SA - Road safety program launched with a focus on cyclists



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Theo Bekkers

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:

> But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
>
> Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.


>> If you have an interest, check the body of evidence at
>> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

>
> Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
> read.


I know what I know, don't confuse me with facts?

> I think the bike lanes on roads make a huge difference, ie, a smooth
> strip between gutter and car lane at least
> 1.2M wide and with an unbroken white line places the cyclist at
> probably 1/10 of the normal risk.
> I remember the days before the lanes went in here, and it definately
> was far less safe.


In reality or in perception?

> But there are many who don't like breathing all the car exhaust fumes
> and dust from ground up brake and clutch linings.
>
> If yer don't get rundown, yer get lung cancer.


You do know that cyclists breathe in many times more air than motorists?

Theo
 
P

Patrick Turner

Guest
Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > But once you ride only on dedicated off road cycle paths, then the
> > risk plummets,

>
> How so? The majority of cycle accidents don't involve another vehicle.
> Roadways are filled with very predictable motor vehicle traffic, not those
> wildly unpredictable pedestrians and dogs.


See my other posts.

Never have I run into a dog.
I have a bell, and 99.99% of people have their precious animals on
leashes which
they tug tightly when they hear a bell.

You must allow for deaf dog owners though.

Be prepared to ride onto the grass.

Most pedestrians need belling, and whether they like it or not.

Most expect to be belled, because their heads don't have eyes facing
backwards.

I bell cyclists I pass to let em know I'm there.

Some don't like being belled, and I have no sympathy.


>
> > If Oppie was a young fella of 25 now, would he be seen on the roads?

>
> Of course he would, what a silly question.


Maybe he would have played tennis.

Oppi could have been lots of things.

So could you be, were you to live again.

But while watching a mountain stage on TV,
when Cadel was struggling upwards,
I distincly saw a figure briefly,
and riding close alongside,
and wispering some encouragment,
'twas the ghost of Oppie,
and then he was gone...

>
> > I guess the expectancy is another silly statistical peice of BS
> > because the expectancy of life falls as you mount a bike, and then
> > rises when you get off.

>
> The exact opposite is true. The increase in life expectancy through improved
> health far outweighs the risks of riding.


But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
respond well to
vigourous exercise.

Sure most health improves with cycling, but I keep in mind it could kill
me,
or perhaps necessitate a pair of replacement knee joints....

Oppi, like so many of the best athletes ever born had genes which let
him last.
But most ppl don't have anything like the same propensity to go such a
distance
to 91.
Most people die 20 years before Oppi, and have all sorts of ailaments
and limitations.

So just because some people like bikes, and the physicals that bring the
joy and health benefits,
many would find a bicycle a complete device of horror for them.


Patrick Turner.


>
> Theo
 
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Theo Bekkers

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:

> But you forget one factor.
>
> Add in the time taken to earn the money to pay for the motoring.
> THEN the average time taken to do a distance becomes much greater,
> and the bicycle wins easily.


Against a car, yes, but a 250cc motorcycle is cheaper to run on that basis.

> We have 60k in most built up areas, 50k on smaller suburb roads,
> and up to 110k on freeways.


And? When I was riding 12 kms to work in 25 mins, it was as quick as the car
and all 60 km/h zones. Why was that?

Theo
 
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Theo Bekkers

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:


>> Iwanted real figures. I already know that more than 7% of all trips
>> in Perth are done by bicycle, which doesn't quite gell with your
>> 0.5% for wherever you are.

>
> I am not a statistician. Gee, you're tryna tell me for every 93 people
> in motors
> in Perth, there are 7 cyclists?
> Maybe; isn't the terrain mainly flat?
> And the weather isn't cold. An maybe roads are not crowded.


Those are the Gov't figures collected over many years.

>> You're making all this up on the spot, aren't you?


> Just stating about what I observe.
>
> The probability of error is huge, and the truth could be either way,
> IMHO.
>
>
> But last month I did have to wait 1/2 an hour for a taxi outside the
> ABC headquaters on NthBourne,
> and only a very small number of cyclists rode past, maybe 3 or 4,
> while hundreds of motorists
> went past.
>
> See for yourself. Go sit on a busy road and count the cars and
> bicycles that go past on one side of the road for 15 minutes, then do
> the same for
> 15 minutes on the other side.


No thanks, it has already been done for me. Hence the figures I quoted. Your
figures are your perception, nothing to do with reality. I would be amazed
if Canberra cyclists only accounted for 0.5% of the traffic.

Theo
 
T

Theo Bekkers

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:

> I agree Theo. That has been my experience.
> Twice in 12months I fell off because of a recently washed out ridge
> crossing onto a cycle path,
> and then because of a breaking head stem on a main road. Fortunately I
> fell like a sack of spuds
> onto the cycle lane, and without following traffic which may well have
> run right over me otherwise.
>
> 15 years ago i also fell a total of several times, all self inflicted,
> once clipping a rear wheel in front in a bunch. Then twice I couldn't
> avoid
> other dizzy brained cyclists, once with a careless school boy about
> 13, and again with a
> confused Chinese girl student. The resulting head on crashes were
> bloody awful,
> but not one fall or crash was life threatening, just a mild nuisance,
> like being tackled hard in a game of footy.
>
> That used to happen many times in a game to me.
>
> Last week I slowed right down to pass a young couple with a 3 year old
> son on a small bike.
> My sixth sense told me to slow, because the parents were not looking
> very aware, even when i rang a bell.
> Just as I slowed, little johnny zoomed across into my wheel, even
> though I'd swung
> out a couple of meters into the grass, and and I had to stop dead,
> and I rolled off the bike onto grass
> to avoid falling on top of the kid, who had no idea he's been a bit
> of a nuisance.
>
> Be those saturday ppl had a right to be there, and I have a duty of
> care,
> and so I had a chuckle to the parents, "perhaps i will leave it to you
> to tell him something"
> and off i went, green-kneed, but quite unhurt.
>
> Lucky such cycle paths exist, with nice soft grass each side,
> and generally one can swing out into the grass
> if something happens, generally there is no harm done.


So, in all your years cycling you've had many accidents, all but one
apparently off the roads. You were never hit by a car, but you're convinced
it's the roads and cars that are the dangers to you. ROTFL.

Reality check time, young Patrick.

Theo
 
T

Theo Bekkers

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo wrote


>> The exact opposite is true. The increase in life expectancy through
>> improved health far outweighs the risks of riding.

>
> But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
> respond well to
> vigourous exercise.


Sure, if you had no legs it would be more difficult, but people with no legs
still cycle.

> Sure most health improves with cycling, but I keep in mind it could
> kill me,
> or perhaps necessitate a pair of replacement knee joints....


You're dribbling Pat.

> Oppi, like so many of the best athletes ever born had genes which let
> him last.
> But most ppl don't have anything like the same propensity to go such a
> distance
> to 91.
> Most people die 20 years before Oppi, and have all sorts of ailaments
> and limitations.


You have your perceptions which you trot out regularly, ignoring all facts.
So you won't object if I trot out mine. My perception is that my granddad
lived to 96, my dad is currently 93 and in good health. Ergo, everybody
lives longer than Oppie.

Theo
 

EuanB

New Member
Jan 11, 2005
877
0
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Theo Bekkers said:
PiledHigher wrote:
> On Aug 21, 11:16 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:


>> Did you know that most cyclist accidents do not involve another
>> vehicle?


> Bit most fatal ones do involve another vehicle.


I don't know. Do you have some stats on that?

Theo

Don't know about Australia but in the UK 87% of cycling fatalities involve another vehicle. I don't have a cite handy.
 

EuanB

New Member
Jan 11, 2005
877
0
0
Patrick Turner said:
Most pedestrians need belling, and whether they like it or not.

Do remember that pedestrians have priority over you at all times. You have no rights on a shared path.

A bike path or a bike lane is, of course, different.


But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
respond well to vigourous exercise.


Last October I smashed my leg up. I drove the shin bone through the knee in to the thigh bone, shattering the top of the shin bone and caused extensive damage to the meniscous. The term for the injury is a tibial palteau, otherwise known as a fender bender.

I've had a bone graft, most of the meniscous removed from that knee and I've got a plate in my leg.

I've recovered now and both my osteopaht an d phsyio were impressed almost to the point of amazement that my recovery has been a) as complete as it has been and b) as quick as it has been.

Two things were in my favor. Before smashing my leg up I rode lots, 300kms a week, which gave me a good base level of fitness.

As soon as I was physically able, I got back on the bike. One of the best things I could do for my knee, according to my osteopath, my physio and the orthopedic surgeon, was ride my bike lots. The constant low impact movement strengthens and lubricates the joint.

The fact is that if I don't ride for a few days my knee starts to stiffen up. One 30km ride and it's much better.

Cycling is a great activity for people with dodgy joints. Adult tircycles lend mobility to the old and infirm who would otherwise be dependent on cars. Electric bicycles augment this.

I really wish you'd stop guessing and do some research before posting drivel.
 
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PiledHigher

Guest
On Aug 21, 2:52 pm, EuanB <[email protected]
mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
>
> > PiledHigher wrote:
> > > On Aug 21, 11:16 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > >> Did you know that most cyclist accidents do not involve another
> > >> vehicle?

>
> > > Bit most fatal ones do involve another vehicle.

>
> > I don't know. Do you have some stats on that?

>
> > Theo

>
> Don't know about Australia but in the UK 87% of cycling fatalities
> involve another vehicle. I don't have a cite handy.
>
> --
> EuanB


"ATSB ROAD SAFETY REPORT
July 2006
Deaths of cyclists due to road crashes

In the fifteen years from 1991 to 2005, 665 cyclists were killed in
road crashes. In
this period there were 661 road crashes in which a cyclist was killed,
i.e. very few
of these crashes involved the death of more than one cyclist. Based on
unpublished
ABS 'cause of death' data for the period 1997 to 2004 (the latest
period for which
such data are available) it is observed that about 86 per cent of
cyclist deaths
resulted from a collision between their bicycle and a motor vehicle
(Table 2)."
 

ghostgum

New Member
Aug 30, 2005
245
0
0
EuanB said:
Do remember that pedestrians have priority over you at all times. You have no rights on a shared path.


Not quite. Yes, a cyclist must give way to pedestrians on a shared path. However the pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the cyclist (i.e. that pedestrian wasn't allowed to keep moving in front of me until I was forced to stop).


236. Pedestrians not to cause a traffic hazard or obstruction
(1) A pedestrian must not cause a traffic hazard by moving
into the path of a driver.
(2) A pedestrian must not unreasonably obstruct the path of
any driver or another pedestrian.
(3) For subrule (2), a pedestrian does not unreasonably obstruct
the path of another pedestrian only by travelling more slowly
than other pedestrians.
 

cfsmtb

New Member
Apr 11, 2003
4,963
0
0
Theo Bekkers said:
You have your perceptions which you trot out regularly, ignoring all facts.
So you won't object if I trot out mine. My perception is that my granddad
lived to 96, my dad is currently 93 and in good health. Ergo, everybody
lives longer than Oppie.

Ever seen photos of Oppy when he was a slim & trim competitive cyclist, compared to when he became a Liberal pollie? Ergo, staying active is a good thing to keep doing!
 
Z

Zebee Johnstone

Guest
In aus.bicycle on Tue, 21 Aug 2007 15:02:41 +1000
EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> The fact is that if I don't ride for a few days my knee starts to
> stiffen up. One 30km ride and it's much better.


<AOL>

The knee I broke is much happier when I'm riding than it is when I
have to stop for a week.

As am I :)

> Cycling is a great activity for people with dodgy joints. Adult
> tircycles lend mobility to the old and infirm who would otherwise be
> dependent on cars. Electric bicycles augment this.


As long as the bike fits them properly and they know how to ride so as
not to aggravate the problem.

I found that the short cranks helped me for example, and of course the
seat/pedal distance on a bent is way more important than on an
upright.

On the other hand, people with bad backs or wrists or shoulders and
many with bad hips find bents easier than uprights.

Either way, cycling better than no cycling!

Zebee
 
M

Miguel Sanchez

Guest
"EuanB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> Shane Stanley Wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >> Surely the ratio per hour and the ratio per km would be different,

>> no?
>>
>> > No. Contray to popular belief the average speed for utility trips
>> > taken by bicycle is about the same as a utility trip taken by a car,

>> or
>> > indeed quicker.

>>
>> But are the majority of cycling miles utility trips? I would have
>> thought there'd be at least a ratio of something 2:3 between time and
>> distance figures.

>
> I would say so. Most roadies get their miles in commuting to work and
> there are a lot of commuters who don't ride socially.
>
> Read the report.
>
>
>
>> > > > in the UK where you're ten times more likely to

>> die
>> >
>> >> Are there any theories to explain the big difference compared to

>> here?
>>
>> > Not that I'm aware of, although I haven't invested any time in to the
>> > matter. When I was riding in the UK cycling was just another way you
>> > got around and warranted no special consideration.
>> >
>> > If I had to guess I'd pin it on the higher speeds that traffic

>> travels
>> > at in the UK. For any given type of the road the speed limit's are
>> > higher than in Australai.

>>
>> Does this suggest that attitude matters less than road conditions, or
>> is
>> the attitude to cyclists similar in England?

>
> When I was riding in the UK I didn't notice any particular hostility
> towards cyclists, but then Iwas a child or in my teens. Lurking on
> uk.rec.bicycle and uk.transport(?) suggests that there is some
> animosity out there, and then of course there's the ridiculous pieces
> by Jeremey Clarkson.
>
>
> --
> EuanB
>


Dang
 
B

Bean Long

Guest
Theo Bekkers wrote:

> No thanks, it has already been done for me. Hence the figures I quoted. Your
> figures are your perception, nothing to do with reality. I would be amazed
> if Canberra cyclists only accounted for 0.5% of the traffic.
>
> Theo
>


Pedal Power do a "Cordon Count" every year. I'll see if I can dig up any
figures.
--
Bean


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B

Bean Long

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:

> Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.


I believe there was an unfortunate fatality either 2006 or 2005 when a
cyclist was crossing a major road in Tuggeranong from one cycle path to
another... perhaps the cycle paths need to go either over or under the
roads!

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying
 
B

Bean Long

Guest
Patrick Turner wrote:

> Never have I run into a dog.
> I have a bell, and 99.99% of people have their precious animals on
> leashes which
> they tug tightly when they hear a bell.


You must live in a different Canberra to the one I live in! :)

--
Bean

"I've got a bike
You can ride it if you like
It's got a basket
A bell that rings
And things to make it look good
I'd give it to you if I could
But I borrowed it" Pink Floyd

Remove "yourfinger" before replying
 
B

Bean Long

Guest
Tomasso wrote:

> One place I used to work took:
>
> 7 minutes by bike
> 12 minutes running
> 30 minutes walking
> 30 minutes by car (assuming peak hour).
>
> Car had 12 traffic lights to destination and a couple of sneaky one way
> streets (probably could have been quicker if I did it more than a few
> times and found the quicker alleyways).
>
> All other trips crossed Pyrmont Bridge.


These numbers are interesting and are data that non-cyclists can't seem
to get their brains around. I don't have any data for driving to work
cos I've only done it a handfull of times since I came to my current
place of work. Also, I don't walk cos I want to actually get some work
done during the day and not spend my whole day hiking. Nonetheless,
here's my breakdown:

30 min by bike (best time 28 min)
45 min by bus - express route
60 min by bus - via interchange
distance 18 km.

My next door neighbour did a double take the other morning when he asked
where I was riding to. When I told him it only took me 30 min, he just
didn't believe me! He has 3 cars and a fat gut!

--
Bean

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B

Bean Long

Guest
Bean Long wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
>> No thanks, it has already been done for me. Hence the figures I
>> quoted. Your figures are your perception, nothing to do with reality.
>> I would be amazed if Canberra cyclists only accounted for 0.5% of the
>> traffic.
>>
>> Theo

>
> Pedal Power do a "Cordon Count" every year. I'll see if I can dig up any
> figures.


Some data here:

http://tinyurl.com/2j8u2p

Interestingly, if one assumes that Canberra's population is 300,000
(which is close to the mark) and that EVERYONE in Canberra drives their
car to work during the time of the Cordon Count, the number of cyclists
passing through the cordon (which represents Civic and Acton only and
therefore excluding the majority of Canberra) would be 0.6% of all traffic.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying
 
D

Dave

Guest
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:00:41 +1000, Resound wrote:

>> How many people live 10km or 15km from work I wonder? Where I work a
>> lot of people live 20 or so, and with no decent cycle network now the
>> M2's history. Someone from St Ives wants to cycle but there's too
>> much ugliness on the Mona vale Road for him.


I'm assuming that's to North Ryde/Macquarie Park?

Go Telegraph Rd (or Pentecost, or even Burns Rd) to get to Turramurra. Go
down Kissing Pt Rd and through the cycleway at the bottom. Follow the
signs to the Uni, then through. Voila, you're at the Mac. Centre, and
getting to anywhere nearby is pretty easy.

Anyone know of a reasonably easy to access shower in Parramatta?

--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
"Assassination is the extreme form of
censorship." -- George Bernard Shaw
 

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