
clearly something that should not happen.

 

[jim beam]

[email protected] wrote:
> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
>> blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and
>> I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other
>> wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed
>> a special tool to do it. I would take them out occasionally, they
>> were true, but I noticed that last time I rode on them, I was
>> hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep hills. Thinking,
>> they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took them off
>> and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
>> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of
>> the flange had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
>> You can see the threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where
>> the flange broke off. I'm an open pro guy now, but this really
>> freaked me out. What would cause this?
>
> What do you expect?

that's ignorant and unhelpful. but what else would we expect?

> 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.

do the math or shut up jobst - prove the loading differential and
discuss effect on fatigue. better yet, describe exactly how "stress
relief" eliminates fatigue from spokes [with no endurance limit] but not
hubs.

 

[Bruce Gilbert]

"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> >> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
> >> blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and
> >> I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other
> >> wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed
> >> a special tool to do it. I would take them out occasionally, they
> >> were true, but I noticed that last time I rode on them, I was
> >> hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep hills. Thinking,
> >> they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took them off
> >> and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
> >> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of
> >> the flange had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
> >> You can see the threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where
> >> the flange broke off. I'm an open pro guy now, but this really
> >> freaked me out. What would cause this?
> >
> > What do you expect?
>
> that's ignorant and unhelpful. but what else would we expect?
>
> > 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> > failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> > localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> > patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> > Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
>
> do the math or shut up jobst - prove the loading differential and
> discuss effect on fatigue. better yet, describe exactly how "stress
> relief" eliminates fatigue from spokes [with no endurance limit] but not
> hubs.

I have always heard how the Vector Pros had a very high tension on the
spokes. Could this be contributory to the failure. Or, did the metal simply
fatigue over time on its own? Just a simple observation here, but I see very
few of those old Vector Pros on rides anymore. Where have all the old wheels
gone?

Bruce

 

[Art Harris]

Callistus Valerius wrote:
> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it blew
> up in the closet.
>
> A few months later I heard a bang in
> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange
> had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
>
> I'm an open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What would cause
> this?

"Blew up" is a bit over dramatic. It was a simple flange failure.
Happened to me a few years ago with an Ultegra rear freehub (36 spoke,
3x wheel). Shimano replaced the hub under warranty. Mine failed while
sitting in the basement.

Art Harris

 

[Callistus Valerius]

> "Blew up" is a bit over dramatic. It was a simple flange failure.
> Happened to me a few years ago with an Ultegra rear freehub (36 spoke,
> 3x wheel). Shimano replaced the hub under warranty. Mine failed while
> sitting in the basement.
>
> Art Harris
-------------
I heard a boom in the closet, normally things don't go boom in my
closets anyway.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 12:38:26 +0000, Bruce Gilbert wrote:

> Just a simple observation here, but I see very
> few of those old Vector Pros on rides anymore. Where have all the old wheels
> gone?

Yeah, I've wondered that myself. There must be an elephant burial ground
somewhere full of old Rolfs, Spinnergys, and other high-priced wheels that
suddenly become worthless when the new fad comes out. Meanwhile, _my_ old
wheels are still working fine.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |

 

[[email protected]]

Bruce Gilbert writes:

>>>> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
>>>> blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000,
>>>> and I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to
>>>> other wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as
>>>> you needed a special tool to do it. I would take them out
>>>> occasionally, they were true, but I noticed that last time I rode
>>>> on them, I was hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep
>>>> hills. Thinking, they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170),
>>>> so I took them off and stuck them in the closet. A few months
>>>> later I heard a bang in the closet, and went to investigate. And
>>>> saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange had blown off, with two
>>>> undamaged spokes hanging freely. You can see the threads of the
>>>> freehub, I guess you call it, where the flange broke off. I'm an
>>>> open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What would
>>>> cause this?

>>> What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
>>> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
>>> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented
>>> and patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon
>>> over... until Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.

>> that's ignorant and unhelpful. but what else would we expect?

>> do the math or shut up jobst - prove the loading differential and
>> discuss effect on fatigue. better yet, describe exactly how
>> "stress relief" eliminates fatigue from spokes [with no endurance
>> limit] but not hubs.

> I have always heard how the Vector Pros had a very high tension on
> the spokes. Could this be contributory to the failure. Or, did the
> metal simply fatigue over time on its own? Just a simple observation
> here, but I see very few of those old Vector Pros on rides anymore.
> Where have all the old wheels gone?

I'm not sure whether they all failed one way or another, but many of
them were someone's latest fad, and that isn't the fad right now.
Locally, Foothill Expressway is the parade ground for equipment fads
and Rolf wheels are not IN but various Mavic models are. It seems
that is partly because they can be recognized while moving, something
that Rolf wheels cannot do. The Spinergy cucumber slicers are gone
because they failed or gave indication of a death rattle (for loss of
tension).

Jobst Brandt

 

[[email protected]]

Art Harris writes:

>> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
>> blew up in the closet.

>> A few months later I heard a bang in the closet, and went to
>> investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of the flange had blown off,
>> with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.

>> I'm an open pro guy now, but this really freaked me out. What
>> would cause this?

> "Blew up" is a bit over dramatic. It was a simple flange failure.
> Happened to me a few years ago with an Ultegra rear freehub (36
> spoke, 3x wheel). Shimano replaced the hub under warranty. Mine
> failed while sitting in the basement.

So you didn't hear it near by. I think the term "blew up" fits the
event both physically and acoustically from failures have experienced.

Jobst Brandt

 

[jim beam]

Bruce Gilbert wrote:
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>> Had a very mysterious thing happen to my rear Rolf Vector Pro, it
>>>> blew up in the closet. They came with my Trek in the year 2000, and
>>>> I only put about 4000 miles on them, before I switched to other
>>>> wheels. They were only trued once, by the bike shop, as you needed
>>>> a special tool to do it. I would take them out occasionally, they
>>>> were true, but I noticed that last time I rode on them, I was
>>>> hearing some spoke noise, while going up steep hills. Thinking,
>>>> they're just ain't enough spokes (I weigh 170), so I took them off
>>>> and stuck them in the closet. A few months later I heard a bang in
>>>> the closet, and went to investigate. And saw that 2 inch hunk of
>>>> the flange had blown off, with two undamaged spokes hanging freely.
>>>> You can see the threads of the freehub, I guess you call it, where
>>>> the flange broke off. I'm an open pro guy now, but this really
>>>> freaked me out. What would cause this?
>>> What do you expect?
>> that's ignorant and unhelpful. but what else would we expect?
>>
>>> 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
>>> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
>>> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
>>> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
>>> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
>> do the math or shut up jobst - prove the loading differential and
>> discuss effect on fatigue. better yet, describe exactly how "stress
>> relief" eliminates fatigue from spokes [with no endurance limit] but not
>> hubs.
>
> I have always heard how the Vector Pros had a very high tension on the
> spokes. Could this be contributory to the failure. Or, did the metal simply
> fatigue over time on its own? Just a simple observation here, but I see very
> few of those old Vector Pros on rides anymore. Where have all the old wheels
> gone?
>
> Bruce
>
>
no metal fatigues on its own - it's a function of stress cycling. high
spoke tension can indeed accelerate fatigue, but that is not necessarily
the whole picture. if the hub spontaneously fails, it's clearly
defective and needs warranty.

for the future, while spokes need to have adequate tension to not go
slack in use, increasing tension above that level serves no purpose.
static wheel strength does not increase with increasing spoke tension,
contrary to the supposition of certain individuals. fatigue wheel
strength /decreases/ with increasing spoke tension. bike shops often,
unfortunately having read a certain book, are under the false impression
that spoke tension needs to be "as high as the rim can bear", and they
"help" the wheel by increasing tension above factory spec. the op may
be a victim of this unfortunate situation.

 

[Frank Drackman]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
><SNIP>


> What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
>

Did you really intend to sound like a total jerk?

 

[[email protected]]

On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 14:40:25 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> "Blew up" is a bit over dramatic. It was a simple flange failure.
>> Happened to me a few years ago with an Ultegra rear freehub (36 spoke,
>> 3x wheel). Shimano replaced the hub under warranty. Mine failed while
>> sitting in the basement.
>>
>> Art Harris
>-------------
> I heard a boom in the closet, normally things don't go boom in my
>closets anyway.

Dear Cal,

How I long to live your normal life!

Years ago, a note under the windshield wiper of my hatchback asked me
to contact the university police as soon as possible.

When I asked the cop at the desk what the problem was, he stared at me
in surprise and then asked politely whether I'd noticed my hatchback's
back window.

No, I admitted, I hadn't walked around my car to look at the back.

He'd been cruising the parking lot when there was a boom and my back
window burst, blowing all the safety glass out of the frame.

A can of flat-fix had exploded after rolling around too much against
some tools and then getting too hot in the sun.

I decided to focus on how lucky I am. It was annoying to have to
replace the back hatch, but it would have been much worse if I'd been
in the car.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Mark Hickey]

"Frank Drackman" <[email protected]> wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
>><SNIP>
>
>> What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
>> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
>> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
>> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
>> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
>
>Did you really intend to sound like a total jerk?

I don't detect any "jerkiness" in Jobst's reply above. He's pointing
out very basic physical limitations to a design that had problems a
century ago, and still has problems today.

I wish there were more discussions like that in the bike shops around
the country (if only because it would keep Jobst from talking about
politics). ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame

 

[Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman]

Frank Drackman wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
> ><SNIP>
>
>
> > What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> > failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> > localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> > patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> > Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
> >
>
> Did you really intend to sound like a total jerk?

A real jerk is someone who mentions his unusual recumbents when upright
bicycles are being discussed.

[TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE! WOOHOO!]

I want to take a moment to hi-jack this thread and point out that I own
several exotic recumbents because...

IT'S ALL ABOUT ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!

[Exit facetious mode]

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
I am supporting cannibalism by eating more nuts.

 

[peter]

Mark Hickey wrote:
> "Frank Drackman" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> ><[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> Callistus Valerius <[email protected]> writes:
> >><SNIP>
> >
> >> What do you expect? 36-spoke wheels, radially spoked, have flange
> >> failures and a Rolf wheel is twice as bad, stress being more
> >> localized. The whole concept is a silly idea that was invented and
> >> patented by Lovelace in 1890. Although the fad was soon over... until
> >> Rolf Dietrich exhumed it for a replay.
> >
> >Did you really intend to sound like a total jerk?
>
> I don't detect any "jerkiness" in Jobst's reply above. He's pointing
> out very basic physical limitations to a design that had problems a
> century ago, and still has problems today.
>
> I wish there were more discussions like that in the bike shops around
> the country (if only because it would keep Jobst from talking about
> politics). ;-)

Unfortunately cyclists seem very reluctant to hear that message. I was
riding up Mt. Diablo today with someone who recently had a very similar
failure of his Vector Pro wheel. He was looking for a source for
either a replacement hub or a new wheel. I suggested going with a more
traditional wheel design, but he insisted that he had now been
"spoiled" by the "high-tech" ones and that he didn't think he could go
back. When asked about the nature of the advantage, he first cited
weight and I pointed out that similar weights could be achieved with
reasonable spoke counts (say 32) and good quality components. Then he
switched to the sealed bearings/low maintenance and I indicated that
that was also not exclusive to a particular type of wheel. He then
headed off to talk with someone who would be more sympathetic to his
plight.

When even those who have already had a bad experience are so willing
and eager to come back for more of the same, I can see why bike shop
owners/managers would decide that it's easier to just sell them what
they ask for rather than try to change their minds.

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 1 Nov 2006 18:43:52 -0800, "peter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Vector Pro wheel. He was looking for a source for
>either a replacement hub or a new wheel. I suggested going with a more
>traditional wheel design, but he insisted that he had now been
>"spoiled" by the "high-tech" ones and that he didn't think he could go
>back. When asked about the nature of the advantage, he first cited
>weight and I pointed out that similar weights could be achieved with
>reasonable spoke counts (say 32) and good quality components.

What rims and hubs and spokes?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[peter]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> On 1 Nov 2006 18:43:52 -0800, "peter" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Vector Pro wheel. He was looking for a source for
> >either a replacement hub or a new wheel. I suggested going with a more
> >traditional wheel design, but he insisted that he had now been
> >"spoiled" by the "high-tech" ones and that he didn't think he could go
> >back. When asked about the nature of the advantage, he first cited
> >weight and I pointed out that similar weights could be achieved with
> >reasonable spoke counts (say 32) and good quality components.
>
> What rims and hubs and spokes?

There's a list of wheel weights at:
http://www.tc-homes.com/bike/features/wheels/cover.htm
with several examples of 32 spoke wheels that are lighter than Vector
Pros.
I'd also mention that the person I was talking to does not race and
didn't indicate any concern about aerodynamics.