Running vs cycling training affect question

[TiMan]

Runners cannot do the time on the road that a cyclist does as it would be physically impossible without serious injury. Elite runners almost never do long tempo runs(marathon race pace) or even easy endurance runs longer than 2-2.5 hours. Nobody can say that a marathoner lacks endurance, even though he never trains more than 2-2.5 hours at a time and on most days much less.

ie: Jack Daniels, the worlds #1 running coach, sets a limit on long runs for marathoners at 22 miles or 2.5 hours, which ever is less. These runs are done once a week at most.

Recent elite marathoner Pete Pfitzinger's long runs where 22 miles starting at 6:15 per mile pace and increasing to 5:30 mile pace.....that a run just over 2 hours long.

***#1. SO ...why the heck do we cyclists do 4 plus hour endurance rides anyway. Perhaps anything over 2-2.5 hours really does nothing for endurance but just burns fat and helps us loose weight.

#2. SO......why the heck do runners have lactate threshold and VO2 max levels as high as elite cyclists when their LT sessions and interval sessions are rarely over an hour.

ie: Here is an example of Pete Pfitzingers VO2 max and LT training sessions.

VO2 max runs....3 mile warm up and then 5 intervals of one mile length in 4 minutes 32-34 seconds...jog 2 minutes between. 4 mile cool down. Thats probably about 65 minutes tops for the ENTIRE session!.

LT run....3 mile warm up and then 5 miles at LT pace in 24 minutes 15 seconds followed by a 4 mile cool down. Thats also about 65 minutes total!

Correctly me if I am wrong but cannot optimal VO2 max and LT training be done on a bike in around an hour per session ...just like with running. It does appear that elite cyclists spend longer times training at these intensities though.
Logically then it stands to reason that we cyclists could develope VO2 max and LT with the same time on the bike as a runner on the road.



Comments appreciated.

 

[Duckwah]

Marathon runners are a bit of an exception to the guidleines for most distance racing events in running, cycling and swimming.

Any runner/racer who races shorter distances will run over distance at lower speeds, under distance at higher than race pace and train around the race pace and distance.

As you point out its pretty taxing to do lots of long runs due to injury concerns. On a bike you don't have that concern.

If you are going to race crits or 40k TT then there is probably not a good reason to be out in the saddle for 5+ hours since you can build Lactate tolerance and good VO2 with rides of around an hour to 2 hours.

However the pros race stages and classics that are up to 6 hours in length so it pays to train up to and beyond those times in order to better adapt to the stresses of those events.

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by TiMan
Runners cannot do the time on the road that a cyclist does as it would be physically impossible without serious injury. Elite runners almost never do long tempo runs(marathon race pace) or even easy endurance runs longer than 2-2.5 hours. Nobody can say that a marathoner lacks endurance, even though he never trains more than 2-2.5 hours at a time and on most days much less.

ie: Jack Daniels, the worlds #1 running coach, sets a limit on long runs for marathoners at 22 miles or 2.5 hours, which ever is less. These runs are done once a week at most.

Recent elite marathoner Pete Pfitzinger's long runs where 22 miles starting at 6:15 per mile pace and increasing to 5:30 mile pace.....that a run just over 2 hours long.

***#1. SO ...why the heck do we cyclists do 4 plus hour endurance rides anyway. Perhaps anything over 2-2.5 hours really does nothing for endurance but just burns fat and helps us loose weight.

#2. SO......why the heck do runners have lactate threshold and VO2 max levels as high as elite cyclists when their LT sessions and interval sessions are rarely over an hour.

ie: Here is an example of Pete Pfitzingers VO2 max and LT training sessions.

VO2 max runs....3 mile warm up and then 5 intervals of one mile length in 4 minutes 32-34 seconds...jog 2 minutes between. 4 mile cool down. Thats probably about 65 minutes tops for the ENTIRE session!.

LT run....3 mile warm up and then 5 miles at LT pace in 24 minutes 15 seconds followed by a 4 mile cool down. Thats also about 65 minutes total!

Correctly me if I am wrong but cannot optimal VO2 max and LT training be done on a bike in around an hour per session ...just like with running. It does appear that elite cyclists spend longer times training at these intensities though.
Logically then it stands to reason that we cyclists could develope VO2 max and LT with the same time on the bike as a runner on the road.

Comments appreciated.

I agree completely that endurance performance can be maximised with shorter more intense training and this has been the subject of a number of threads on these boards.

Obviously, riders competing in longer races/rides need to complete training rides upto that distance; but this could be done very infrequently.

Much of our love for long training rides seems to stem from tradition and copying what other more accomplished riders.

I often find it funny that some full time cyclists that I know complete 20+ hours a week and yet go at the same speed as other riders with full time jobs doing only 10 hours a week. This makes me think that either the 20+ hours a week cyclists are (1) doing too much with too little rest or (2) spending their hours on poor training activities.

 

[vonteity]

Originally posted by TiMan
Runners cannot do the time on the road that a cyclist does as it would be physically impossible without serious injury. Elite runners almost never do long tempo runs(marathon race pace) or even easy endurance runs longer than 2-2.5 hours. Nobody can say that a marathoner lacks endurance, even though he never trains more than 2-2.5 hours at a time and on most days much less.

ie: Jack Daniels, the worlds #1 running coach, sets a limit on long runs for marathoners at 22 miles or 2.5 hours, which ever is less. These runs are done once a week at most.

...SNIP...

Comments appreciated.

CHOMP.

According to your comments, I must be crazy or super elite. Training for marathons, I've covered up to 24 mile distances (which took 4.5 hours at my slow ass pace). Mr. Daniels must think I'm approaching this all wrong.

Granted, I don't do 24 mile runs every week. Most week day runs (when I'm running, anyway) average 1.5 hours, weekends average 2.5 hours. I do, however, always do a long run of at least 2 hours each week.

My thoughts on this is that it's a heck of a lot easier to ride longer than to run longer. I can stay on the bike for much longer than I can pound the pavement. I find I hit my lactate threshold much sooner running -- my heart rate is higher running for 20 minutes than it is riding for an hour or more. Or maybe I'm a lazy ******* and don't bother to push it on the bike.

For instance: 2 mile run vs. 18 mile ride
My Max HR: 189
Time: 20 mins vs. 60 mins
Max HR hit: 174 vs. 158
Avg HR: 168 vs. 151

I would consider both the run and the ride about equal in terms of effort. I was neither racing nor taking it easy, but I did just give blood last week and my HRs have been kind of high, so effort was adjusted accordingly.

Just my personal observations.

 

[VeloFlash]

Cycling (swimming and rowing) are weight supported. Running requires more stress on the body as each running stride absorbs a multiple of the body weight.

This impact is carried by the joints and muscles.

I understand because of the damage caused through a highly competitive elite marathon race, runners are advised only to compete 2 or 3 times per year. This enables their bodies to recover.

 

[TiMan]

[

Any runner/racer who races shorter distances will run over distance at lower speeds, under distance at higher than race pace and train around the race pace and distance.

Thats not true bro.
Training is done with a mix of all speeds/intensities. Even shorter distance runners train at endurance pace for long runs, long tempo pace for somewhat long runs, interval pace and "reps" running(faster than race pace) for shorter runs, and threshold runs slightly slower than race pace.

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by vonteity
CHOMP.

According to your comments, I must be crazy or super elite. Training for marathons, I've covered up to 24 mile distances (which took 4.5 hours at my slow ass pace). Mr. Daniels must think I'm approaching this all wrong.

Bro you are crazy he he he ...Daniels says NEVER run longer than 2.5 hours or 22 miles in training...whichever is less. This is universal amounst trainers and coaches bro. Not even the 125 pound Kenyans do 4.5 hour runs.
I suppose one could do 4.5 hours running at a very slow pace without injury but you have to have A-1 genetics/mechanics and do these runs VERY infrequently.....bro you would be better off doing runs of 2 hours but somewhat faster.

It is time on your feet and not mileage only that causes injuries.

 

[TiMan]

Correct me if I am wrong BUT I don't think Nordic skiers do 4-6 hours sessions......and their sport is as gentle on the body as cycling I think.

 

[vonteity]

Originally posted by TiMan

I suppose one could do 4.5 hours running at a very slow pace without injury but you have to have A-1 genetics/mechanics and do these runs VERY infrequently.....bro you would be better off doing runs of 2 hours but somewhat faster.

It is time on your feet and not mileage only that causes injuries.

Yes, the long runs are done at a slow pace (that's the point of them -- long, slow distance), about 11:00-11:30 pace, or 2:00 per mile slower than my marathon pace.

I don't think it's entirely true that I would be better off doing 2 hour runs at a faster pace, however. It's not only time on your feet that causes injuries, nor is it just mileage. It's a combination of time + mileage + intensity that causes injuries. Increasing the intensity of your runs, even if you make them shorter, can also cause problems.

Anyway, I haven't found any problems in doing long runs greater than 2.5 hours, which I generally do every other week towards the end of marathon training. What caused my problem (knee injury) was too much racing... unfortunately I'm a race junkie (3-4 a month, some back to back), which falls under the category of intensity. Pair that with high mileage and time on your feet and you can imagine why my knee started balking.

Although Daniels is considered a reputable source, not everyone agrees with what he says... and not just me! There are some reputable sources that don't agree with him either.

 

[TiMan]

[Although Daniels is considered a reputable source, not everyone agrees with what he says... and not just me! There are some reputable sources that don't agree with him either. [/QUOTE]

I will agree with you here....ie: I don't like his idea of doing very fast speed work(reps) phase before doing a phase that emphasizes intervals(slower work).

ie: Daniels formula......edurance base phase with slow to moderate speed runs with LT runs thrown in as a secondary emphasis.....then a "reps" phase emphasis...then an intervals phase emphasis....follwed by a LT phase emphasis while in the racing season.

All that said...I don't think you will find many coaches or elite runners that would like your 4.5 hour runs as a part of a biweekly schedule...
my .02

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by VeloFlash
Cycling (swimming and rowing) are weight supported. Running requires more stress on the body as each running stride absorbs a multiple of the body weight.

This impact is carried by the joints and muscles.

I understand because of the damage caused through a highly competitive elite marathon race, runners are advised only to compete 2 or 3 times per year. This enables their bodies to recover.

Yes, but because cyclists, swimmers and rowers CAN do more training; does that mean they SHOULD do more training?

I firmly believe that large training gains can be made in a low number hours per week (6 to 8 hours); when quite a large number of cyclists train for far longer than this with gains of a smaller magnitude.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TiMan
Runners cannot do the time on the road that a cyclist does as it would be physically impossible without serious injury. Elite runners almost never do long tempo runs(marathon race pace) or even easy endurance runs longer than 2-2.5 hours. Nobody can say that a marathoner lacks endurance, even though he never trains more than 2-2.5 hours at a time and on most days much less.

ie: Jack Daniels, the worlds #1 running coach, sets a limit on long runs for marathoners at 22 miles or 2.5 hours, which ever is less. These runs are done once a week at most.

Recent elite marathoner Pete Pfitzinger's long runs where 22 miles starting at 6:15 per mile pace and increasing to 5:30 mile pace.....that a run just over 2 hours long.

***#1. SO ...why the heck do we cyclists do 4 plus hour endurance rides anyway. Perhaps anything over 2-2.5 hours really does nothing for endurance but just burns fat and helps us loose weight.

#2. SO......why the heck do runners have lactate threshold and VO2 max levels as high as elite cyclists when their LT sessions and interval sessions are rarely over an hour.

ie: Here is an example of Pete Pfitzingers VO2 max and LT training sessions.

VO2 max runs....3 mile warm up and then 5 intervals of one mile length in 4 minutes 32-34 seconds...jog 2 minutes between. 4 mile cool down. Thats probably about 65 minutes tops for the ENTIRE session!.

LT run....3 mile warm up and then 5 miles at LT pace in 24 minutes 15 seconds followed by a 4 mile cool down. Thats also about 65 minutes total!

Correctly me if I am wrong but cannot optimal VO2 max and LT training be done on a bike in around an hour per session ...just like with running. It does appear that elite cyclists spend longer times training at these intensities though.
Logically then it stands to reason that we cyclists could develope VO2 max and LT with the same time on the bike as a runner on the road.



Comments appreciated.

If by LT you mean the average intensity (i.e. power output) of a TT, then this can be trained well, in less than to 1-hr. I frequently recommend one to four x 15 - 30 mins, once to twice per week to build TT power.

Training to increase VO2 max, is probably done most beneficially with relatively short efforts of 3 to 6 mins, with three to eight intervals, up to ~ three times per week.

There are some reasons to do longer rides, but generally not at the frequency some coaches seem to suggest.

Ric

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by ricstern
If by LT you mean the average intensity (i.e. power output) of a TT, then this can be trained well, in less than to 1-hr. I frequently recommend one to four x 15 - 30 mins, once to twice per week to build TT power.

Ric

I was referring to LT efforts which are just below lactate threshold, or at most just AT lacate threshold.
The runner trains LT at or just below(usually just below) his LT. The pace is just under 10 K race pace.

I think the "average intensity " of a TT effort is slightly above LT....just like a 10K running race.
I know I can hold an effort just above my LT for about 30-45 minutes and some well trained athletes can hold it for an hour or more.

The well trained runner runs 10 k races above lacate threshold as they take 35 minutes or less to complete the run. Even the average runner that is in good shape runs most of a 10 K above LT in under 42 minutes.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

LT is quite a low intensity -- most trained cyclists can maintain LT for up to and above 3+ hrs. LT is generally defined as a 1 mmol/L increase in lactate above exercise baseline or 2.5 mmol/L. The power output is about 15 to 20 % below the workload that can be maximally sustained for ~ 1-hr.

Ric

 

[ebrunner]

Originally posted by TiMan

Originally posted by vonteity
CHOMP.
Not even the 125 pound Kenyans do 4.5 hour runs.

That's partly because the Kenyans run a marathon in less than 2:10. I think it is not a bad idea to do some long runs lasting the same DURATION that you plan to run the marathon in (i.e. 2:45 marathon, 2:45 long run). However, the INTENSITY should be less, which means you will probably only cover 22-24 miles in this time. I think Daniels program is more applicable for the faster runners, where 2-2.5 hours is close to their marathon time. Remember, your heart operates according to time (i.e, you can hold x heart rate for y minutes); a 2:10 guy is essentially running at the same intensity as a 4:20 guy would run a half-marathon. Both are preparing for 26.2 miles, but the elite runner looks at it a 2 hour event, whereas the mid-packer looks at it as a 4:20 event, and each need to train accordingly.

Now, if you apply this strategy to cycling, training time would be quite different. Tour stages can last 6 or more hours, and they occur consecutively for three weeks. Marathon runners have months to recover before they repeat their event effort; Tour riders have to do it the next day. Pro cyclists training for the Tour need to prepare themselves for extended endurance, and so they do back-to-back 4-6 hour rides. The rest of us, who don't even do stage races, try to copy their training, although our events' demands are not the same. Even though we are gaining day-to-day endurance and recovery ability, it is not needed, tested or utilized during our single-day events.

As for LT and VO2 workouts, these could probably be achieved with much less time. One thing I've noticed is that cyclists' interval-type workouts are often very different from runners in that their recoveries are much longer (i.e. 5 minutes effort, 20 min. recovery--I think I've seen something like that on Lance's website--vs. runner's 5 minutes hard, 2 min recovery). This is because cyclists, during a race, have very intense periods (climbs, attacks, breaks, etc.) followed by longer recoveries (decents, time in the pack, etc.). Runners, aside from the occasional surge, essentially run at a constant pace throughout the race.

Finally, one also should consider that running is a more consistent effort (i.e. it still takes a good amount of effort to run downhill, with a tailwind, etc.) Cyclists, during a ride often have chunks of time when they are barely exerting. Therefore, a cyclist may need to ride 3 hours just to spend 2 hours in his/her target output; whereas a runner would only need to run a bit over 2 hours.

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by ricstern
If by LT you mean the average intensity (i.e. power output) of a TT, then this can be trained well, in less than to 1-hr. I frequently recommend one to four x 15 - 30 mins, once to twice per week to build TT power.

Ric

So Ric in light of the above and also your lastest reply on this thread are you saying that you recommend cyclists train once or twice a week at TT intensity for intervals of 15-30 minutes at a time?....seems very excessive to me bro.

Runners almost never train at their TT intensity because it is race pace for short runs and does not train Lactate threshold in the best way.

Would it not make more sence for one to train at or just below TT intensity once or twice per week for 15-30 minute sessions to improve TT performance race times.

 

[TiMan]

Originally posted by ebrunner
That's partly because the Kenyans run a marathon in less than 2:10. I think it is not a bad idea to do some long runs lasting the same DURATION that you plan to run the marathon in (i.e. 2:45 marathon, 2:45 long run). However, the INTENSITY should be less, which means you will probably only cover 22-24 miles in this time. I think Daniels program is more applicable for the faster runners, where 2-2.5 hours is close to their marathon time. Remember, your heart operates according to time (i.e, you can hold x heart rate for y minutes); a 2:10 guy is essentially running at the same intensity as a 4:20 guy would run a half-marathon. Both are preparing for 26.2 miles, but the elite runner looks at it a 2 hour event, whereas the mid-packer looks at it as a 4:20 event, and each need to train accordingly.

Now, if you apply this strategy to cycling, training time would be quite different. Tour stages can last 6 or more hours, and they occur consecutively for three weeks. Marathon runners have months to recover before they repeat their event effort; Tour riders have to do it the next day. Pro cyclists training for the Tour need to prepare themselves for extended endurance, and so they do back-to-back 4-6 hour rides. The rest of us, who don't even do stage races, try to copy their training, although our events' demands are not the same. Even though we are gaining day-to-day endurance and recovery ability, it is not needed, tested or utilized during our single-day events.

As for LT and VO2 workouts, these could probably be achieved with much less time. One thing I've noticed is that cyclists' interval-type workouts are often very different from runners in that their recoveries are much longer (i.e. 5 minutes effort, 20 min. recovery--I think I've seen something like that on Lance's website--vs. runner's 5 minutes hard, 2 min recovery). This is because cyclists, during a race, have very intense periods (climbs, attacks, breaks, etc.) followed by longer recoveries (decents, time in the pack, etc.). Runners, aside from the occasional surge, essentially run at a constant pace throughout the race.

Finally, one also should consider that running is a more consistent effort (i.e. it still takes a good amount of effort to run downhill, with a tailwind, etc.) Cyclists, during a ride often have chunks of time when they are barely exerting. Therefore, a cyclist may need to ride 3 hours just to spend 2 hours in his/her target output; whereas a runner would only need to run a bit over 2 hours.

You have made some interesting points, especially the last one which I totally agree with HOWEVER.....

Here is a quote from Daniels. Remember now that this man is considered one of the sports GURU'S if not #1 Guru world wide. He also has a PHD in exercise Physiology.

"Set a long run goal of 25-30% of your total weekly milage, and place a 2.5 hour limit on this run. An upper limit of 20-22 miles works well for many good runners. However, less talented or less fit runners who set 20 miles as their L run goal stand a greater chance of overstressing themselves(the run may take three hours or more to complete). Certainly , runs lasting three hours or more are not popular for elite runners so why should they be useful for a less talented person? Ultramarathoners and some marathoners will benefit from runs in excess of 20 miles, but the improvement for races like a marathon, half marathon, 15K and 10K is likely to be very slight(if it exists at all) in a physiological sence." Jack Daniels.

So Daniels is NOT in favor of runs over 2.5 hours long for any runner. This is pretty much the "standard" in the world of marathoning although I don't know the opinion of ultra marathoners.

I think you would be far better off skipping those very long runs that you do and work on LT running and VO2 max intervals...to try to improve your marathon times and fitness in general.

Yet considering that you are able to run for 4.5 hours at a time on a fairly consistant basis then perhaps you should focus on ultramarathons...you may be a natural. I have been running for 25 years and there is no way that I could servive 4.5 hours runs without injury if done even once a month.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TiMan
So Ric in light of the above and also your lastest reply on this thread are you saying that you recommend cyclists train once or twice a week at TT intensity for intervals of 15-30 minutes at a time?....seems very excessive to me bro.

Runners almost never train at their TT intensity because it is race pace for short runs and does not train Lactate threshold in the best way.

Would it not make more sence for one to train at or just below TT intensity once or twice per week for 15-30 minute sessions to improve TT performance race times.

At certain times of the year (i.e. depending on the riders goals), then yes i do. (somewhere between 30 to 60 mins (total) at 95 to 100 % of 1-hr TT power, once to twice per week, plus other intervals too).

By increasing TT power, you'll directly increase LT too.

Maybe runners don't do this as much (in your experience) because of the greater associated risk of injuries with running compared to cycling.

ric

 

[TiMan]

As for LT and VO2 workouts, these could probably be achieved with much less time. One thing I've noticed is that cyclists' interval-type workouts are often very different from runners in that their recoveries are much longer (i.e. 5 minutes effort, 20 min. recovery--I think I've seen something like that on Lance's website--vs. runner's 5 minutes hard, 2 min recovery). This is because cyclists, during a race, have very intense periods (climbs, attacks, breaks, etc.) followed by longer recoveries (decents, time in the pack, etc.). Runners, aside from the occasional surge, essentially run at a constant pace throughout the race.



Your obsevations about racing on the bike are correct however.....does that mean we should train VO2 max like we race? I don't think this is the best way to train VO2 max....long rests after efforts. I think it is best to not COMPLETELY recover between interval efforts.

Some popular authors and coaches recommendations below...

Armstrongs coach, Chris Carmichael recommends a 1 to 1 or 1 to 1.5 work to recovery rate.
David Morris likes a 1 to 1 work to recovery ratio
Joey Friel likes the same 1 to 1 work/recovery.
I don't think Ed Burke is in favor of long rest peroids either.

HOWEVER...Lemond and the Guimard fellows(Hinualt etc) did rest about 4X as long as the interval itself and they both had very high VO2 maxes(Lemond had a 92....higher than Armstrongs 88!).

Maybe genetics is the most important factor BY FAR and not training.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by TiMan
As for LT and VO2 workouts, these could probably be achieved with much less time. One thing I've noticed is that cyclists' interval-type workouts are often very different from runners in that their recoveries are much longer (i.e. 5 minutes effort, 20 min. recovery--I think I've seen something like that on Lance's website--vs. runner's 5 minutes hard, 2 min recovery). This is because cyclists, during a race, have very intense periods (climbs, attacks, breaks, etc.) followed by longer recoveries (decents, time in the pack, etc.). Runners, aside from the occasional surge, essentially run at a constant pace throughout the race.



Your obsevations about racing on the bike are correct however.....does that mean we should train VO2 max like we race? I don't think this is the best way to train VO2 max....long rests after efforts. I think it is best to not COMPLETELY recover between interval efforts.

Some popular authors and coaches recommendations below...

Armstrongs coach, Chris Carmichael recommends a 1 to 1 or 1 to 1.5 work to recovery rate.
David Morris likes a 1 to 1 work to recovery ratio
Joey Friel likes the same 1 to 1 work/recovery.
I don't think Ed Burke is in favor of long rest peroids either.

HOWEVER...Lemond and the Guimard fellows(Hinualt etc) did rest about 4X as long as the interval itself and they both had very high VO2 maxes(Lemond had a 92....higher than Armstrongs 88!).

Maybe genetics is the most important factor BY FAR and not training.

recovery periods will in part be dependent on the goals you're trying to achieve and the fitness of the rider.

ric