SA - Road safety program launched with a focus on cyclists

[Patrick Turner]

Aeek wrote:
>
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 10:41:05 GMT, Patrick Turner
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Often I have beaten buses going from Watson where I live to civic,
> >but mainly because they stop more often.
> >
> >If I drive to Woden in peak hour, its much shorter than riding.
>
> Ah, your Canberra isn't my Canberra. You actually have a grid of
> somewhat straight back streets. At least in Aranda, my trunk roads are
> straight. I found a straight backway using link paths. Never again,
> way too scarey! Especially accessing the path on the outside of a
> corner. I'm be encouraged to cross where I can't see what's coming?
> No thanks. Newer suburbs are even worse.

So what your're saying is that all the windy bendy roundy go
street layouts are a PITA.
Well yeah, and motorists also can't see around corners.
They tend to go slower.

As long as one is aware of what a motorist cannot see, you'll be OK.

I am quite happiest riding from the lake up to Cook and that part on the
cycle
paths and the tunnels under the main roads. Tunnels need to be
approached with caution because
someone might be on the wrong side and you won't react in time if you
go too fast. So slow down.

I find Canberra's cycle paths to be quite tolerable. But I have no idea
of what cycle paths are like elsewhere on the globe because I never
travel.
So I cannot know how they could be drastically improved in the best way.
I don't have a manual for cycle path implementaion policies.

I am used to the paths, and I don't expect them to be perfect.
I'm thinking of getting a mountain bike, but methinks my knees wouldn't
agree.

And in Aranda and Cook there's lots of hills, and
I don't let myself descend too fast because I wouldn't be able to stop
fast if I needed to for a motorist who didn't see me.

But one doesn't get fit descending hills, so
braking on descents doesn't matter.

Red Hill is a nasty little steep climb a kilometre long.
Anyone freewheeling down with no brakes has to pass the exit to the golf
course
1/2 way, and then try to stop at the roundabout at the bottom.
The two things are potential dangers, but not if you apply gentle
braking
all the way down the mountain.
I thought I was heating my brakes a lot, but after coming down one day
I felt the brakes and they were quite cool, and no rim heat.
The rim acts as a large air cooled heatsink.

I have never felt in danger cycling around the back streets of Aranda,
Cook, and Hawker
just to get the benefits of the hill climbing, and I've never reached
your conclusions
about paths in the general area. Its a nice part of Canberra, and
usually very little traffic.
But I try to keep off Belconnen Way though.

Patrick Turner.

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> The trick question is, how many cars are there and how many cyclists
> are there on Canberra's roads at any given time on average 24/7?
>
> There are now around 110,000 households in Canberra, and about 330,000
> ppl,
> and don't tell me 330,000 cars could be driven towards Civic if everyone
> wanted to.

This is just my point Pat. There wouldn't be that many cars heading to
Civic at any one time. Hence, cylists are clearly a lot more than 0.5%
of total traffic just heading into Civic of a morning between 7:30 and
9:00. Unfortunatley PP don't collect data for other traffic but it seems
clear that there is a substantial and growing number of cyclists on
Canberra's roads during peak periods.


Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> I spend half my life reading and studying and figuring.

And the other half posting to a.b?

> And I think that compared to many other people
> whose pots I read and whose newspaper letters and articles I read,
> that mine are rather brief.

Maybe the case for newspaper letters, but certainly not for a.b. We all
have rather short attention spans around here!

> How much do you read?

As little as possible

> What flows from your reading?

A whopping headache usually!

--
Bean


Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> The average age of death in Oz is much less than 91.

The question is clearly what is the average age at death (as you put it)
for the average Australian who doesn't ride a bike, compared to the
average Australian who rides a bike. Sure, it's no gurantee that it will
make you live longer but the hope is that on average a cyclists
longevity is increased over his fat-arsed compatriots.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> stuff about his knees

Not to sound too flippant Pat, but a good series of appropriate
stretches could well help. Most of us have suffered knee pain of some
sort as a result of cycling and in most cases it's down to tight ITB's
or other knee realted ligaments and muscles. I'm just recovering from 2
months off the bike due to knee pain now.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> Never barrel on through a situation you feel could be dodgy.
> That's when **** happens :-[

Agreed absolutely.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Theo Bekkers]

EuanB wrote:
> Patrick Turner Wrote:

>> But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
>> respond well to vigourous exercise.

> Last October I smashed my leg up. I drove the shin bone through the
> knee in to the thigh bone, shattering the top of the shin bone and
> caused extensive damage to the meniscous. The term for the injury is
> a tibial palteau, otherwise known as a fender bender.

Ouch, and ouch.

> Cycling is a great activity for people with dodgy joints. Adult
> tircycles lend mobility to the old and infirm who would otherwise be
> dependent on cars. Electric bicycles augment this.

> I really wish you'd stop guessing and do some research before posting
> drivel.

Not much chance of that.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

cfsmtb wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
>>
>> The exact opposite is true. The increase in life expectancy through
>> improved
>> health far outweighs the risks of riding.
>
> Linky >> http://www.cyclingpromotion.com.au/content/view/204/147/

Interesting that Aussie Rules hhas twice the hospitalisation rate of rugby.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

PiledHigher wrote:
> On Aug 21, 2:52 pm, EuanB <EuanB.2vn...@no-
> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
>>
>>> PiledHigher wrote:
>>>> On Aug 21, 11:16 am, "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]>
>>>> wrote:
>>
>>>>> Did you know that most cyclist accidents do not involve another
>>>>> vehicle?
>>
>>>> Bit most fatal ones do involve another vehicle.
>>
>>> I don't know. Do you have some stats on that?
>>
>>> Theo
>>
>> Don't know about Australia but in the UK 87% of cycling fatalities
>> involve another vehicle. I don't have a cite handy.
>>
>> --
>> EuanB
>
> "ATSB ROAD SAFETY REPORT
> July 2006
> Deaths of cyclists due to road crashes
>
> In the fifteen years from 1991 to 2005, 665 cyclists were killed in
> road crashes. In
> this period there were 661 road crashes in which a cyclist was killed,
> i.e. very few
> of these crashes involved the death of more than one cyclist. Based on
> unpublished
> ABS 'cause of death' data for the period 1997 to 2004 (the latest
> period for which
> such data are available) it is observed that about 86 per cent of
> cyclist deaths
> resulted from a collision between their bicycle and a motor vehicle
> (Table 2)."

Thanks for that. Pretty much what I expected.

Theo

 

[EuanB]

EuanB wrote:
> Patrick Turner Wrote:

>> But not if you have dodgy knees or some other ailment that does not
>> respond well to vigourous exercise.

> Last October I smashed my leg up. I drove the shin bone through the
> knee in to the thigh bone, shattering the top of the shin bone and
> caused extensive damage to the meniscous. The term for the injury is
> a tibial palteau, otherwise known as a fender bender.

Ouch, and ouch.

Not at the time. Drunk as a lord, it's still a mystery as to how I actually did it. Bikesoiler will tell you it was to get out of the working bee the following morning (kidding, he hasn't intimated anything of the sort. Suspiscious timing on my part though ).

Nope, I was an idiot, had too much Beligian beer and PFO'd. No sympathy for me please, save it for someone deserving.

In retrospect it was quite a fascinating experience, the muscle wastage, the after effects of aneasthetic, rehabilitation. One I'd happily forgo but all in all it wasn't that bad an experience and I've a wicked scar. Shame I haven't a wicked story to go with it ;-)

[1] (actually Bikesoiler did mention that if I'd stuck with Goat it wouldn't have happened and this was the micro-brewerie gods' way of castigating me for my desertion)

 

[Dave]

On Tue, 21 Aug 2007 13:10:10 +0000, Patrick Turner wrote:

> If desperate, jump into local nearby river.

Then how do I wash off the ferry?

--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
"First things first, but not necessarily in that order." - The Doctor

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > The trick question is, how many cars are there and how many cyclists
> > are there on Canberra's roads at any given time on average 24/7?
> >
> > There are now around 110,000 households in Canberra, and about 330,000
> > ppl,
> > and don't tell me 330,000 cars could be driven towards Civic if everyone
> > wanted to.
>
> This is just my point Pat. There wouldn't be that many cars heading to
> Civic at any one time. Hence, cylists are clearly a lot more than 0.5%
> of total traffic just heading into Civic of a morning between 7:30 and
> 9:00. Unfortunatley PP don't collect data for other traffic but it seems
> clear that there is a substantial and growing number of cyclists on
> Canberra's roads during peak periods.

PP only made ONE point, that the number of cyclists has increased a lot.

Only blind freddy could disagree.

I say that on average, 24/7, there might be 5 cyclists on the move
anywhere
for every 1,000 ppl in cars, buses, and lorries.

That's 0.5%.

5% means there would be 50 cyclists per thousand motorists.

In peak hour, if you watch main roads which have a cycle lane, is there
one cyclist passing
for every 19 vehicles? Maybe sometimes there would be.

But averaged over 24/7, its a different story.

Just what % there actually IS has yet to be established, but lemme
tellya,
whatever the %, they will be ignored if there are no votes are attached
to paying them attention.

And for most of the time, Goverments don't act, they
just make sure they are seen to be doing something,
while actually doing SFA.
Honest auditors will confirm this.

Has 0.5% of road infrastructure funding been granted to cyclists?

Maybe.

Patrick Turner.


>
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > I spend half my life reading and studying and figuring.
>
> And the other half posting to a.b?
>
> > And I think that compared to many other people
> > whose pots I read and whose newspaper letters and articles I read,
> > that mine are rather brief.
>
> Maybe the case for newspaper letters, but certainly not for a.b. We all
> have rather short attention spans around here!
>
> > How much do you read?
>
> As little as possible
>
> > What flows from your reading?
>
> A whopping headache usually!
>
> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

Its OK Bean.

I have never set out to please all the people all the time.

I won't apologise to those I displease unless they set out a better
point of view
carefully in long and detailed arguments.

That'd make me a stubborn old curmudgeon, but
there is no accounting for perceptions

Happy cycling,

Patrick Turner.

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > The average age of death in Oz is much less than 91.
>
> The question is clearly what is the average age at death (as you put it)
> for the average Australian who doesn't ride a bike, compared to the
> average Australian who rides a bike. Sure, it's no gurantee that it will
> make you live longer but the hope is that on average a cyclists
> longevity is increased over his fat-arsed compatriots.

I am sure the available statistics somewhere will show
that fit slim people last longer and require less medical repair funding
than unfit fat people.

Someone did say that only the good die young.

If someone unremarkable dies at 70, its just an old guy dying.
But if he's good, then we miss him and his youthful 70 years,
and the promise of another 30 years of goodness flow.

Life is strange though, good, bad, fat, slim, values, sheesh......

Headache? take an Aspro.

Patrick Turner.


> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > stuff about his knees
>
> Not to sound too flippant Pat, but a good series of appropriate
> stretches could well help. Most of us have suffered knee pain of some
> sort as a result of cycling and in most cases it's down to tight ITB's
> or other knee realted ligaments and muscles. I'm just recovering from 2
> months off the bike due to knee pain now.
>
> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

I'll try not to agravate your headache, but, when I began seriously
competing
on a bike in 1986, while working as a contract builder, my back
and knees both played up, and I did a couple of courses in Hatha Yoga.
Maybe you can laugh (if it don't hurt your aching brain), but
yoga kept me mobile for 6 years after the innitial courses.
I found I was able to reduce what I did to a minimum of 10 minutes a day
right after a ride, and basically what i did was a few simple
meditative stretches.

But after 6 years of competition in 1992, nothing eased the pains and
aches I began to have.

Quitting cycling worked, and I was just fine for some years, and then
more troubles....

Lugging bucket fulls of mortar up a ladder for a week to re-point roof
tiles
at a house I was re-furbishing stuffed my knees for months, then my back
went
for 6 months, after helping someone move house, and I realized there
were some things I could no longer do
without considerable risk of injury. OK when you are 25,
but at 50 things change.

The 50km I did today went fine, mainly on flattish paths/roads, but
****ling pains tomorrow
might have me think I still could be "over cooking it".

At 25, 150km a day each day is doable, 750km per 5 days.
One would need to rest on the weekend.

At 85, maybe 15km a day, if you are alive.

Between the two ages, and at some age, say 40, or 60, there must be a
distance which is sustainable.

Patrick Turner.

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > Never barrel on through a situation you feel could be dodgy.
> > That's when **** happens :-[
>
> Agreed absolutely.
>
> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

Headache better now?

Patrick Turner.

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>> You're dribbling Pat.

> You sound both foolhardy and under-educated to say that..
> Not to mention plain disrespectful.

I nevah had much edumicasion Pat. Never got past year 12. I suppose I could
count the year in London and later another year in the US learning about
first gen solid state computers, but that would be Industry training,
wouldn't it?

My mother told me to respect my elders. You're not.

> Have you ever been forced away from something you like
> because your body cannot keep the appointments listed by the brain?

No.

> The fact is that many ppl could not and most definately would not
> ride a bicycle, ever.
>
> And there are lots and lots of reasons, apart from not having been
> born with ideal knees for cycling.

I think that's nonsense Pat.

>> You have your perceptions which you trot out regularly, ignoring all
>> facts. So you won't object if I trot out mine. My perception is that
>> my granddad lived to 96, my dad is currently 93 and in good health.
>> Ergo, everybody lives longer than Oppie.

> When your number comes up, just joke with the nurses and say goodbye
> all,
> and hello nothing.
>
> I could say you have your perceptions which you trot out regularly,
> ignoring all facts.
> But I won't say that. See, I haven't said that.

Even I listen to facts occasionally. Haven't you yet noticed that no-one
here agrees with your view of the cycling world? Do you think none of the
people posting here have anything like your grasp of roadcraft?

> The regular use of bicycles DOES NOT gurantee you will live to 91, or
> 100, whatever.

Did I say it does?

> The average age of death in Oz is much less than 91.
>
> I think what you call a perception of yours needs to be challenged.

That would be a whoosh Patrick.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> Headache? take an Aspro.

I thought it was "a Bex and a good lie down".

Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> >> You're dribbling Pat.
>
> > You sound both foolhardy and under-educated to say that..
> > Not to mention plain disrespectful.
>
> I nevah had much edumicasion Pat. Never got past year 12. I suppose I could
> count the year in London and later another year in the US learning about
> first gen solid state computers, but that would be Industry training,
> wouldn't it?

Indeed.

At school we are often forced to labour over stuff we will find
absolutely useless
later in life. School forces us to learn how to pass exams,
rather than get depth into what we learn, so if you get past year 12,
that may have done no harm to you, maybe did you some good.

Ppl learn best when they want to learn.
And when there is a definate result afterwards.

>
> My mother told me to respect my elders. You're not.

MY parents told me to respect only those who earn it.
And if the very many right old gits older than me trot out BS,
as might younger gits, I will inform them and challenge them as i see
fit.


>
> > Have you ever been forced away from something you like
> > because your body cannot keep the appointments listed by the brain?
>
> No.

I have, and it is mildly painful. Sort of depressing,
and your income suffers, then relationships, but
I am lucky to just be philosophical about it.
People say pain makes you grow, but that's also BS.
Pain is just pain, right?

A friend recently went through a cancer scare and 3 rounds of chemo and
radiation.
Boy, that sure put him off his bike alright.
He's recovered, but he ain't as good as before, and has fingers crossed,
and he's lucky he's alive,
and that he don't get too depressed.

>
> > The fact is that many ppl could not and most definately would not
> > ride a bicycle, ever.
> >
> > And there are lots and lots of reasons, apart from not having been
> > born with ideal knees for cycling.
>
> I think that's nonsense Pat.

For you its nonsense, but but to me I cannot say other folks choices
are nonsense just because I think something is good for me.
Thre'd be some who'd say I should play golf, or lawn bowls,
and improve my social life. Boring to me though.

I could think of dozens of ppl I know who would never ever feel OK
riding a bicycle.

Is it not better that they don't?

Is it such a problem or a nonsense that they should only want to read a
book and fatten up?

Nah, leave em with what they like. Anyway, think if 5% DID all decide to
ride a bike.
The cycle paths and roads would be cluttered with even more traffic.

Some of my best friends hardly do anything more physical
than walk from the car to the cafe to play chess, or to the theatre
to see a movie.
But they mostly trounce me at chess games alright.

Nothing slow about how they think. One is 60,
and is second in the interclub chess competitions,
so he is a better player than at least 329,999 locals.
Only one smartarse 15 year old seems destined to become a grandmaster
and he beats my friend. But maybe he discovers girls soon,
and maybe he gets distracted, maybe he stuffs up on drugs,
who knows, anything can happen with young ppl,
but now the young turk is locally quite un-beatable,
very healthy, happy, and doesn't ride a bike. He does OK at school...

It just never comes into my head that i think their lives are
nonsensical.

>
> >> You have your perceptions which you trot out regularly, ignoring all
> >> facts. So you won't object if I trot out mine. My perception is that
> >> my granddad lived to 96, my dad is currently 93 and in good health.
> >> Ergo, everybody lives longer than Oppie.
>
> > When your number comes up, just joke with the nurses and say goodbye
> > all,
> > and hello nothing.
> >
> > I could say you have your perceptions which you trot out regularly,
> > ignoring all facts.
> > But I won't say that. See, I haven't said that.
>
> Even I listen to facts occasionally. Haven't you yet noticed that no-one
> here agrees with your view of the cycling world? Do you think none of the
> people posting here have anything like your grasp of roadcraft?


But nobody disagrees either it seems.

Can't you share an experience?

I never said anyone didn't have some amount of roadcraft for heaven's
sake.

People in NGs like to be able to get a win by putting other ppl down,
rather than addressing the issues in a title.

Its playing the man, rather than playing the ball.

>
> > The regular use of bicycles DOES NOT gurantee you will live to 91, or
> > 100, whatever.
>
> Did I say it does?
>
> > The average age of death in Oz is much less than 91.
> >
> > I think what you call a perception of yours needs to be challenged.
>
> That would be a whoosh Patrick.

I not sure what you mean, but then figuring just what you really mean
is somewhat of a challenge.

I don't have the latest dictionary, "whoosh" could mean a lot of things.

It is at least about the sound of a bunch riding past though.

I am happy to move over and let em past, and then I don't have to
try vainly to keep up when the younguns at the front come to a hill.


Whatever you think, don't worry, be happy.

Patrick Turner.

>
> Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > Headache? take an Aspro.
>
> I thought it was "a Bex and a good lie down".
>
> Theo

Cuppa tea first though.

Patrick Turner.