Sad news



W

wafflycat

Guest
E

elyob

Guest
"wafflycat" <waffles*A*T*v21net*D*O*T*co*D*O*T*uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
>
> "elyob" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> Just heard from the TdF commentators that cyclist Amy Gillett was killed
>> and five other members of the country's women's road cycling team were
>> badly hurt when they were hit by a car while training in Germany.
>>
>> http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/07/19/cycling.accident.reut/
>>

>
> Yes, it is *awful*
>
> See existing thread
> Re: OT - Australian women's cycling team devastated by accident.
>
> helen s
>


aha ... thanks missed that. Skimmed the existing threads but missed it.
Probably the OT bit made me skip it. It's not OT at all.
 
J

John Hearns

Guest
On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:

Oh, that's awful.

Not perhaps the time to say it but:
"tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.
 
J

JohnB

Guest
John Hearns wrote:
>
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:
>
> Oh, that's awful.
>
> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.


It *is* time to say it.
Now is the best time to make people *think*.

John B
 
E

elyob

Guest
"JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> John Hearns wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:
>>
>> Oh, that's awful.
>>
>> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
>> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.

>
> It *is* time to say it.
> Now is the best time to make people *think*.


According to the BBC, the german authorities haven't yet ruled out
manslaughter. So I'd say, yes, it is a bit early to say it.
 
J

JohnB

Guest
elyob wrote:
>
> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > John Hearns wrote:
> >>
> >> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:
> >>
> >> Oh, that's awful.
> >>
> >> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
> >> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.

> >
> > It *is* time to say it.
> > Now is the best time to make people *think*.

>
> According to the BBC, the german authorities haven't yet ruled out
> manslaughter.


Good. If only the same happenned in the UK.

> So I'd say, yes, it is a bit early to say it.


I disagree.
I maintain that there is no reason for any delay in questionning the
implication that 'lost control' is an 'accident' straight away.

John B
 
E

elyob

Guest
"JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> elyob wrote:
>>
>> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>> > John Hearns wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Oh, that's awful.
>> >>
>> >> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
>> >> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.
>> >
>> > It *is* time to say it.
>> > Now is the best time to make people *think*.

>>
>> According to the BBC, the german authorities haven't yet ruled out
>> manslaughter.

>
> Good. If only the same happenned in the UK.
>
>> So I'd say, yes, it is a bit early to say it.

>
> I disagree.
> I maintain that there is no reason for any delay in questionning the
> implication that 'lost control' is an 'accident' straight away.


She's in a serious way herself. She won't wake up and say "F**K IT, it was
only some hippy cyclists". I think we need to take some space for her. I
cannot believe she'll ever get over something like that.

The only people than can offer an opinion are those saved and the family of
the deceased.

It just sounds like a really, really tragic event. If it had been a red bus
with a suicidal bike lane - different matter. This is just tragic.

Nick
 
S

Shuggie

Guest
elyob wrote:
>
> She's in a serious way herself. She won't wake up and say "F**K IT, it was
> only some hippy cyclists". I think we need to take some space for her. I
> cannot believe she'll ever get over something like that.
>


According to today's Age newspaper:

Cycling Australian spokeswoman Gennie Sheer said the driver of the car,
an 18-year-old girl, also suffered serious injuries. ''Our thoughts and
wishes are with her family and for her recovery,'' she said.
 
J

John Hearns

Guest
On Wed, 20 Jul 2005 00:15:35 +0100, elyob wrote:

>
>
> She's in a serious way herself. She won't wake up and say "F**K IT, it was
> only some hippy cyclists". I think we need to take some space for her. I
> cannot believe she'll ever get over something like that.
>

I was referring to the perjorative words commonly used in reporting
incidents like this.
I agree - this event is a tragedy, and will affect all involved.

But let's separate out the press coverage, which we can discuss.
The topic has come up before on this newsgroup. In most incidents where
someone is killed or seriously injured on the roads the word "accident" is
used.
Sad to say it, its not common that wheels suddenly fly off cars and they
"go out of control". Again, not commenting on this case as it could be
a mechanical failure for all we know.
 
C

Colin Blackburn

Guest
elyob wrote:
> Just heard from the TdF commentators that cyclist Amy Gillett was killed and
> five other members of the country's women's road cycling team were badly
> hurt when they were hit by a car while training in Germany.
>
> http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/07/19/cycling.accident.reut/


I just saw a photo of one of the bikes in a paper this morning. It was
hardly recognisable as a bike.

Colin
 
R

Richard Bullock

Guest
> Oh, that's awful.
>
> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.
>


Without knowing all of the details of the accident, it's difficult to make
firm conclusions - but there's something interesting about this site - it
was recently resurfaced with SMA (stone mastic asphalt.) There was a BBC
documentary about it which said that some SMA sites have had a string of
unexplained skids in good conditions in the first couple of years after
re-surfacing, due to a lower skid resistance. The local paper also reported
2 unexplained skids in good conditions as this site (before the crash this
weekend).

Whilst this is no excuse for the driver, it may be worth the authorities
investigating whether this had some effect.
 
D

David Martin

Guest
Colin Blackburn wrote:
> elyob wrote:
> > Just heard from the TdF commentators that cyclist Amy Gillett was killed and
> > five other members of the country's women's road cycling team were badly
> > hurt when they were hit by a car while training in Germany.
> >
> > http://edition.cnn.com/2005/SPORT/07/19/cycling.accident.reut/

>
> I just saw a photo of one of the bikes in a paper this morning. It was
> hardly recognisable as a bike.


Also on the BBC web site. Not a pretty sight.

...d

>
> Colin
 
J

JohnB

Guest
elyob wrote:
>
> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
> > elyob wrote:
> >>
> >> "JohnB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]
> >> > John Hearns wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 12:26:38 +0100, elyob wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Oh, that's awful.
> >> >>
> >> >> Not perhaps the time to say it but:
> >> >> "tragic accident", "lost control". Hah.
> >> >
> >> > It *is* time to say it.
> >> > Now is the best time to make people *think*.
> >>
> >> According to the BBC, the german authorities haven't yet ruled out
> >> manslaughter.

> >
> > Good. If only the same happenned in the UK.
> >
> >> So I'd say, yes, it is a bit early to say it.

> >
> > I disagree.
> > I maintain that there is no reason for any delay in questionning the
> > implication that 'lost control' is an 'accident' straight away.

>
> She's in a serious way herself. She won't wake up and say "F**K IT, it was
> only some hippy cyclists". I think we need to take some space for her. I
> cannot believe she'll ever get over something like that.


The comments are not on the personal situations, and I agree with your
sentiments on them, but rather on the immediate response from the media
that this was an "accident".
Of course it is tragic for all concerned, but until the facts are
investigated no one can be sure this was an "accident".

John B
 
M

Mark Thompson

Guest
> The comments are not on the personal situations, and I agree with your
> sentiments on them, but rather on the immediate response from the
> media that this was an "accident".
> Of course it is tragic for all concerned, but until the facts are
> investigated no one can be sure this was an "accident".


You mean the driver ploughed through the central reservation in a
deliberated attempt to hit the cyclists?

I'm pretty happy with the term 'accident' to describe the unintended
consequences of someones actions, however stupid/negligent they were. I'm
unhappy with the occasional use of "the car lost control", which should be
either "the driver lost control of the car", or "the twunt lost control of
the car" depending on the degree of negligence/stupidity involved.
 
R

Richard

Guest
Mark Thompson wrote:
>>The comments are not on the personal situations, and I agree with your
>>sentiments on them, but rather on the immediate response from the
>>media that this was an "accident".
>>Of course it is tragic for all concerned, but until the facts are
>>investigated no one can be sure this was an "accident".

>
>
> You mean the driver ploughed through the central reservation in a
> deliberated attempt to hit the cyclists?
>
> I'm pretty happy with the term 'accident' to describe the unintended
> consequences of someones actions, however stupid/negligent they were.


I'm not. I think there's an important distinction that isn't often
made: whether the unintended consequences are sensibly evaluated, or
not. If someone makes a reasonable estimation of the risks involved,
decides that they're acceptable, and still comes a cropper, then I'm
slightly less unhappy [1] at them than if they make no effort to
estimate the risks involved and barge on anyhow.

[1] slightly less != not :)

R.
 
J

JohnB

Guest
Mark Thompson wrote:
>
> > The comments are not on the personal situations, and I agree with your
> > sentiments on them, but rather on the immediate response from the
> > media that this was an "accident".
> > Of course it is tragic for all concerned, but until the facts are
> > investigated no one can be sure this was an "accident".

>
> You mean the driver ploughed through the central reservation in a
> deliberated attempt to hit the cyclists?


Nope.
No one can be sure it was an accident, just like no one can be sure it
was deliberate.

> I'm pretty happy with the term 'accident' to describe the unintended
> consequences of someones actions, however stupid/negligent they were. I'm
> unhappy with the occasional use of "the car lost control", which should be
> either "the driver lost control of the car", or "the twunt lost control of
> the car" depending on the degree of negligence/stupidity involved.


I can't agree more. It is a never the driver's fault - "it was the car
that did it".

John B
 
P

p.k.

Guest
Richard wrote:
> Mark Thompson wrote:
>>> The comments are not on the personal situations, and I agree with
>>> your sentiments on them, but rather on the immediate response from
>>> the media that this was an "accident".
>>> Of course it is tragic for all concerned, but until the facts are
>>> investigated no one can be sure this was an "accident".

>>
>>
>> You mean the driver ploughed through the central reservation in a
>> deliberated attempt to hit the cyclists?
>>
>> I'm pretty happy with the term 'accident' to describe the unintended
>> consequences of someones actions, however stupid/negligent they were.

>
> I'm not.



In that case check out:

http://www.answers.com/topic/accident

There you will find a whole range of definitions of "accident" The focus in
all the various definitions is on
"unintentional/unexpected/unforeseen/undesirable", including, from a legal
dictionary:

"An unexpected usually sudden event that occurs without intent or volition
although sometimes through carelessness, unawareness, ignorance, or a
combination of causes and that produces an unfortunate result (as an injury)
for which the affected party may be entitled to relief under the law or to
compensation under an insurance policy see also unavoidable accident
- The term accident has been held to include intentional acts (such as an
assault and battery) under workers' compensation laws. "

Only the wikipedia definition strays into the uncertain territory arguing
that the unintended consequences of a negligent act are not an accident.

but the "Car accident" link goes further:

"Terminology issues
There is a debate about the use of the word accident in the context of
motor-vehicle incidents. Incidents often result from carelessness or
deliberate dangerous driving, rather than from circumstances beyond the
control of one or more participants. Some road traffic safety authorities
have started using alternative expressions such as car crashes, car wrecks,
collisions or incidents in an attempt to educate drivers and emphasise that
many incidents are entirely avoidable. Further, in some areas (e.g.
Victoria, Australia), authorities are considering counting single-vehicle
single-occupant road traffic crash fatalities in that state's suicide
statistics as well as in road toll statistics."

Which to me seem to stretch the point beyond breaking: if "single-vehicle
single-occupant road traffic crash fatalities" are to be termed suicide then
so should most pedestrian fatalities when the pedestrian steps infront of a
legally and correctly driven vehicle. See how straying from the original
understanding of "unintentional/unexpected/unforeseen/undesirable" get you
into very murky areas.

My negligent driving may result in an accident which kills someone. It only
ceases to be an accident if I *deliberately* use the vehicle as a weapon:
key word deliberately.

There are very few "accidents" (motoring or other wise) that are not the
result of some deliberate act having unintended consequences. Better it
seems to me to retain the distinction between "acts deliberately intended to
cause harm" and "negligence resulting in harm".

pk
 
T

Tony Raven

Guest
p.k. wrote:
>
> In that case check out:
>
> http://www.answers.com/topic/accident
>
> There you will find a whole range of definitions of "accident" The focus in
> all the various definitions is on
> "unintentional/unexpected/unforeseen/undesirable", including, from a legal
> dictionary:
>


My trusty OED confirms your view but in the process I learnt a new word
for such events - accidie

Accidie is a noun for laziness, sloth, apathy and I think fits the
situation far better than accident ;-) Henceforth I shall refer to them
as accidies



--
Tony

"I did make a mistake once - I thought I'd made a mistake but I hadn't"
Anon