SA - Road safety program launched with a focus on cyclists

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> MY parents told me to respect only those who earn it.

Then earn it please Patrick. You've won no points with me on this thread.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> At school we are often forced to labour over stuff we will find
> absolutely useless
> later in life. School forces us to learn how to pass exams,
> rather than get depth into what we learn, so if you get past year 12,
> that may have done no harm to you, maybe did you some good.

I thoroughly enjoyed algebra at school but couldn't really imagine what use
it would be as I didn't know anyone who ever used algebra for anything. A
few years later I was working on a computer whose manual consisted of 4
two-inch-thick manuals of Boolean algebra equations.

> I not sure what you mean, but then figuring just what you really mean
> is somewhat of a challenge.
>
> I don't have the latest dictionary, "whoosh" could mean a lot of
> things.

In usenet "Whoosh" means that something went right over your head without
you even noticing Patrick.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> There simply isn't anything that will kill you.

> Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.

>> If you have an interest, check the body of evidence at
>> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html

> Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
> read.

I'll summarise it for you Patrick. It says, in reports from a dozen
different countries, that cycle paths increase your chances of being
involved in an accident by a factor of four as against riding on the
roadway, in the traffic.

Some salient points:-
Berlin Police study 1981 to 1985.
Cyclists 4 times more likely to have accident on roads with cycle paths.
Likelihood of serious or fatal injury similarly increased.


National survey of LAW members.
Cycle paths 292 accidents per million cycle miles, against 104 for minor
roads and 111 for major roads.

Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Bean Long wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > MY parents told me to respect only those who earn it.
>
> Then earn it please Patrick. You've won no points with me on this thread.

I won't lick arses to earn it though, which often is the BS people
expect in in Interenet discussions.

As I said, I don't give a rat's **** if I can't please all the people
all the time.

And just what have you done that's so special in this thread?

Patrick Turner.


>
> --
> Bean
>
> Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Bean Long wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Turner wrote:
>>
>>> MY parents told me to respect only those who earn it.
>>
>> Then earn it please Patrick. You've won no points with me on this
>> thread.
>
> I won't lick arses to earn it though, which often is the BS people
> expect in in Interenet discussions.
>
> As I said, I don't give a rat's **** if I can't please all the people
> all the time.
>
> And just what have you done that's so special in this thread?

This is a discussion Pat. Discussions are supposed to consist of two or more
parties stating their point of view and responding to the others' point of
view. There is also sometimes a moment of awareness where, when you realise
that everyone disagrees with your point of view, you actually review your
point of view. Unfortunately this is a rare occurence.

Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > At school we are often forced to labour over stuff we will find
> > absolutely useless
> > later in life. School forces us to learn how to pass exams,
> > rather than get depth into what we learn, so if you get past year 12,
> > that may have done no harm to you, maybe did you some good.
>
> I thoroughly enjoyed algebra at school but couldn't really imagine what use
> it would be as I didn't know anyone who ever used algebra for anything. A
> few years later I was working on a computer whose manual consisted of 4
> two-inch-thick manuals of Boolean algebra equations.

I am now an electronics technician. I was a builder for 30 years before
that.
School maths and science came in very handy, because it taught me how to
be
scienific and logical.

But at school the tried for force me to learn French, Latin, and to
study Shakespeare
and read dull books like Wuthering Heights.

So I failed all my English, French, and Latin exams,
and without English I couldn't "matriculate" to qualify
to enter university.

I very happily and proudly became a builder's apprentice carpenter and
went
on to be a foreman within 6 years.

My parents were appalled at my school results,
and couldn't see that being in the building trade
was worse than being a pooncy architect, which was what they wanted.

I didn't do what my elders wanted.

At a school re-union after 35 years, I met two of my old teachers,
and half my school mates. The best success stories in terms of
happiness,
life fulfilment, and good wealth, and a preserved sense of humour
were the blokes who were always in trouble at school.
Notable by their absense were the smartarses. Some made it to uni
to crash hard with the drugs, drink, and uni life.
A couple had beel killed, one in Vietnam.

AFAIK, none rode a bike, and I wasn't riding at the time either.

I siad to my old maths teacher, a Christian Brother who had retired, but
who had, at age 74, been put in charge of what was left of the Brother's
computers.

I told him how he'd roused on me about not doing my homework, again,
and how he'd said I'd end up like the long blonde haired apprentice git
who was working on a house across the road from the school.
"You'll be handing the carpenter he nails" he railed.
But as I looked across the street at the apprentice, who seemed
like a statue, allergic to any movement, I agreed with Brother G
and the blonde apprentice git, but figured it would have been a very
cool job to build a house.
2 years after that the carpenters in the gang I joined all worked our
guts out
being really useful Building Australia.

Schools, Factories, Universities, Hospitals, Churches, you name it, we
built it,
and I was proud of the team effort.

So I told this old teacher who'd feared I would end up in dissarray
that my life didn't end in disaster, and thanked him for his efforts to
put up with me in his class. Just as well I learnt some math, physics,
and chemistry.
He was a good man, plain as day afaiwc.
The other old teacher was 68, and still taught at the school.
I liked both these teachers when they taught me.
Absent were the teachers nobody liked.

But I learnt much more away from school.


>
> > I not sure what you mean, but then figuring just what you really mean
> > is somewhat of a challenge.
> >
> > I don't have the latest dictionary, "whoosh" could mean a lot of
> > things.
>
> In usenet "Whoosh" means that something went right over your head without
> you even noticing Patrick.

Ah, I see why you're so bald then, things have been whooshing over you
constantly,
and so close......

In Turkey, they say, where no grass grows, there is ore.

But not in Oz.

Patrick Turner.


>
> Theo

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> And just what have you done that's so special in this thread?

Fine Pat... if I haven't earned your respect I'll still cope.

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
> > There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
>
> > Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
> > but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
> > My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.
>
> >> If you have an interest, check the body of evidence at
> >> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html
>
> > Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
> > read.
>
> I'll summarise it for you Patrick. It says, in reports from a dozen
> different countries, that cycle paths increase your chances of being
> involved in an accident by a factor of four as against riding on the
> roadway, in the traffic.

Firstly, I never accept any summaries by other people on things I have
not
fully read and understood.
No offence to you, and i really mean that, but its just my sensible
policy.

So when politicians say, "just trust us, we know what's best for you",
I like to ask then to dinner, and place a can of dogfood on their plate.

Most reports by most people are often tainted by what direction
the reporters want the reportees to travel.
I make no apologies for being so cynical of the BS process by which
changes to living, working, and travel conditions is incrementally made
within society.

It has been my experience to have more "accidents"
on or around cycle paths, but all were very minor incidents
requiring only a bandaid to be applied, with no
breakages to body or bike.

But had I had a "negative interface" with a motorist,
I could easily be dead or maimed.

I don't care that my risk of accident could be or is 4 times higher on
the paths
if indeed that risk was greater, and that isn't necessarily true for me.

I just know that if I did have an accident on the road, its
probably going to be "4 times worse", something actually hard to gauge.
More like 40 times worse, because kinetic energy involved
is 40 times greater, because a motor vehicle is involved.


>
> Some salient points:-
> Berlin Police study 1981 to 1985.
> Cyclists 4 times more likely to have accident on roads with cycle paths.
> Likelihood of serious or fatal injury similarly increased.
>
> National survey of LAW members.
> Cycle paths 292 accidents per million cycle miles, against 104 for minor
> roads and 111 for major roads.

A difference of 292:104 is "next to nothing" in likelyhoods.

And surely the nature if the crashes or accidents are relevant,
so that because there couldn't have been any cars, buses, or lorries
involved in cycle path
accidents, just how bad were the accidents on paths?

If we define an accident as being an experience involving
imobilisation of the bicycle due to broken peices,
and hospitalisation of the cyclist, I bet the paths
will give the cyclist a far lower likelyhood of an "accident".

> Theo

So Theo, if you want me get a point here, you have to aim a bit better.
I hear all manner of **** whooshing over and around me,
but I ain't going to ride only on roads now because some mob of
smart arses say paths are more dangerous in some half-arsed reports.

I want more bike lanes, cycle paths, and more repairs of old ones.
If you are a politician and you are reading this, get on with it!

Patrick Turner.

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo wrote

> I am now an electronics technician.

I suspect you wouldn't recognise an electronics technician if you fell over
one Pat. Tell me the difference between hole and electron flow and why and
when you need both.

> But at school the tried for force me to learn French, Latin, and to
> study Shakespeare
> and read dull books like Wuthering Heights.
>
> So I failed all my English, French, and Latin exams,

The whole idea of learning Latin and French is so you get an understanding
of English Pat. Unlike you, I passed all my French and Latin exams with top
marks. But yeah, Shakespeare is dead boring.

>> In usenet "Whoosh" means that something went right over your head
>> without you even noticing Patrick.

> Ah, I see why you're so bald then, things have been whooshing over you
> constantly,
> and so close......

Sure Pat.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

<copious **** snipped?

> So Theo, if you want me get a point here, you have to aim a bit
> better. I hear all manner of **** whooshing over and around me,
> but I ain't going to ride only on roads now because some mob of
> smart arses say paths are more dangerous in some half-arsed reports.

Fugg me, you're even more stupid than I imagined. How did you ever figure
out which end of the nail to hit?

Theo

 

[Bean Long]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> Ah, I see why you're so bald then, things have been whooshing over you
> constantly,
> and so close......

My old man always told me, "Never trust a man with too much hair!"

--
Bean

Remove "yourfinger" before replying

 

[cfsmtb]

Fugg me, you're even more stupid than I imagined. How did you ever figure
out which end of the nail to hit?

Careful now Theo, Pat might invite his mate Phil over to a.b.

 

[Theo Bekkers]

cfsmtb wrote:
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:

>> Fugg me, you're even more stupid than I imagined. How did you ever
>> figure out which end of the nail to hit?

> Careful now Theo, Pat might invite his mate Phil over to a.b.

He's got a mate?

Theo

 

[Resound]

"Patrick Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Theo Bekkers wrote:
>>
>> Patrick Turner wrote:
>>
>> > But on Canberra's cycle paths its utterly different.
>> > There simply isn't anything that will kill you.
>>
>> > Quite a few cyclist have died on roads in the ACT,
>> > but I doubt a single one on the cycle paths in 30 +years.
>> > My eyes tell me more ride the paths than ride the roads.
>>
>> >> If you have an interest, check the body of evidence at
>> >> http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/research.html
>>
>> > Thanks for the link, but there's far more there than I have time to
>> > read.
>>
>> I'll summarise it for you Patrick. It says, in reports from a dozen
>> different countries, that cycle paths increase your chances of being
>> involved in an accident by a factor of four as against riding on the
>> roadway, in the traffic.
>
> Firstly, I never accept any summaries by other people on things I have
> not
> fully read and understood.
> No offence to you, and i really mean that, but its just my sensible
> policy.

You won't accept the concensus of a group of experienced riders, nor
summaries of things you haven't read (by said experienced riders), nor will
you read well researched material you've been offered (and of which you
won't accept the summaries because you haven't read them yourself). This is
the point where I'm forced to assume that you're willfully avoiding anything
that might make you revise your own viewpoint. It's not a discussion
anymore; it's fingers in the ears and "La la la la I can't hear you.". By
all means, harbour your own preconceptions and poorly grounded opinions, but
don't expect others to act on them. Policy makers read reports and act on
them because they recognise that there are those who are better able to
build a picture of things based on what's actually happening in the real
world and that sometimes this is counterintuitive. So if there are any
politicians reading this I can pretty much guarentee they'll be going with
the well researched reports everyone's been trying to point you towards.

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
> > Theo wrote
>
> > I am now an electronics technician.
>
> I suspect you wouldn't recognise an electronics technician if you fell over
> one Pat. Tell me the difference between hole and electron flow and why and
> when you need both.

Its beyond my capabilties to provide a full answer in emails right now
to such a question by someone exhibiting an irrational
need to tip the bucket of **** over me
for no reason, then tells me, doesn't even ask me,
to describe electron flow and hole flow.

Get a life Theo.


But I do have a website at http://www.turneraudio.com.au
And were you at all interested in applied electronics, there is 18 MB
of ideas at the site.

And by the way, most "technicians" don't have much idea about either
electron flow or hole flow
at the post graduate level. Most just know how to make or fix things
from toasters to audio amps, TV sets or PCs.
A technician is not to be confused with intellectual research boffin.
As a technician, I know enough to make and fix things.
Perhaps your definition of a technician is different to mine.


>
> > But at school the tried for force me to learn French, Latin, and to
> > study Shakespeare
> > and read dull books like Wuthering Heights.
> >
> > So I failed all my English, French, and Latin exams,
>
> The whole idea of learning Latin and French is so you get an understanding
> of English Pat. Unlike you, I passed all my French and Latin exams with top
> marks. But yeah, Shakespeare is dead boring.

In my case they tried to teach us language because later we'd become
doctors or lawyers. I doubt anyone did from my class.

I think I have a good command of the english language, and I doubt
having wasted the time studying latin and french has improved me.
Well, I failed in both subjects so badly because I didn't
apply myself, so I virtually didn't take whatever gains were supposed to
acrue.

I quite enjoyed seeing Shakespeare perfomed. The olde english is
difficult
to understand when quickly babbled out by actors, but I recall quite
enjoying
seeing plays I was expected to study and at least I'd read the plays,
and knew the plots, but couldn't come up with all manner of supposed
correct interpretations
as expected.
Teachers told me I was very intelligent and bright, and asked if I would
focus and apply
myself, but forgot that I would retain control over my time, and
frankly, being surly, like a large % of adolescents, I wasn't going to
hasten to the classics
when other things were on my mind.
I should have gone to a public school where woodwork and metalwork was
taught.
Geography and History would have been far more useful than French and
Latin.

Shakespeare teaches us a large amount about human nature and morality.
But so do many other avenues of learning and experience.

Racing on bicycles taught me a lot of discipline,
and that I couldn't always be a winner.

If cycling and life doesn't lift you and humble you,
perhaps youv'e missed something.

Patrick Turner.


>
> >> In usenet "Whoosh" means that something went right over your head
> >> without you even noticing Patrick.
>
> > Ah, I see why you're so bald then, things have been whooshing over you
> > constantly,
> > and so close......
>
> Sure Pat.
>
> Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> <copious **** snipped?
>
> > So Theo, if you want me get a point here, you have to aim a bit
> > better. I hear all manner of **** whooshing over and around me,
> > but I ain't going to ride only on roads now because some mob of
> > smart arses say paths are more dangerous in some half-arsed reports.
>
> Fugg me, you're even more stupid than I imagined. How did you ever figure
> out which end of the nail to hit?

You fail dismally to proove or validate any point you are trying to
make.

Please reload your weapon and re-fire, because you just missed again, by
a mile.

Patrick Turner.

>
> Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

cfsmtb wrote:
>
> Theo Bekkers Wrote:
> >
> > Fugg me, you're even more stupid than I imagined. How did you ever
> > figure
> > out which end of the nail to hit?
>
> Careful now Theo, Pat might invite his mate Phil over to a.b.

Phil A isn't my mate.

He is a disturbed person who occasionally lets himself drift off his
medications, and becomes a raving lunatic, and right now at aus.hi-fi
he's off his rocker, after a period of a few months where he was quite
reasonable and under control
and knowledgeable.

AFAIK, I doubt Phil rides a bike, or would know enough to share any
experience
of cycling with us, but one never knows....
Phil is very secretive about his private life.
He isn't an open person.

With swooping and "whooshing" magpies, life is troubled enough without
Phil's presence.

Patrick Turner.
>
> --
> cfsmtb

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:

> The conclusions of the reports I were refered to to read
> mentioned that cycling is on the rapid increase. I agree because its
> so obvious
> to someone who did a lot of km between 1986 and 1992, laid off for 15
> years,
> then began again last year.
> Bicycle sales figures would indicate this to be the case.
> Car sales have also increased, and the number of cars has dramatically
> increased with cyclists,
> so just saying cyclists have increased isn't saying very much at all
> that will convince polies of anything.

Pat, there were more bicycles sold in Oz than cars last year, so there must
be more bicycles than cars on the road. Don't expect me to accept your
anecdotal statements that there are less bikes than cars, and don't bother
pointing me to some biased report that I won't bother to read.

> The actual average percentage of cyclists on the move at any one time
> as a percentage of all ppl
> on the move has not been clearly established at all.

Only because you refused to read a report summary that was shorter than some
of you posts.

> If the polititians were to accept the idea that more accidents occur
> on cycle paths,
> then we'd be given less cycle paths, or existing ones would be
> ploughed up and re-grassed

Now there's a good idea.

Theo

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Patrick Turner wrote:
> Theo Bekkers wrote:

>>> I am now an electronics technician.

>> I suspect you wouldn't recognise an electronics technician if you
>> fell over one Pat. Tell me the difference between hole and electron
>> flow and why and when you need both.

> Its beyond my capabilties to provide a full answer in emails right now
> to such a question by someone exhibiting an irrational
> need to tip the bucket of **** over me
> for no reason, then tells me, doesn't even ask me,
> to describe electron flow and hole flow.
>
> Get a life Theo.

> But I do have a website at http://www.turneraudio.com.au
> And were you at all interested in applied electronics, there is 18 MB
> of ideas at the site.

Vacuum tubed audio amplifiers, how quaint. I have a friend I used to work
with, who went out on his own making Class A Solid state audio amps in the
'70s. He didn't think VTs were the way to go then.

> And by the way, most "technicians" don't have much idea about either
> electron flow or hole flow
> at the post graduate level. Most just know how to make or fix things
> from toasters to audio amps, TV sets or PCs.

Swap jockies? The computers I worked on when my (probably underserved) title
was Computer Engineer had thousands of plug-in boards. Random swapping
didn't fix it.

> A technician is not to be confused with intellectual research boffin.
> As a technician, I know enough to make and fix things.
> Perhaps your definition of a technician is different to mine.

Probably.

Theo

 

[Patrick Turner]

Theo Bekkers wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > The conclusions of the reports I were refered to to read
> > mentioned that cycling is on the rapid increase. I agree because its
> > so obvious
> > to someone who did a lot of km between 1986 and 1992, laid off for 15
> > years,
> > then began again last year.
> > Bicycle sales figures would indicate this to be the case.
> > Car sales have also increased, and the number of cars has dramatically
> > increased with cyclists,
> > so just saying cyclists have increased isn't saying very much at all
> > that will convince polies of anything.
>
> Pat, there were more bicycles sold in Oz than cars last year, so there must
> be more bicycles than cars on the road.

Exactly, sure there were more bikes sold, but you just don't see them
around.

Nah, most bikes were bought with the intention of being used lots,
and then get put away gathering dust like exercise stationery bikes,
IMHO.

> Don't expect me to accept your
> anecdotal statements that there are less bikes than cars, and don't bother
> pointing me to some biased report that I won't bother to read.


I wouldn't dare do any of that. Feel free to believe in whatever you
want to.


>
> > The actual average percentage of cyclists on the move at any one time
> > as a percentage of all ppl
> > on the move has not been clearly established at all.
>
> Only because you refused to read a report summary that was shorter than some
> of you posts.

Nobody has reffered to the %. Maybe nobody can, because nobody has a
real clue.
>
> > If the polititians were to accept the idea that more accidents occur
> > on cycle paths,
> > then we'd be given less cycle paths, or existing ones would be
> > ploughed up and re-grassed
>
> Now there's a good idea.

This is where what you want and what I want are quite different.
If they got rid of cycle paths I'd take the bike to the tip.

Hundreds use the cyle paths because they hate roads.

So if you tell our Chief Minister Jon Stanhope to remove cycle paths,
don't you think you'd be offending
hundreds of path users?


Patrick Turner.
>
> Theo