Ruling sought on transfusion for baby of Jehovah's Witness



On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:

> And, how did they 'get away'
> with that refusal? Or are you talking about
> parents who don't bring their kids to the doctor
> at all?


I didn't address that 'get away' question. Sorry.

This is a whole other conversation we can have.

Some states will prosecute parents for this kind of neglect, even with
murder charges. However other states excuse parents from responsibility,
and unfortunately WI is one of those states.

There is probably a list of states at C.H.I.L.D. web site.

I am of the opinion parents should be held accountable.

There has been at least one instance in which one couple lost more than
one child because they denied treatment. Very sad. They were jailed,
tried--can't remember any more specifics of the case, but it may turn up
via a search.
 
"Greg Hanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> The mother was one of the worst possible targets.
> An activist who fights CPS abuses of families.
> She knew exactly what forms to ask for and how to
> obtain information that most parent's are obstructed
> from. She knew CPS paperwork better than the
> caseworkers probably. The boards and agencies
> tried to slough her off like they do with most
> parents, but that was not to be.
>


The fact that the mother was so familiar with CPS procedures is suspicious
in itself. It's clear that the nurse that is vilified in this story was not
the first to recognize a pattern of abuse in this parent-child relationship.
Could it be that where there's smoke, there's fire? How many other times had
the mother tangled with CPS, and why?

For that matter, Greg, what is YOUR special interest in spiral fractures all
about?

--Rich
 
"Carol Lee Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:
>
> > And, how did they 'get away'
> > with that refusal? Or are you talking about
> > parents who don't bring their kids to the doctor
> > at all?

>
> I didn't address that 'get away' question. Sorry.
>
> This is a whole other conversation we can have.
>
> Some states will prosecute parents for this kind of neglect, even with
> murder charges. However other states excuse parents from responsibility,
> and unfortunately WI is one of those states.
>
> There is probably a list of states at C.H.I.L.D. web site.
>
> I am of the opinion parents should be held accountable.
>
> There has been at least one instance in which one couple lost more than
> one child because they denied treatment. Very sad. They were jailed,
> tried--can't remember any more specifics of the case, but it may turn up
> via a search.
>


Most of the cases of child neglect that I have seen have nothing to do with
religion. They are just plain neglect. The last time I called CPS was a few
weeks ago when we had a mother and her six-month-old infant brought to the
ER after a motor vehicle accident. The mother suffered a concussion syndrome
and a scalp laceration. The baby had a femur fracture. The child had been in
a baby carrier that had not been restrained in the car at all. Mom, even
though she was fully conscious in the ER did not even ask about the fate or
whereabouts of her daughter. Her blood alcohol level was 319 mg/dl. Five
hours later, when the baby had been taken into custodial care by CPS, and
transferred to a pediatric hospital for treatment, mom sobered up enough to
threaten to sue everybody in sight. I'm sure she considers herself to be
badly treated by the hospital and the state. Tough!

--Rich
 
"Peter Bowditch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >can you give other
> >examples of parents refusing medical treatments
> >that are available?

>
> Vaccination.
>


Birth, too. Home birth with an unlicensed, untrained midwife, or with no
care at all often results in infant or even maternal death.

--Rich
 

>
> Most of the cases of child neglect that I have seen have nothing to do

with
> religion. They are just plain neglect. The last time I called CPS was a

few
> weeks ago when we had a mother and her six-month-old infant brought to the
> ER after a motor vehicle accident. The mother suffered a concussion

syndrome
> and a scalp laceration. The baby had a femur fracture. The child had been

in
> a baby carrier that had not been restrained in the car at all. Mom, even
> though she was fully conscious in the ER did not even ask about the fate

or
> whereabouts of her daughter. Her blood alcohol level was 319 mg/dl. Five
> hours later, when the baby had been taken into custodial care by CPS, and
> transferred to a pediatric hospital for treatment, mom sobered up enough

to
> threaten to sue everybody in sight. I'm sure she considers herself to be
> badly treated by the hospital and the state. Tough!
>


And exactly how is this even remotely similar to the discussion topic?
 
Greg Hanson wrote:
> dickenson/bidkev:


> You hang out in the autism support group when
> you don't have autism?


A question? with the intent of inferring something? I am self dx'd as
are many AC's of my age. I also have children with autism.

>Just to harass them?


A question? with the intent of inferring something? I "harass" (your
word, not mine), bullies such as your worthless self. Charlatans who
feed on carer's grief, trolls, and those who use autism as an excuse for
their psychotic behaviours.

> I doubted that you developed your heightened
> animosity towards me in there.


My animosity towards you is "fed" by your continued denial that you did
*anything* to harm that little girl, even though you *do* admit to the
foul treatment you inflicted on her. Your feeble postings on
alt.support.foster-parents say all there is to know about you.

> I see that even though you ""accuse"" me of
> having an agenda (Captain Obvious?) the
> real truth is that you are a BENEFICIARY of
> the OTHER SIDE of the agenda.


Yes, I benefit from the love that my foster children give me......from
the knowledge that I have saved them from scum such as you. I also
benefit from the pleasure of exposing worthless scum such as yourself.

> Folks, Dickenson is a FOSTER PARENT and a
> croney or sock for another CPS contractor.
> Certainly NOT absent an agenda.


I wouldn't deny it, but that *doesn't detract from your foul deeds,
scumbag.

Do you *really* think that an attempt to besmirch *me* will detract from
what others can clearly learn about *you* if they only but google your
worthless name?
 
Rich Shewmaker wrote:
> "Greg Hanson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...


> For that matter, Greg, what is YOUR special interest in spiral
> fractures all about?


Google the despicable creature and you will get a clearer picture.
 
Rich Shewmaker wrote:

[snips on quotes]

>
> From this, it appears that a court order to transfuse the blood is the best
> outcome for all. Certainly, the parents have not displeased God, because
> they refused the transfusion in the first place. The infant cannot have
> displeased God, because he is innocent of any ability to provide input to
> the decision.


I appreciate your hard work in coming up with a
solution that seems to resolve all the issues, but
clearly you really don't see things from the JW
point of view (and probably don't really care to,
I'm guessing -- the JW view is only worth dismissing
as looney, to you).

But, just for the sake of argument, allow me
to suggest how JWs might view the matter.

The Bible directive "abstain from blood" is at
Acts 15:20, which includes a total of 4 things,
"abstain from things polluted to idols and
from fornication and from what is strangled
and from blood." (NWT) To JWs, the last two are
really the same, because "strangled" meat (i.e.,
meat caught in a snare, and not drained of blood
before it died) is in the same vein (pun not
intended - but hey, it works) as the command to
abstain from blood.

You'd probably agree that, rationale aside, it
probably wouldn't be very nice to force either
a JW or a JW-child to actually eat blood, or eat
unbled meat. [I'm guessing that at least
orthodox Jews would feel the same way.] You
probably couldn't argue that saying, "since we
forced you to eat it, we take the blame, not you,"
would be a very comforting argument. Even if
the one forced to eat isn't to blame, they
wouldn't be happy about it, no matter what the
reason was.

I'll skip coming up with a scenario involving
"things polluted to idols" and focus on fornication.
Although we might argue that if two consenting
people willingly commit fornication it's nobody's
business, "fornication" forced upon one person by
another under any circumstances is not excusable,
and is rape.

Again, rationale for doing so aside, no one could
argue that the following is particularly comforting:
"Since neither you nor your child agreed to be raped,
you aren't to blame. The rapist takes the responsibility
for displeasing God."

As you can surmise from the above, it isn't sufficient
to say that because a person was forced to submit
to something, they shouldn't feel bad about it. In
reality, anything that is forced is a violation of
the person.

JWs understand full well that doctors (who are not
JWs) only feel they are doing their best, and are
doing what *they* feel 'saves a life'. In this
particular case, however, no rationale on the part
of the doctor or his staff eliminates the very real
feeling (to the JWs) that they and their children
have been forcibly violated. Even if they are
legally excused by a court order, and are morally
'excused' because their child was taken away from
them, they will forever feel violated. [Plus they
may worry about adverse consequences from bad-blood,
a risk and worry that the forced transfusion has also
forced upon them.]

> If anyone has displeased God, it is the medical professionals
> and the courts, people who clearly are comfortable with taking that risk.


Well, I must say, that's very big of the medical
professionals to take the risk of displeasing God
for the JWs.

What that really means is that the medical community
really doesn't give a hoot about the religious views
of the parents, and that it feels that it can take
the place of God for them (stand up to Him if there is
an issue of displeasure to be discussed), granting
JWs (or any with other religious reservations)
absolution. It's awfully big of the medical community
to say to JWs that it has the power to absolve JW
parents from their spiritual obligations, and that
they should not feel violated forever after.

> The child lives.


The child and the family also all forever live with the
feeling of violation.

JWs don't take the stand they do because they want
their children to die. If they wanted their children
to die, they wouldn't take them to doctors in the
first place.

-mark.
 
Carol Lee Smith wrote:

[snips]

> <<For years, Rita Swan has been one of the leading voices on their behalf
> as founder of Children's Health Care Is a Legal Duty, an organization
> based in Sioux City, Iowa, that lobbies for removing the state exemptions.
> Once a Christian Scientist, Mrs. Swan said that in 1977 a church
> "practitioner" a member who is paid to pray told her and her husband
> after several weeks of prayer that their 17-month-old son, Matthew, was
> suffering from a broken bone. Since Christian Scientists are allowed to
> consult doctors for broken bones, the Swans took Matthew to a hospital,
> only to learn he was suffering from spinal meningitis. He died a week
> later.>>


OK, but those were Christian Scientists, who
(apparently) eschew ALL treatment by modern medicine.
JWs don't avoid ALL medical treatment, they only
have an issue with blood.

Are there any other examples that are not so
extreme (as those who refuse ALL treatment for
religious religions)?

-mark.
 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:

> To JWs, the last two are
> really the same, because "strangled" meat (i.e.,
> meat caught in a snare, and not drained of blood
> before it died) ...


How in the world can any animal be drained of blood BEFORE it died?
 
Peter Bowditch wrote:
>
> Mark Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >can you give other
> >examples of parents refusing medical treatments
> >that are available?

>
> Vaccination.


I was thinking of vaccination myself, though it is
more of a preventative measure than one that treats
an existing condition.

JWs don't currently have an issue with vaccination.
[I'm also not interested in discussions about their
past viewpoint.]

Given that others do, however, have an issue with it
today, why is it legal for parents to exempt their
children from vaccination?

I know it is legal because I looked into it a short
while ago, and was surprised that in many cases the
parents simply have to submit a statement that they
object to vaccinations for religious reasons, and
they are excused.

Again, why are they legally allowed to get away with that?

-mark.
 
"Mark Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Rich Shewmaker wrote:
>
> [snips on quotes]
>
> >
> > From this, it appears that a court order to transfuse the blood is the

best
> > outcome for all. Certainly, the parents have not displeased God, because
> > they refused the transfusion in the first place. The infant cannot have
> > displeased God, because he is innocent of any ability to provide input

to
> > the decision.

>
> I appreciate your hard work in coming up with a
> solution that seems to resolve all the issues, but
> clearly you really don't see things from the JW
> point of view (and probably don't really care to,
> I'm guessing -- the JW view is only worth dismissing
> as looney, to you).
>
> But, just for the sake of argument, allow me
> to suggest how JWs might view the matter.
>
> The Bible directive "abstain from blood" is at
> Acts 15:20, which includes a total of 4 things,
> "abstain from things polluted to idols and
> from fornication and from what is strangled
> and from blood." (NWT) To JWs, the last two are
> really the same, because "strangled" meat (i.e.,
> meat caught in a snare, and not drained of blood
> before it died) is in the same vein (pun not
> intended - but hey, it works) as the command to
> abstain from blood.
>
> You'd probably agree that, rationale aside, it
> probably wouldn't be very nice to force either
> a JW or a JW-child to actually eat blood, or eat
> unbled meat. [I'm guessing that at least
> orthodox Jews would feel the same way.] You
> probably couldn't argue that saying, "since we
> forced you to eat it, we take the blame, not you,"
> would be a very comforting argument. Even if
> the one forced to eat isn't to blame, they
> wouldn't be happy about it, no matter what the
> reason was.
>
> I'll skip coming up with a scenario involving
> "things polluted to idols" and focus on fornication.
> Although we might argue that if two consenting
> people willingly commit fornication it's nobody's
> business, "fornication" forced upon one person by
> another under any circumstances is not excusable,
> and is rape.
>
> Again, rationale for doing so aside, no one could
> argue that the following is particularly comforting:
> "Since neither you nor your child agreed to be raped,
> you aren't to blame. The rapist takes the responsibility
> for displeasing God."
>
> As you can surmise from the above, it isn't sufficient
> to say that because a person was forced to submit
> to something, they shouldn't feel bad about it. In
> reality, anything that is forced is a violation of
> the person.
>
> JWs understand full well that doctors (who are not
> JWs) only feel they are doing their best, and are
> doing what *they* feel 'saves a life'. In this
> particular case, however, no rationale on the part
> of the doctor or his staff eliminates the very real
> feeling (to the JWs) that they and their children
> have been forcibly violated. Even if they are
> legally excused by a court order, and are morally
> 'excused' because their child was taken away from
> them, they will forever feel violated. [Plus they
> may worry about adverse consequences from bad-blood,
> a risk and worry that the forced transfusion has also
> forced upon them.]
>
> > If anyone has displeased God, it is the medical

professionals
> > and the courts, people who clearly are comfortable with taking that

risk.
>
> Well, I must say, that's very big of the medical
> professionals to take the risk of displeasing God
> for the JWs.
>
> What that really means is that the medical community
> really doesn't give a hoot about the religious views
> of the parents, and that it feels that it can take
> the place of God for them (stand up to Him if there is
> an issue of displeasure to be discussed), granting
> JWs (or any with other religious reservations)
> absolution. It's awfully big of the medical community
> to say to JWs that it has the power to absolve JW
> parents from their spiritual obligations, and that
> they should not feel violated forever after.
>
> > The child lives.

>
> The child and the family also all forever live with the
> feeling of violation.
>
> JWs don't take the stand they do because they want
> their children to die. If they wanted their children
> to die, they wouldn't take them to doctors in the
> first place.
>
> -mark.



Not only must the JW live with the violation, but that violation comes from
the hand of government, who by Consittutional law must make no law
respecting an establishment of religion, and the free expression therof. If
government can force JWs to forgo thier religion, then government can force
any of us to alter our expression thereof. If we can be forced to alter our
expression thereof, then it is no longer free expression.

I do not agree for one second with the position of the family involved, but
they have the right to the free expression thereof, and governemnt is
preparing to violate that basic right that Americans have. If we can deny
this basic right to JWs, then we can deny this basic right to others. Before
we know it, we will have government making laws respecting an establishment
of religion.
 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:

> ...
> What that really means is that the medical community
> really doesn't give a hoot about the religious views
> of the parents,


Probably members of the medical community know that whether parents are
religious or of which variety doesn't matter a hoot if it prevents
appropriate care when the life of a child hangs in the balance.

The life of a child should trump belief in imaginary friends any day of
the week.

<snip>

> > The child lives.


> The child and the family also all forever live with the
> feeling of violation.


A small thing to live with when compared with living with the the loss of
a child which could possibly have been prevented.

> JWs don't take the stand they do because they want
> their children to die. If they wanted their children
> to die, they wouldn't take them to doctors in the
> first place.


Do you think that those of faiths which do not use standard medical
procedures/practices/practitioners are any less religious than JWs or that
their "violation" is any less when their faith is trumped by authorities
intervening in cases where minors lives are at risk?
 
Carol Lee Smith wrote:
>
> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:
>
> > To JWs, the last two are
> > really the same, because "strangled" meat (i.e.,
> > meat caught in a snare, and not drained of blood
> > before it died) ...

>
> How in the world can any animal be drained of blood BEFORE it died?


Sorry, I was typing in a hurry.

All I meant was that animals caught in
traps may die while still in the trap, and by
the time the trapper gets to them, the
blood has coagulated, and is thus not possible
to drain.

An animal that is still alive when caught
by the trapper can be killed, and the blood
can be drained because there is no appreciable
time delay.

My use of the word "trap" is general, though
some traps do/did actually strangle the animal.
If an animal were "strangled" in any way to be
put to death, and the blood wasn't immediately
drained (while it could be drained), the
restriction would apply.

-mark.
 
"Mark Sornson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Peter Bowditch wrote:
> >
> > Mark Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > >can you give other
> > >examples of parents refusing medical treatments
> > >that are available?

> >
> > Vaccination.

>
> I was thinking of vaccination myself, though it is
> more of a preventative measure than one that treats
> an existing condition.
>
> JWs don't currently have an issue with vaccination.
> [I'm also not interested in discussions about their
> past viewpoint.]
>
> Given that others do, however, have an issue with it
> today, why is it legal for parents to exempt their
> children from vaccination?
>
> I know it is legal because I looked into it a short
> while ago, and was surprised that in many cases the
> parents simply have to submit a statement that they
> object to vaccinations for religious reasons, and
> they are excused.
>
> Again, why are they legally allowed to get away with that?
>


Why would they NOT be allowed to avoid vaccination? If an illness comes
around that they (or their kids) are not vaccinated against, the common flu
for example, then they risk exposure and/or quarantine.

We vaccinate kids against common illnesses because we do not want those
illnesses running rampant through the school population, and in turn the
general population. If a few kids -- more precisely the kids' parents --
object to the vaccine, they do not present a serious threat to everybody
else because everybody else has been vaccinated. The kids might become ill,
but they are simply separated from the rest of us for a few days until the
illness passes. And, if they are not separated, it isn't that big of a deal
because we have all been vaccinated for the very reason that we don't want
to get sick.
 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:

> Carol Lee Smith wrote:


> > How in the world can any animal be drained of blood BEFORE it died?


> Sorry, I was typing in a hurry.


No big deal.

<snip details about strangling and the draining of blood>

Just as it is impossible for anyone to be a total vegan no matter how hard
they try, it is impossible to remove every single blood cell from the meat
we eat.

There are a lot of OT strictures that JWs do not follow.

It is interesting to check out just which (and what kind of
interpretations of which) are followed and why, and which ones are just
ignored or interpreted in such a way that they are deemed trivial or not
valid to them while they may be valid to some other religious group.
 
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Rich Shewmaker wrote:

> "Carol Lee Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message


> > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003, Mark Sornson wrote:


> > > And, how did they 'get away'
> > > with that refusal? Or are you talking about
> > > parents who don't bring their kids to the doctor at all?


> > I didn't address that 'get away' question. Sorry.


> > This is a whole other conversation we can have.


> > Some states will prosecute parents for this kind of neglect, even with
> > murder charges. However other states excuse parents from responsibility,
> > and unfortunately WI is one of those states.


> > There is probably a list of states at C.H.I.L.D. web site.


> > I am of the opinion parents should be held accountable.


> > There has been at least one instance in which one couple lost more than
> > one child because they denied treatment. Very sad. They were jailed,
> > tried--can't remember any more specifics of the case, but it may turn up
> > via a search. They are just plain neglect.


> Most of the cases of child neglect that I have seen have nothing to do with
> religion.


Perhaps cases of plain neglect outweigh neglect caused by religious
superstitions.

> The last time I called CPS was a few
> weeks ago when we had a mother and her six-month-old infant brought to the
> ER after a motor vehicle accident. The mother suffered a concussion syndrome
> and a scalp laceration. The baby had a femur fracture. The child had been in
> a baby carrier that had not been restrained in the car at all. Mom, even
> though she was fully conscious in the ER did not even ask about the fate or
> whereabouts of her daughter. Her blood alcohol level was 319 mg/dl.


Supposing, just for the sake of discussion, that alcohol was imbibed as
part of religious ritual. Are the results to be considered on the same
level as the religious neglect which kills children?

> Five
> hours later, when the baby had been taken into custodial care by CPS, and
> transferred to a pediatric hospital for treatment, mom sobered up enough to
> threaten to sue everybody in sight. I'm sure she considers herself to be
> badly treated by the hospital and the state. Tough!


I would tend to agree.
 
"--tomcat--" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "jabriol" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > "~* Egg Plant *~" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > >
> > > > As a parent, I DEMAND that right.
> > >
> > > * You demand the right to allow a child who has the chance for a

NORMAL
> > life
> > > die? Perhaps you need to relocate to a less advanced country where no

> one
> > > cares much about the children.

> >
> >
> > says a person who agree with abortion. When you kill preborn

>
> I think you mean fetus, unless you find the word preborn in a dictionary
> somewhere.
>


call it a fetus, enbryo, what ever you like... what ever you wish to call it
has the potential of becoming a human being. No other organ or cell in the
women body will serve the purpose as an embryo would. If a women wants a
child, that the process it going to take to get one, wether it be from her
own uterus, or another surogate, or invitro and grown in a lab. remove the
embryo, or fetus and cut it up via planned abortion, and the child that
would have been is no longer..

better?
 
"Mike Krobz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mark Sornson <[email protected]> wrote in message

news:<[email protected]>...
> > Carol Lee Smith wrote:
> > > Carol who?

>
> > The other Carol, Carol Windsong -- she almost never
> > actually signs her real name, and she almost never
> > uses a real e-mail address. She is known mostly for
> > her posting 'style' and the slant of her content.
> >
> > -mark.

> ========================
> Who in their right mind would sign using their REAL name? There are
> too many lunatics on the net for that. Spam kills us all. I had to
> change 2 account names already because of spam in the past. This way
> I don't get any! :)
>
> Mike Krobz & Caroline........


more like she got dumped by her ISP for slandering others...