Roundabout Woes

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by Caher, Jun 4, 2004.

  1. Caher

    Caher Guest

    Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case o
    path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can ge
    around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with th
    motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lan
    road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lan
    whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came aroun
    suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into th
    first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I manage
    to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highwa
    Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cyclin
    correctly. Many thanks Caher


    -
     
    Tags:


  2. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    On 4/6/04 10:45 am, in article [email protected],
    "Caher" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    > whilst turning to the right – or the second exit.


    What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are going right you
    should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane. Straight on, pick and mix.


    > A motorist came around
    > suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
    > first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse.


    Was he coming from your right, ie already on the roundabout?


    > I managed
    > to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway
    > Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
    > correctly. Many thanks Caher.


    Potentially bad road positioning but without further clarification one
    cannot be sure. Your road position may have led him to believe that you were
    going left, not right so he was moderately justified in being miffed.

    Moral:

    1. road positioning should indicate what you are doing.
    2. Clear and unambiguous signals should indicate what you are doing.

    1 and 2 should send the same messages.

    ...d
     
  3. On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 09:45:40 GMT, Caher wrote:

    > Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    > whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came around
    > suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
    > first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed
    > to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway
    > Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
    > correctly. Many thanks Caher.


    I can't see that you were doing anything wrong (provided you didn't have to
    give way to him when you were entering the roundabout).

    Seems to me he was annoyed at having to slow down for a cyclist.
    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
    nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk
     
  4. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Caher wrote:

    > Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    > whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came around
    > suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
    > first exit I was cycling past.


    Let me get this straight - there are three roads entering this
    roundabout at 6, 10 and 2 o'lock on a clock face (approximately), you
    went in at six o'clock and wanted to leave at 2 o'clock, and they came
    in at 2 o'clock and tried to leave at 10 o'clock?

    The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the correct lane to turn
    right (unless there were bizarre local road markings stating otherwise).
    However:

    If you were on the roundabout before he entered, and he simply caught
    you up; case closed - he was being an impatient twit.

    If you and he entered at the same time and he caught up with you, then
    ditto.

    If he entered first and you failed to give way to traffic already on the
    roundabout, thus causing him to brake (having miscalculated the speed he
    was coming round?) then I think you may have been a little careless, and
    he would be justified in using his horn to warn you of his presence
    (although not, of course, as a rebuke).

    Between the latter two cases, of course, there is a grey area dividing
    the point where you did/didn't give way to traffic already on the
    roundabout.

    R.
     
  5. Caher wrote:
    > Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on=


    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get=20
    > around town and to work. However I=92ve now come into conflict with the=


    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    >=20

    Let's be clear here - do you mean the left- or right-hand lane? Which
    lane would you have used for that manouevre in a car?

    > whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.


    How many exits, at what angles? You're saying that the second exit - the
    one you wanted - was more than 180deg around the roundabout?

    > A motorist came around suddenly from the oncoming direction


    What - the wrong way around the roundabout?!

    > and tried to hoot his way into the first exit I was cycling past.


    Were you signalling right from joining the roundabout until the first
    exit? You should have been.

    > He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed to catch him up for further
    > clarification. Have I forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he
    > being obnoxious or was I actually cycling correctly. Many thanks
    > Caher.


    Hard to tell without knowing the exact situation.

    For a typical dual-lane entrance to a roundabout where I want an exit
    right of straight ahead, where there are no marking arrows, I would
    attempt to enter the roundabout either in the right-hand lane, or more
    probably towards the right of the left-hand lane.

    I would signal right from before entering the roundabout until the exit
    before mine to make it clear I was continuing round. If the roundabout
    has sufficient room, I would probably position myself to allow motorists
    taking earlier exits to overtake me on the left and allow those taking
    my exit or later exits to overtake on the right.

    If that's not safe (fast or narrow roundabouts) I would probably ride in
    the middle of the left lane and signal right as described above.

    Be prominent and confident, and make it obvious what you're doing. Most
    motorists will respect that and give you room and time even if they
    don't like it. You'll never eliminate idiots, though...

    Get a copy of Cyclecraft and the HC.

    --=20
    Mark.
     
  6. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > The laning is somewhat immaterial - you were in the correct lane to turn
    > right (unless there were bizarre local road markings stating otherwise).


    Clarification: I assumed that "outside" meant "right-hand" as applied to
    a two-lane road, but reading Mssr Martin's nigh-simultaneous reply, I
    realise it could also mean "left-hand" :) when applied to a roundabout.

    If you're turning right at a roundabout, in the absence of bizarre local
    road markings stating otherwise [1], you should be in the right-hand
    lane, as David said.

    R.

    [1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer cycle lanes around
    the periphery of a roundabout with a give-way to cross every entrance
    and exit. Avoid these like the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle lanes.
     
  7. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Richard wrote:

    > [1] Unless they're one of those stupid ****ing killer cycle lanes around
    > the periphery of a roundabout with a give-way to cross every entrance
    > and exit. Avoid these like the veritable plague. Stick to vehicle
    > lanes.


    I'm so in form today I'm replying to my own posts twice, dammit.

    Stick to MOTOR vehicle lanes.
     
  8. Kit Wolf

    Kit Wolf Guest

    On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Caher wrote:

    > Hi all, I=92ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I=92ve now come into conflict with the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    > whilst turning to the right =96 or the second exit.


    This is fine - currently rules 62 & 163 www.highwaycode.gov.uk. You should
    have been signalling to the right to show that you were not going to turn
    off at the 1st exit.

    You can also take the same route as you would when in a car - you don't
    have to keep to the left.

    > A motorist came around
    > suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into the
    > first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I managed
    > to catch him up for further clarification.


    I wouldn't have gone back for more?!

    > Have I forgotten the Highway
    > Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
    > correctly.


    If you don't have it already, you may like to get 'Cyclecraft'

    http://www.lesberries.co.uk/ccraft/ccraft.htm

    which gives more advice on roundabouts.

    Kit
     
  9. "Caher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:8xXvc.78657$r14[email protected]
    > Hi all, I've recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case

    on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I've now come into conflict with

    the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual

    lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside

    lane
    > whilst turning to the right - or the second exit. A motorist came

    around
    > suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way into

    the
    > first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of abuse. I

    managed
    > to catch him up for further clarification. Have I forgotten the

    Highway
    > Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was I actually cycling
    > correctly. Many thanks Caher.
    >

    There are two separate issues here: roundabouts, and dealing with
    honking motorists.

    The roundabout rules for cyclists in the Highway Code are quite
    amusing really.

    Rule 61 says that the correct procedure for roundabouts is described
    in rules 160-166. This is a strong hint that what they go on to say
    in rule 62 is NOT the correct procedure.

    Rule 62 says "You may feel safer either keeping to the left on the
    roundabout, or dismounting and walking..."

    Note that is does NOT say that you WILL be safer, and the previous
    rule has strongly implied that it is not a "correct procedure".

    There really is no alternative but to get right out in the middle,
    staying well away from the outside edge unless you are leaving at the
    very first exit.

    Like sking, surfing, or whatever, it feels good if you can do this
    well, but there is no alternative to practice. Start on little mini
    roundabouts with light traffic, and work up gradually to the real
    monsters on busy rural trunk roads. At least you are on a roundabout
    for only a short time.

    There's a good book on riding among other traffic, "Cyclecraft" by
    John Franklin. I would say it's worth buying, not just reading.

    As for honking and hooting, about all you can do is ignore it. Hoots
    might be somebody trying to be helpful - once, with me, it was a
    motorist trying to tell my that my briefcase was about to fall off my
    back rack. It's good to learn a bit of animal psychology, for
    example when to look at motorists, and when not to, but that's not
    among the basics that you have to learn immediately.

    Jeremy Parker
     
  10. Caher

    Caher Guest

    I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I ha
    already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south
    He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on th
    way to the south. He argued that I should have made my way into the bus
    inside then try to get back out onto the outside to turn off. This woul
    be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way aroun
    signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out. If I was driving I d
    not try to overtake someone already on the roundabout


    -
     
  11. Simon Brooke

    Simon Brooke Guest

    in message <[email protected]>, Caher
    ('[email protected]') wrote:

    > Hi all, I’ve recently moved from the world of off-road (in my case on
    > path) to a road bike, which is a revelation for the speed I can get
    > around town and to work. However I’ve now come into conflict with the
    > motorist. This morning whilst on my way to work I was in a dual lane
    > road and on my approach to a roundabout I stayed in the outside lane
    > whilst turning to the right – or the second exit. A motorist came
    > around suddenly from the oncoming direction and tried to hoot his way
    > into the first exit I was cycling past. He game me a mouthful of
    > abuse. I managed to catch him up for further clarification. Have I
    > forgotten the Highway Code for cyclists, was he being obnoxious or was
    > I actually cycling correctly.


    He was obnoxious, but you should have gone into the inside lane.

    --
    [email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

    ;; ... exposing the violence incoherent in the system...
     
  12. Richard

    Richard Guest

    Caher wrote:

    > I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
    > already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
    > He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the
    > way to the south.


    You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
    the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
    trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...
     
  13. On Fri, 04 Jun 2004 12:01:54 GMT, Caher wrote:

    > I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
    > already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
    > He wanted to get off at the west.


    You're not in Britain, are you?
    --
    Michael MacClancy
    Random putdown - "I've just learned about his illness. Let's hope it's
    nothing trivial." - Irvin S. Cobb
    www.macclancy.demon.co.uk
    www.macclancy.co.uk
     
  14. "Caher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > I was already on the roundabout. He came from the south side I had
    > already got on from the east. I was signalling to come off at the south.
    > He wanted to get off at the west. I was travelling past the west on the
    > way to the south. He argued that I should have made my way into the busy
    > inside then try to get back out onto the outside to turn off. This would
    > be stupid. It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around

    .......

    Going all the way round a roundabout on the outside is just begging to be made
    into roadkill!
     
  15. "Richard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
    > the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
    > trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...


    This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he may have been going the
    wrong way round the roundabout!
     
  16. Clive George

    Clive George Guest

    "Caher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    > It’s far safer to stay on the outside all the way around
    > signalling as I go rather than weaving in and out.


    Not necessarily so. Counterintuitive to many people, but hiding on the
    left/outside of the roundabout puts you in danger.

    (obviously I'm taking your 'weaving in and out' to mean 'using the correct
    lane, that is the same one as you would in a car' here)

    cheers,
    clive
     
  17. David Martin

    David Martin Guest

    On 4/6/04 1:13 pm, in article [email protected], "Adrian
    Boliston" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "Richard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >> You come on from the east, want to get off at the south, and travel past
    >> the west? Either you're mixing up your wests and easts, or you're
    >> trying to use the gravitational slingshot approach to build up speed...

    >
    > This got me thinking as well! At first it sounded like he may have been going
    > the
    > wrong way round the roundabout!


    Having been on the wrong side of the road 'because thats where the cycle
    lane is'?

    ...d
     
  18. davek

    davek Guest

    Caher:
    > I was travelling past the west on the
    > way to the south.


    You were travelling round the roundabout in an anticlockwise direction?

    That's *definitely* wrong.

    d.
     
  19. David Martin wrote:

    > What do you mean by outside? LH or RH lane? If you are going right you
    > should be in the RH lane. Left, LH lane. Straight on, pick and mix.


    No...cyclists and drivers of large vehicles are allowed to use the
    outside all the way around, according to the HC. Personally I think
    it's more risky.
     
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