SA - Road safety program launched with a focus on cyclists



On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 06:50:14 +0000, Dave wrote:

> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:00:41 +1000, Resound wrote:


Excuse me. That should have said Zebee.

--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
There's no point in being grown up if you can't be
childish sometimes.-- Dr. Who
 
Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>> Patrick Turner wrote:
>>
>>> But once you ride only on dedicated off road cycle paths, then the
>>> risk plummets,

>> How so? The majority of cycle accidents don't involve another vehicle.
>> Roadways are filled with very predictable motor vehicle traffic, not those
>> wildly unpredictable pedestrians and dogs.

>


>
>
>>> If Oppie was a young fella of 25 now, would he be seen on the roads?

>> Of course he would, what a silly question.

>
> Maybe he would have played tennis.
>
> Oppi could have been lots of things.
>
> So could you be, were you to live again.
>
> But while watching a mountain stage on TV,
> when Cadel was struggling upwards,
> I distincly saw a figure briefly,
> and riding close alongside,
> and wispering some encouragment,
> 'twas the ghost of Oppie,
> and then he was gone...


That wasn't the ghost of Oppie, that was one of those crazy drunk
spectators yelling at him.

Dorfus
 
Shane Stanley wrote:
>
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Patrick Turner <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
> > read.

>
> With respect, you're posting an awful lot here and presumably expecting
> others to read it; perhaps a bit less typing time and a bit more reading
> time would be a sound investment.


Have ye not much for me to read that ye wrote?

I spend half my life reading and studying and figuring.

Cycling is only a recrational thing for me, and no amount of reading up
on researched factoids based on overseas experiences of others will
change what cycling and life is for me here right now.

And I think that compared to many other people
whose pots I read and whose newspaper letters and articles I read,
that mine are rather brief.

I will however read that thing I said I had no time for rightaway,
and look for things applicable to my situation.

But no matter how much I knew, I ain't gonna fix Sydney's cycling
problems.

What did you make out of reading what i said I didn't have time for?

How much do you read?

What flows from your reading?

Patrick Turner.


>
> --
> Shane Stanley
 
EuanB wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner Wrote:
> > Just stating about what I observe.
> >
> > The probability of error is huge, and the truth could be either way,
> > IMHO.

>
> The probability is not huge, it's four times that of a motorist and
> that probability is so small most people don't even think about it.
> Four times a very small thing is still a small thing.


I got a vote here for 4.

Anyone else like to nominate a number which could be voted on.

I'd say Maybe 20.


>
> >
> > But last month I did have to wait 1/2 an hour for a taxi outside the
> > ABC
> > headquaters on NthBourne,
> > and only a very small number of cyclists rode past, maybe 3 or 4, while
> > hundreds of motorists
> > went past.

>
> Ever considered that cyclists may use different roads?


Sure.

But on those other roads, there are also motorists, and the % of
cyclists
amoung them may either be smaller, or greater than NthB Ave.

The simple test is, pick any road you like, and find the ratio of bikes
to cars etc.

Someone said Perth has 7% of its traffic on a bike.

I'd say here in the ACT maybe its 1%.

This is the average % all year, 24/7.

Cotter road, october sunday morning between 7am and 11am, maybe its 50%.

Maybe that's the busiest road for bikes I can think of, but elsewhere
the bike % is so low its almost invisible.

Patrick Turner.

> --
> EuanB
 
EuanB wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner Wrote:
> > EuanB wrote:
> > >
> > > Shane Stanley Wrote:
> > > > In article <[email protected]>,
> > > > EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Per 100,000 hrs exposure and per 100,000 kms travelled you're
> > > > > aproximately four times more likely to die on the road as a

> > cyclist.
> > > >
> > > > Surely the ratio per hour and the ratio per km would be different,

> > no?
> > > No. Contray to popular belief the average speed for utility trips
> > > taken by bicycle is about the same as a utility trip taken by a car,

> > or
> > > indeed quicker. It takes me 70 minutes to ride the thirty kilometers

> > in
> > > to work, the best I've done in a car is fifty.

> >
> > Gees, your place of commuting is indeed bad.
> > The longest trip to get to work here could be about 45 minutes by car,
> > and it'd take at least twice than by bike.
> >
> > But you forget one factor.
> >
> > Add in the time taken to earn the money to pay for the motoring.
> > THEN the average time taken to do a distance becomes much greater,
> > and the bicycle wins easily.

>
> No, I haven't forgotten that factor.


But you didn't factor it into above calcs for journey time,
or to calculate average speed.

> That predicates that you don't
> own a car, which costs on average 250 bucks to run.


Well I have a car, 1986 Ford Laser, 1.6L, a true POS type car,
but suits me perfectly.

I think its costs a total of approx aud $20 per week to run,
and maybe I do 150km.


> ride to commute own a car as well, I'm not one of those although I have
> ready access to my wife's car.
>
> Plus there's the `free' exercise time and that thing few of us do these
> days, time to oneself to think. I do a lot of thinking on my bike.


Fetch the heart pills, ahhh, the man says he thinks!!! :)

Its difficult to think and maintain a hard on, but to ride and
think is another thing, especially up a long hard hill.

Of course it all depends upon what one thinks about...

>
> >
> > > > in the UK where you're ten times more likely to die
> > >
> > > Are there any theories to explain the big difference compared to

> here?
> > Not that I'm aware of, although I haven't invested any time in to the
> > matter. When I was riding in the UK cycling was just another way you
> > got around and warranted no special consideration.
> >
> > If I had to guess I'd pin it on the higher speeds that traffic

> travels
> > at in the UK. For any given type of the road the speed limit's are
> > higher than in Australai.

>
> We have 60k in most built up areas, 50k on smaller suburb roads,
> and up to 110k on freeways.
>
> Between 30 - 40 miles an hour on suburban roads, 60 miles an hour on
> arterials and 70 miles an hour on dual carraigeways / motorways.


Its about the same here.

Patrick Turner.
>
> --
> EuanB
 
Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> > There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
> >
> > Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> > but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> > My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.

>
> >> If you have an interest, check the body of evidence at
> >> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

> >
> > Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
> > read.

>
> I know what I know, don't confuse me with facts?


Well I have some idea, but reports based on OS experiences leave room
for a lot of doubt.

Just because someone presents me with a a report on the existance
of "weapons of mass cystruction", it don't mean I am ever going to
believe it straightaway.


>
> > I think the bike lanes on roads make a huge difference, ie, a smooth
> > strip between gutter and car lane at least
> > 1.2M wide and with an unbroken white line places the cyclist at
> > probably 1/10 of the normal risk.
> > I remember the days before the lanes went in here, and it definately
> > was far less safe.

>
> In reality or in perception?


OK, my reality is mine, right, and not necessarily able to be
shared by any other cyclist.

But I know the before and after
effects of installing cycle lanes.

For me the lanes are a step forward, a great idea,
and maybe last month when a headstem broke, and I fell off,
i would have been run over had following traffic been unable to stop.
But no, there was no following motorists, because I was in the bike
lane,
and thus to my mind a terrible complication of breaking
my steering was avoided.


>
> > But there are many who don't like breathing all the car exhaust fumes
> > and dust from ground up brake and clutch linings.
> >
> > If yer don't get rundown, yer get lung cancer.

>
> You do know that cyclists breathe in many times more air than motorists?
>
> Theo


All the more reason why they are more likely to get contaminents
to enter their lungs, where perhaps they'll lurk for years.

But when I train with Cadel, he manages to breathe only slightly
while I suck in about half the world's air supply to keep up.

Patrick Turner.
 
Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > But you forget one factor.
> >
> > Add in the time taken to earn the money to pay for the motoring.
> > THEN the average time taken to do a distance becomes much greater,
> > and the bicycle wins easily.

>
> Against a car, yes, but a 250cc motorcycle is cheaper to run on that basis.


But are not some 250cc bikes rather pricey?

I went through about 9 motorbikes between age 18 and 32.
I didn't drive until I was 28.
Most m'bikes were quite cheap second hand.
The last was BMWR75/5 that I had from 25 to 32, and i did 100,000miles.
I had saved up and paid cash for that, and it had 9,000 miles on it and
I paid about 1/2 the new price.
At 32, I sold it for the same number of $
which was about 1/2 the real price had been when I bought it.
Overall, the BM was cheap to run.
I had Honda90cc, then a 100cc while I saved.

Great for sydney traffic.

I saved 11 grand between 23 and 28, about equal to saving
about $120,000 now, from my average weekly earnings,
and while avoiding a lot of the extravagant stoopid spending habits of
most
of my peer group.

I bought a house easily when i needed to.

If I'd cycled, the travel would have taken a lot more out of me,
and taken time. From 22 to 27, I went to night tech to get
a Building Certificate. So I'd work 6 days a week on building sites,
and study at night, so for me there was no time or any real benefit in
riding
a bicycle, and not much saving to be had. But I didn't spend big
on cars, grog, food, cigarettes, racecourses, or dumb women who needed
huge funding.

What ppl get in wages is largely determined by the average cost
of living, and if everyone else demands a huge pay packet for
either extravagances, or for the expensive but noble action of
raising kids and buying a house, then if you do niether
then you can save a lot of dough.

>
> > We have 60k in most built up areas, 50k on smaller suburb roads,
> > and up to 110k on freeways.

>
> And? When I was riding 12 kms to work in 25 mins, it was as quick as the car
> and all 60 km/h zones. Why was that?


Often I have beaten buses going from Watson where I live to civic,
but mainly because they stop more often.

If I drive to Woden in peak hour, its much shorter than riding.

Canberra just hasn't got to the "silly point" where manual transport
is slower than the machine transport, as has happened in other cities,
and which makes the bicycle so attractive, if you don't mind the
fumes riding past stalled cars on their left.

When I came to the ACT from Sydney, I was used to 1.8 hrs of travel
to/from work on my BWM m'bike.

I travelled about 20minutes here.

In '78 I did have to travel to build a mail delivery centre
in Tuggeranong, 32 km which took well under 3/4 of an hour, each way.
At a cycling average of 25kph, that trip takes 1.5 hours.

The 30 yr old guys who race might average 32kph, and they get there a
bit quicker,
but they are going to travel for much longer than I would travel
in a car.

Since 1978, the trip time from here to the same place maybe takes
10mins longer by motor, and at 25kph, the bike takes the same time of
1.5hrs.

I can still manage this but I wouldn't like to have to do it 5 days a
week;
its a total of 320km a week, and frankly I would wear out.
My knees are not the same as Cadel's, let alone Oppie's,
and soon I would be a physical wreck after 320km a week at age 60.
I'd be so tired, and unable to think straight.

When I raced I knew guys who did ride 40km a day to and from work
and they were very hard to beat in races.

We can dream about beating the system in many ways.
Actually beating it is another thing.

I will stick with the affordable luxury of owning and running an
old Laser.

I don't think anything is as economically viable as catching a bus to
work and back.

But I work at home, so don't commute for work at all.
I avoid a large cost.

Patrick Turner.









>
> Theo
 

> >
> > See for yourself. Go sit on a busy road and count the cars and
> > bicycles that go past on one side of the road for 15 minutes, then do
> > the same for
> > 15 minutes on the other side.

>
> No thanks, it has already been done for me. Hence the figures I quoted. Your
> figures are your perception, nothing to do with reality. I would be amazed
> if Canberra cyclists only accounted for 0.5% of the traffic.
>
> Theo


OK, but look, I said 0.5%. someone else says 5%, up near Perth's
figures,
if indeed they could be believed.

The difference between 0.5 and 5 is a factor of 10,
hardly much in statistics, because 0.5% or 5% is a small faction of
anything.

Pedal Power did a recent report on cyclist traffic which can be seen at

http://www.pedalpower.org.au/advocacy/docs/pedal power cordon count report 2004-2006.pdf

They conclude the numbers of cyclists has been rapidly increasing.

No mention has been made for motorists travelling to and from the same
"cordonned"
area where cyclists were observed and numbered while coming and going.

I think Pedal Power produced the report to
promote positive thinking amoung pollies and planners with regard to
cyclist amenities.

Great, and very wonderful to be sure, but cyclists are still a tiny
minority, and one mainly ignored,
and unless there were far more cyclists and a few more of them being
killed, nothing
much is ever going to be spent on them.

If there were 5% of road users being cyclists along NthB Ave, then
any time I road down there I'd expect to see several riders in the
distance, and several behind me.

And same thing on the other side of the Ave, with lots of ppl coming
past.
But I often ride to Civic over 7km and I see not a single other cyclist.
I'm the only curmudgeon to hog all that space the drivers are so furious
about.

But I see hundreds of cars, lots of lorries, and a few buses.

Patrick Turner.
 
Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > I agree Theo. That has been my experience.
> > Twice in 12months I fell off because of a recently washed out ridge
> > crossing onto a cycle path,
> > and then because of a breaking head stem on a main road. Fortunately I
> > fell like a sack of spuds
> > onto the cycle lane, and without following traffic which may well have
> > run right over me otherwise.
> >
> > 15 years ago i also fell a total of several times, all self inflicted,
> > once clipping a rear wheel in front in a bunch. Then twice I couldn't
> > avoid
> > other dizzy brained cyclists, once with a careless school boy about
> > 13, and again with a
> > confused Chinese girl student. The resulting head on crashes were
> > bloody awful,
> > but not one fall or crash was life threatening, just a mild nuisance,
> > like being tackled hard in a game of footy.
> >
> > That used to happen many times in a game to me.
> >
> > Last week I slowed right down to pass a young couple with a 3 year old
> > son on a small bike.
> > My sixth sense told me to slow, because the parents were not looking
> > very aware, even when i rang a bell.
> > Just as I slowed, little johnny zoomed across into my wheel, even
> > though I'd swung
> > out a couple of meters into the grass, and and I had to stop dead,
> > and I rolled off the bike onto grass
> > to avoid falling on top of the kid, who had no idea he's been a bit
> > of a nuisance.
> >
> > Be those saturday ppl had a right to be there, and I have a duty of
> > care,
> > and so I had a chuckle to the parents, "perhaps i will leave it to you
> > to tell him something"
> > and off i went, green-kneed, but quite unhurt.
> >
> > Lucky such cycle paths exist, with nice soft grass each side,
> > and generally one can swing out into the grass
> > if something happens, generally there is no harm done.

>
> So, in all your years cycling you've had many accidents, all but one
> apparently off the roads. You were never hit by a car, but you're convinced
> it's the roads and cars that are the dangers to you. ROTFL.
>
> Reality check time, young Patrick.


Reality is that I cycled 110,000 km to experience a small number of
incidents, none life threatening.

If you were to examine hospital records, or the records kept by the
Canberra Cycling Club,
you will see what damage has been sustained to riders from motorists.
Quite a few guys have been killed and hospitalised for long periods.

None of what I have experienced ever led to a hospital, just a box of
bandaids and some
Detol, and a 3 day rest before I rode again.

Many ppl who have had such things happen to then as I have would
want to shut up about it; but I bet **** doesn't just happen to me.

I just don't want **** with a car involved to happen.
When it does, it sure can be fatal. And the
records would show shite surely does happen.

While a member of the CCC over 6 years between '86 and 92,
there were always a couple of dudes recovering after broken bones.
And often from accidents with cars while training on roads.
The local Iron Mike race was named after someone killed,
and I think there is a Robert Chorley trophy race,
and I knew Bob well before he was wiped out by a van.

The CCC had 200 members then, and if you were to take any random slice
of 200 ppl
who didn't cycle, I doubt there would be always two who were recovering
from motor accidents of any kind.

Laugh all you like, but I AM AFRAID when I am on a road, any road, where
a car lurks,
especially when that car and I have been compelled to use the same
3 metre wide lane.


Patrick Turner.

> Theo
 
Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > Theo wrote

>
> >> The exact opposite is true. The increase in life expectancy through
> >> improved health far outweighs the risks of riding.

> >
> > But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
> > respond well to
> > vigourous exercise.

>
> Sure, if you had no legs it would be more difficult, but people with no legs
> still cycle.
>
> > Sure most health improves with cycling, but I keep in mind it could
> > kill me,
> > or perhaps necessitate a pair of replacement knee joints....

>
> You're dribbling Pat.


You sound both foolhardy and under-educated to say that..
Not to mention plain disrespectful.

I know I was not born with very good knees.
I gave up cycling altogether in '92 because of persistent knee pain.
I knew guys who trained much further and harder than I did and they
never had the slightest
trouble with joints.

After a long rest of 15 years and a small operation, I am on the bike
again,
but no racing, and only 120k a week instead of 300k.
So far so good, but after the last few weeks of quite cool weather I
feel the same old
pain returning, and I may not be able to continue,
so I may have to do something else to stay fit, such as canooeing,
or swimming.

Have you ever been forced away from something you like
because your body cannot keep the appointments listed by the brain?

The fact is that many ppl could not and most definately would not ride a
bicycle, ever.

And there are lots and lots of reasons, apart from not having been born
with ideal knees for cycling.
>
> > Oppi, like so many of the best athletes ever born had genes which let
> > him last.
> > But most ppl don't have anything like the same propensity to go such a
> > distance
> > to 91.
> > Most people die 20 years before Oppi, and have all sorts of ailaments
> > and limitations.

>
> You have your perceptions which you trot out regularly, ignoring all facts.
> So you won't object if I trot out mine. My perception is that my granddad
> lived to 96, my dad is currently 93 and in good health. Ergo, everybody
> lives longer than Oppie.


When your number comes up, just joke with the nurses and say goodbye
all,
and hello nothing.

I could say you have your perceptions which you trot out regularly,
ignoring all facts.
But I won't say that. See, I haven't said that.

Both your two nominated relatives and some of mine have exceeded normal
life expectancy.
My mum is 91. Still living at home independantly.
But my father died at 60 from cancer.
One of my sisters died at 60, 18mths ago, of cancer.
Nathan Pritican, the guy who wrote a book about health died
at 70 despite all his ultra healthy activities. From leukemia.

The regular use of bicycles DOES NOT gurantee you will live to 91, or
100, whatever.
Maybe it delays the onset of diabetes, and heart-lung problems.

Plenty of people have never gone even near a bicycle, and worked in an
office
and lived a long life which may not have been much extended by serious
exercize.

The average age of death in Oz is much less than 91.

I think what you call a perception of yours needs to be challenged.

Patrick Turner.


>
> Theo
 
On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:41:05 GMT, Patrick Turner
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Often I have beaten buses going from Watson where I live to civic,
>but mainly because they stop more often.
>
>If I drive to Woden in peak hour, its much shorter than riding.


Ah, your Canberra isn't my Canberra. You actually have a grid of
somewhat straight back streets. At least in Aranda, my trunk roads are
straight. I found a straight backway using link paths. Never again,
way too scarey! Especially accessing the path on the outside of a
corner. I'm be encouraged to cross where I can't see what's coming?
No thanks. Newer suburbs are even worse.
 
Patrick Turner said:
> You do know that cyclists breathe in many times more air than motorists?


All the more reason why they are more likely to get contaminents
to enter their lungs, where perhaps they'll lurk for years.

But when I train with Cadel, he manages to breathe only slightly
while I suck in about half the world's air supply to keep up.
Yet more drivel.

This paper http://www.icta.org/doc/In-car%20pollution%20report.pdf clearly shows that motorists breathe in many more contaminants than cyclists and pedestrians.

Time and time again you're pointed to studies, bodies of work and references which adress the points you raise. Time and time again you refuse to read them, preferring your own ill founded perceptions.

I'm done with you, better things to do with my time. Ride happy, ride safe.
 
EuanB wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner Wrote:
> >
> > Most pedestrians need belling, and whether they like it or not.

>
> Do remember that pedestrians have priority over you at all times. You
> have no rights on a shared path.


Sure, but hardly anyone here acts to obstruct a cyclist, so they leave
him/her some room to pass, ie, they move left a bit automatically
when they hear a bell, and safe passage for all occurs.
Sharing means being considerate, and giving half the road to others.


>
> A bike path or a bike lane is, of course, different.
>
> > But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
> > respond well to vigourous exercise.

>
> Last October I smashed my leg up. I drove the shin bone through the
> knee in to the thigh bone, shattering the top of the shin bone and
> caused extensive damage to the meniscous. The term for the injury is a
> tibial palteau, otherwise known as a fender bender.


Ahhh....
>
> I've had a bone graft, most of the meniscous removed from that knee and
> I've got a plate in my leg.


Ahhh...
>
> I've recovered now and both my osteopaht an d phsyio were impressed
> almost to the point of amazement that my recovery has been a) as
> complete as it has been and b) as quick as it has been.
>
> Two things were in my favor. Before smashing my leg up I rode lots,
> 300kms a week, which gave me a good base level of fitness.


How old are you? 25?

I broke a cruciate ligament and main ankle bone at 19 on a motorbike.
No more running for me, but I was slow as a wet wicket anyway.
I came last in many foot races at school.
I loathed footy, and swimming was hell.
I liked cycling. Everyone tried to stop me.

I healed the ankle in 6 weeks, and went back to work
as apprentice carpenter after 8 weeks.
I worked "on the tools" for 30 years.


>
> As soon as I was physically able, I got back on the bike. One of the
> best things I could do for my knee, according to my osteopath, my
> physio and the orthopedic surgeon, was ride my bike lots. The constant
> low impact movement strengthens and lubricates the joint.


Sure, but when I cycled 300km a week up to age 45 I was forced off the
bike
with really bad pain in both knees. Pain subsided once I stopped riding.
But After another 5 years I couldn't work in the building trade any
more, and
switched to lowly paid craft work.
Almost basket weaving.

The knee with the still intact cruciates was the first to give some
really bad pain, and I began seeing more doctors.
I eventually went onto VIOXX for awhile and this drug nearly killed me
with a heart problem.
My mum had taken it for 4 years without problems.
See
http://arthritis.about.com/od/vioxx/a/kaiserheartrisk.htm
But now I am taking nothing except a good diet of mainly vegetables.

After the VIOXX bother I had a cartlidge trimming op, 3 years ago,
and I began back cycling again 12 moths ago.

But not 300km a week at age 60.

The recent cold winter is bringing some pain again after a pretty pain
free year.

If its gets worse, the wheels may have to be hung up again if
cannot even sustain low intensity rides; ie, the pain
just gets worse and worse.
I was booked for 2 knee joints for 18 mths.
The docs reckoned it was the only solution, but one that would not be
permanent.
Even the nurses at the hospital said when i had the cartlidges done that
I'd be back in 2 years for the joints.

Maybe I will have to re-book. I just have no idea how things will go for
the future.

Having prosthesis joints invloves a failure rate of 25% for all joints
in Oz, especially knees, and so one can have a joint done and need it to
be re-done
in 2 years instead of getting about 15 years use from the joint.
One of my clients told me he was on his third hip joint, but he was 75.
Poor bugger could hardly walk.
Lowest joint failure rate appears to be in Sweeden where its 7%.
But now they have a 'Joint Register' going in Oz like Sweeden, and found
which
brands of joints tend to last the shortest time in ppl.
One brand rarely lasted more than 2 years, so they banned that one,
and it was more expensive than others that lasted longer.
The operation for replacing a prosthesis is much more difficult than
doing one for the first time.

I may have inherited my mother's knees, and she never ever ran anywhere
or cycled,
and was knock kneed. She's now 91, but never ever could have been
athletic.
My father set a record at the school for the mile in about 1924.
He had a very fine looking physique and in the 1920s rode to Cairns and
back
from Sydney. He died at 60 from cancer. Being athletic doesn't insulate
you
against early death.
My sister who died recently needed both hip joints replaced by age 55.

So although the joints we were given at birth go for a long time,
its not at all unusual that some wear right out early, and
regardless of what you do.

And what you do can make things either better, or worse.

> The fact is that if I don't ride for a few days my knee starts to
> stiffen up. One 30km ride and it's much better.
>
> Cycling is a great activity for people with dodgy joints. Adult
> tircycles lend mobility to the old and infirm who would otherwise be
> dependent on cars. Electric bicycles augment this.
>
> I really wish you'd stop guessing and do some research before posting
> drivel.


You are no better.

I know what I say is just my opinion, and true for me until
otherwise proved to be otherwise.

Discussion is about considering opinions, and sharing experience.

Some ppl say I dribble, or say that what i post is drivel.
But they read my posts right through to the end, they can't resist.

What does this say of people who like dribble and drivel to read?
Why do they complain?

You would be very lucky to have sustained such a miserably bad
knee problem and then still be able to cycle.

Not everyone has the same luck.

Not by a long shot.

Meanwhile, and IMHO, I would say keep riding if it brings relief,
but if it hurts while you ride, and hurts when you stop,
and hurts after a night's good sleep,
and hurts more when you ride and then more after,
maybe you will be forced off the bike and to some other
health/pain management scheme.

Don't be surpised if this happens, because it happened to me,
and others, and I didn't even break anything.

Patrick Turner.




c
>
> --
> EuanB
 
Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > Never have I run into a dog.
> > I have a bell, and 99.99% of people have their precious animals on
> > leashes which
> > they tug tightly when they hear a bell.

>
> You must live in a different Canberra to the one I live in! :)


Maybe you bean long time in Canberra, and me been short time :)

Dogs not on leashes are a worry, but I have not hit one yet.

I might be quick witted enough to see what could happen
and adjust speed accordingly.

Never barrel on through a situation you feel could be dodgy.
That's when **** happens :-[

Parick Turner.


>
> --
> Bean
>
> "I've got a bike
> You can ride it if you like
> It's got a basket
> A bell that rings
> And things to make it look good
> I'd give it to you if I could
> But I borrowed it" Pink Floyd
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying
 
"Patrick Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In most Oz city roads, sharing narrow lanes on busy roads with oafish
> drivers is a nightmare.
>
> But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
>
> Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.
> Patrick Turner.


It's not what's on the path that'll kill you (although dodging children, dogs and other oblivious pedestrians walking 4 abreast drives me up the wall when I try it) it's what's on the road at the uncontrolled intersections between bike path and road that'll do it. I don't have a citation (although I suspect Euan might) but from memory it's entering traffic from a bike path that is most dangerous and which accounts for a significant percentage of injuries and deaths for cyclists.
 
Bean Long wrote:
>
> Bean Long wrote:
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
> >
> >> No thanks, it has already been done for me. Hence the figures I
> >> quoted. Your figures are your perception, nothing to do with reality.
> >> I would be amazed if Canberra cyclists only accounted for 0.5% of the
> >> traffic.
> >>
> >> Theo

> >
> > Pedal Power do a "Cordon Count" every year. I'll see if I can dig up any
> > figures.

>
> Some data here:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2j8u2p
>
> Interestingly, if one assumes that Canberra's population is 300,000
> (which is close to the mark) and that EVERYONE in Canberra drives their
> car to work during the time of the Cordon Count, the number of cyclists
> passing through the cordon (which represents Civic and Acton only and
> therefore excluding the majority of Canberra) would be 0.6% of all traffic.


The trick question is, how many cars are there and how many cyclists
are there on Canberra's roads at any given time on average 24/7?

There are now around 110,000 households in Canberra, and about 330,000
ppl,
and don't tell me 330,000 cars could be driven towards Civic if everyone
wanted to.

Patrick Turner.


>
> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying
 
"EuanB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Resound Wrote:
>> I cycle 15km each way at the moment, but my last commute was nigh on
>> 20km. I
>> did it pretty easily and I'm a lazy fat boy.

>
> I'm lazier than you :p
>
>
> --
> EuanB
>



Ooh, that sounds like a challenge!
 
Dave wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:00:41 +1000, Resound wrote:
>
> >> How many people live 10km or 15km from work I wonder? Where I work a
> >> lot of people live 20 or so, and with no decent cycle network now the
> >> M2's history. Someone from St Ives wants to cycle but there's too
> >> much ugliness on the Mona vale Road for him.

>
> I'm assuming that's to North Ryde/Macquarie Park?
>
> Go Telegraph Rd (or Pentecost, or even Burns Rd) to get to Turramurra. Go
> down Kissing Pt Rd and through the cycleway at the bottom. Follow the
> signs to the Uni, then through. Voila, you're at the Mac. Centre, and
> getting to anywhere nearby is pretty easy.
>
> Anyone know of a reasonably easy to access shower in Parramatta?


If desperate, jump into local nearby river.

Patrick Turner.

>
> --
> Dave Hughes | [email protected]
> "Assassination is the extreme form of
> censorship." -- George Bernard Shaw
 
Dorfus Dippintush wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> >
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
> >> Patrick Turner wrote:
> >>
> >>> But once you ride only on dedicated off road cycle paths, then the
> >>> risk plummets,
> >> How so? The majority of cycle accidents don't involve another vehicle.
> >> Roadways are filled with very predictable motor vehicle traffic, not those
> >> wildly unpredictable pedestrians and dogs.

> >

>
> >
> >
> >>> If Oppie was a young fella of 25 now, would he be seen on the roads?
> >> Of course he would, what a silly question.

> >
> > Maybe he would have played tennis.
> >
> > Oppi could have been lots of things.
> >
> > So could you be, were you to live again.
> >
> > But while watching a mountain stage on TV,
> > when Cadel was struggling upwards,
> > I distincly saw a figure briefly,
> > and riding close alongside,
> > and wispering some encouragment,
> > 'twas the ghost of Oppie,
> > and then he was gone...

>
> That wasn't the ghost of Oppie, that was one of those crazy drunk
> spectators yelling at him.


Said grey figure was on Malvern Star.

Patrick Turner.
>
> Dorfus
 

> Resound wrote:
>
>
>
> "Patrick Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In most Oz city roads, sharing narrow lanes on busy roads with

> oafish
> > drivers is a nightmare.
> >
> > But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> > There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
> >
> > Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> > but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> > My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.
> > Patrick Turner.


> It's not what's on the path that'll kill you (although dodging
> children, dogs and other oblivious pedestrians walking 4 abreast
> drives me up the wall when I try it)


I've got used to the human/dog obstructions.

>it's what's on the road at the
> uncontrolled intersections between bike path and road that'll do it. I
> don't have a citation (although I suspect Euan might) but from memory
> it's entering traffic from a bike path that is most dangerous and
> which accounts for a significant percentage of injuries and deaths for
> cyclists.


OK, but here one has to enter traffic with care.
One has to watch like a hawk what's happening wherever a bike path
crosses a road. Its the cyclists responsibility to avoid a prang.
If I ride right across town, about 45k, and try to stay on as many
cycle paths as possible, then about 15% is perhaps on roads with bike
lanes,
and maybe there are 20 places where I have to cross roads.
I must stop and start a lot. I have to look around and double check.
One error, and its goodbye charlie.

The risk taken by staying on paths 85% of the time is much less than if
stayed on roads all the time, even with cycle lanes.

I once used to ride 135km from Watson to Corin Dam and back, a heck of a
ride, maybe I'd be out for
5 hours, and mostly on narrow country roads in the hills behind
Canberra.
But that's where a few ppl have been killed, despite traffic that isn't
busy.

The fact is that there IS RISK everywhere one goes.

Take care,

Patrick Turner.
 

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