Routine method of estimating FT.

[Alex Simmons]

Sounds to me like you have been testing ("training is testing, testing is training").

Well that's what I thought but it's discussions like this and the odd comment from power using mates ("have you tested lately?") which make you wonder.

Small correction: I track 20min, 10min & 5 min MMPower/weight ratios (not just MMP) on one chart (loosely titled Aerobic MMP/W) and 1min, 30 sec & 10 sec MMP/W ratios on another (loosely titled Anaerobic MMP/W). With the knowlege that each 4 week block contains max/near max efforts somewhere, it consider this to be a pretty decent guide to progress.

I can quickly see whether or not I'm headed in the right direction and if changes are needed given the demands of the races I am targetting (pursuit/points/crits all < 1hr).

BTW - Only one these MMP/W (10 sec) is not at or better than PB levels. This block so far I am at 2nd best ever 10 sec P/W ratio. The 10 sec PB was set in the previous 4 week block. I have one more day of this 4 week block left, which is sprint work at the track, so maybe I can find that extra 60-70 watts! Nice to have that bit of extra incentive in mind. They will have to be a couple of absolutely ball tearing standing starts I think!

 

[RipVanCommittee]

As I see it, the problem with using the "95% of 20 min power" rule is that, due to intraindividual differences in anaerobic capacity, it isn't any more accurate than other methods that don't require formal testing...in which case, why bother doing a formal test?

I would imagine the "95% part" of this equation would be pretty easy to adjust per individual. Am I the only one here who's done a 10 mile and a 40K tt within a short period?? My 40K power was 97% of my 10 miler, so I simply use 20MPx.97 to determine my power levels. It seems to work pretty well for me.

 

[peterpen]

[dons flame-proof suit]
I determine my FT via a blood lactate test every 3 - 4 months.

If 5mp/1.2 continues to produce a similar number (it has during the past 6 months,) I may at some point switch to that method. Less expensive and more convenient, not to mention au courant.

 

[frenchyge]

[dons flame-proof suit]
I determine my FT via a blood lactate test every 3 - 4 months.

Heh. Out of curiosity, what lactate value do you use to determine it? Or do you use a deflection point, or some other method?

 

[peterpen]

Heh. Out of curiosity, what lactate value do you use to determine it? Or do you use a deflection point, or some other method?

A deflection point, which was 4 mmol/ l at the first test and 4.1 mmol/ l at the second. To be clear, I don't actually perform the test myself, it's done as part of a season training package I purchased from UC Davis.

 

[WarrenG]

A deflection point, which was 4 mmol/ l at the first test and 4.1 mmol/ l at the second. To be clear, I don't actually perform the test myself, it's done as part of a season training package I purchased from UC Davis.

Aha! A smart rider.

Did you find that your HR was about the same for both tests at the 4mmol point? If your HR is fairly consistent you can use your power at that HR as a decent estimation of changes in your power at 4mmol.

If you can, ask to continue the test one power step beyond your 4mmol level. In this way you can learn some things about your ability above 4mmol-espcially as you get closer to your planned fitness peaks.

 

[frenchyge]

Aha! A smart rider.

Sure, you say that now. But what if he decides to switch to the au courant method?

If 5mp/1.2 continues to produce a similar number (it has during the past 6 months,) I may at some point switch to that method. Less expensive and more convenient, not to mention au courant.

 

[WarrenG]

Sure, you say that now. But what if he decides to switch to the au courant method?

Then he'll be measuring something different from what he's measuring now. That they are similar now doesn't mean they will always be similar or should be similar. The similarity is a result of the training being done.

5mp, that's 5-minute maximum power, right? Divided by 1.2 would overestimate my power at 4mmol/l by around 30-40 watts. 1.35 to 1.4 is about where it is right now.

I don't target a power level for my VO2max intervals based on my power at some other level of intensity. The target is around the most I can do for the duration.

 

[frenchyge]

5mp, that's 5-minute maximum power, right? Divided by 1.2 would overestimate my power at 4mmol/l by around 30-40 watts. 1.35 to 1.4 is about where it is right now.

Same here, but that must be what's working for him at the moment.

 

[Spunout]

I don't target a power level for my VO2max intervals based on my power at some other level of intensity. The target is around the most I can do for the duration.

When it comes down to this, this is what it is all about. I have an athlete without HRM or Power. We could work on RPE, but I just say go as hard as you can for the work period..and it works pretty well. Time will tell. Of course, he gets a different program compared to power users.

 

[peterpen]

Aha! A smart rider.
Did you find that your HR was about the same for both tests at the 4mmol point? If your HR is fairly consistent you can use your power at that HR as a decent estimation of changes in your power at 4mmol.
If you can, ask to continue the test one power step beyond your 4mmol level. In this way you can learn some things about your ability above 4mmol-espcially as you get closer to your planned fitness peaks.

My HR was 8bpm higher at the second test and, due to all the factors that can influence HR, I'm uneasy using it for much more than tracking potential overtraining (ie, if I'm consistently having a hard time getting it into my last 10%, I know I need some rest.)

The test has been continued two steps past 4mmol - not sure how one could identify the deflection point without doing so. I may ask to go 3 steps next time (May) just for giggles.

Re: the correlation between 5MP/ 1.2 and FT - it currently does come very close. I'm at my first peak and it will be interesting to see if the ratio continues to be the same.
Re: VO2max intervals, I also do them as hard as I can and still complete the set at a steady power. Incidentally, this is currently 30-50w higher than my training plan calls for, but I sometimes use my plan as a 'minimum RDA' type document, when it comes to specific wattages.

FWIW, I don't really believe that a lactate test in a lab is any more 'accurate' than some other methods of determining FT. But I know that, to a certain degree, I am a 'belief-based' racer Just like having a nice, light bike (which arguably doesn't make a quantifiable difference in performance,) I find it highly motivating to visit UCD, get calipered, give some blood, talk shop with an experienced local racer like Van Sickle, and sit down to draw up a plan with Testa. Honestly, it's great fun.

 

[WarrenG]

When it comes down to this, this is what it is all about. I have an athlete without HRM or Power. We could work on RPE, but I just say go as hard as you can for the work period..and it works pretty well. Time will tell. Of course, he gets a different program compared to power users.

Not even a $50 HRM? Even though I'm going as hard as I can for the duration I still use the PM for pacing and the HRM for some feedback. At least your athlete is aware (as evidenced by their listening to you) that a good plan is more important than one single measurement tool. That's a better starting point than getting all the "tools" and focusing on their use at the expense of not focusing enough on plans and methodology.

 

[WarrenG]

My HR was 8bpm higher at the second test and, due to all the factors that can influence HR, I'm uneasy using it for much more than tracking potential overtraining (ie, if I'm consistently having a hard time getting it into my last 10%, I know I need some rest.).

Week to week, month to month and year to year I see very little variation, just a few beats. My pre-test estimate for 4mmol power is usually within 10 watts and that's based only on my HR and power during 4-5' intervals around the same level of PE and effort.

The test has been continued two steps past 4mmol - not sure how one could identify the deflection point without doing so. I may ask to go 3 steps next time (May) just for giggles..

That defelection, if there really is a significant one isn't going to change much within an individual and the vast majority of people will find it very close to 4.0. One step is enough. 3 steps would be really tough for me. I've seen more than 12mmol/l and I'm not anxious to repeat that just for "giggles".

Re: the correlation between 5MP/ 1.2 and FT - it currently does come very close. I'm at my first peak and it will be interesting to see if the ratio continues to be the same.
Re: VO2max intervals, I also do them as hard as I can and still complete the set at a steady power. Incidentally, this is currently 30-50w higher than my training plan calls for, .

I can't figure out how you'd be doing 4-5' intervals at 30-50w above your plan and still be only at 4mmol power = 5mp/1.2. For example, 4mmol:300 watts, 5mp: 350 (5mp/1.2), intervals at 400?

I find it highly motivating to visit UCD, get calipered, give some blood, talk shop with an experienced local racer like Van Sickle, and sit down to draw up a plan with Testa. Honestly, it's great fun.

In case somebody thinks getting "calipered" is something odd, it's getting measured with calipers for bodyfat estimates.

 

[peterpen]

I can't figure out how you'd be doing 4-5' intervals at 30-50w above your plan and still be only at 4mmol power = 5mp/1.2. For example, 4mmol:300 watts, 5mp: 350 (5mp/1.2), intervals at 400?

Some of this confusion is due to my being loose with the details - sorry.
4.1 mmol= 285w on 2/6/06,
suggested plan was 5x6' intervals at 300w,
I do them around 330-350w.

(fwiw, the 1 mile/ 8% hill I typically use is more like 5'30" - 6'.) The highest 5 min max I've found was 358w. 358/1.2=298 which is closer to where I suspect my FT currently is - I've recently done a 30' climb at 310w avP, a 43' race at 305w normP, and a 57' race at 311w normP.

 

[WarrenG]

Some of this confusion is due to my being loose with the details - sorry.
4.1 mmol= 285w on 2/6/06,
suggested plan was 5x6' intervals at 300w,
I do them around 330-350w.

(fwiw, the 1 mile/ 8% hill I typically use is more like 5'30" - 6'.) The highest 5 min max I've found was 358w. 358/1.2=298 which is closer to where I suspect my FT currently is - I've recently done a 30' climb at 310w avP, a 43' race at 305w normP, and a 57' race at 311w normP.

Ah, Okay. Plus it's 9 weeks since your test and you power has improved since then. Your numbers are within 10-15 watts of mine and Max's training for me is similar to his suggestions for you in this area. 5 x 6' from Max would be a bit more for threshold than for improving ability around Vo2max and that's why he'd suggest 300 watts 8 weeks ago for your 5x6'. For training around threshold I don't go as hard as possible for the specified time. For intervals around Vo2max it's usually different during the racing season-go as hard as I can for the duration.

He'd suggest closer to 4 x 4-5' each for VO2max area, and probably aiming at around 350-360 watts if you're on a hill, which would be the 350 or so you mentioned. Also, some people, including me can do slightly higher power on hills than on the flats, especially as the cadence drops below 90-95.

Maybe as you get closer to important races you can do some that are about 4-5' long with power at 350-370, some on the flats too.

I think since you're able to do 5x6' at 330-350 your 5mp is probably more like 380+ in a one time, all-out effort, starting from complete rest.

P.S. I think I saw somewhere that you are a Cat 4 in NorCal but your threshold power numbers indicate you'd have no trouble in the Cat 3 fields, at least in flat'ish races.

 

[beerco]

Ummm... hello? Routine output over 2-3 x 20 minute intervals.

My primary method too. I double check with 1 hour NP in races, hard rides etc.

 

[msummers]

Ironically, the most popular method (at the moment, anyway) is one that I wouldn't necessarily recommend...

My "drop off" FT by power distribution is 250 -260 for the last 28 days. However I seldom do better than 235 NP in a 2x20 even though my RPE seems to be high. That begs the question, am I really capable of more in the 20min interval or is the "drop off" data not as good as the real deal?