Sad, sad story...



"Mark Shroyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...


> And an idiotic, selfish driver in a Civic, Lexus, Maxima, or Cavalier,
> while certainly dangerous,
> holds much less potential for harm than one in a Hummer.
>


Why?
 
Frank Drackman wrote:

> "Mark Shroyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>> And an idiotic, selfish driver in a Civic, Lexus, Maxima, or Cavalier,
>> while certainly dangerous,
>> holds much less potential for harm than one in a Hummer.
>>
>>

> Why?


Because their vehicles aren't as deadly?

Well, up to a point of course.
 
On Oct 23, 8:17 am, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Just based on my observations, I'd say there is a big difference in
> the usage patterns of H3's vs Prius's (Prii?). I'd bet the average
> Prius is used mostly for long commutes with one person in the car.
> H3's probably also spend most of their time with only one person too,
> but I'd bet they also generally are not driven as far, and more often
> than a Prius have more than one person aboard (kids) and more often
> carry cargo (suitcases, **** from Ikea, etc). So if you look at fuel
> spent per person/kilometer or fuel per cargo/km the H3 doesn't look so
> bad. Sure there are other big(ger) cars that offer even more utility,
> but I'm just saying that an H3 isn't as dumb as many would like to
> think.


Your defense of the H3 is based solely on your "I'd bet" postulates.
That makes your conclusions pretty weak.

IOW, got data?

In my area, I don't see the various Hummers being used the way you
describe - loaded with cargo or kids. I see them loaded with bash
bars and driving lights, driven fast and tailgating. And the folks I
know who own hybrids (two Toyotas, one Honda) are all very ... how
would you say it... socially conscious? They minimize trips, drive to
save gas, and don't have an aggressive bone in their body. One such
couple almost never drives if they can reasonably get places by
bicycle.

So if I were to bet, I'd be betting against you. Again, got data?

> Reading a book by it's cover is something everyone does. I'm sure lots
> of Prius owners and other people who think poorly of Hummer owners
> wouldn't have such a dim view of someone driving along a VW Multivan.
> If they saw such a car on the freeway headed to SF from San Jose, they
> might even think highly of the driver. The funny thing is the Syncro
> Multivan weighs more than an H3 and uses more gas.


What you're saying is that Hummers are not the only irresponsible
choice. And sure, that's true. But that doesn't make the Hummer a
responsible choice!

Yes, I know that somewhere out there is a person whose legitimate
needs can only be met by an aggressive looking, irresponsibly marketed
SUV. But I think car choices do indicate a person's values, and I
think a person's values do influence their behavior. And the people
that buy a "war games" vehicle aren't likely to be courteously
deferential on the road, or take pains to use it in a responsible
manner.

- Frank Krygowski
 
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Here is likely the least pedestrian un-friendly motorized vehicle in a
> collision: <http://www.spinopsys.com/wp-content/photos/twike.jpg>.



You gotta admit, that'd *really* hurt your shins. :)

\\paul

owww...hisss....owww....hisss.....ooofff....hisss...
 
On 2007-10-23, Frank Drackman <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Mark Shroyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> And an idiotic, selfish driver in a Civic, Lexus, Maxima, or
>> Cavalier, while certainly dangerous, holds much less potential
>> for harm than one in a Hummer.

>
> Why?


Because p=mv and k=mv^2. As I mentioned before, a Hummer is less
maneuverable and harder to stop, so a driver needs to be even more
conscientious in order to operate it safely. On top of that, as
someone else pointed out earlier in this thread, large SUVs like the
Hummer have been shown more likely to cause head injury to
pedestrians upon impact -- and are more likely to actually run over,
rather than toss onto the hood, an incapacitated pedestrian.

Smaller cars are inherently safer for pedestrians. And many sedans
and compact cars are now built with specific features for pedestrian
safety: for example, Honda's energy-absorbing hood, designed to
reduce the risk of head injury should a pedestrian be hit:

http://corporate.honda.com/safety/details.aspx?id=pedestrian

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
 
On Oct 23, 7:41 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 23, 8:17 am, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Just based on my observations, I'd say there is a big difference in
> > the usage patterns of H3's vs Prius's (Prii?). I'd bet the average
> > Prius is used mostly for long commutes with one person in the car.
> > H3's probably also spend most of their time with only one person too,
> > but I'd bet they also generally are not driven as far, and more often
> > than a Prius have more than one person aboard (kids) and more often
> > carry cargo (suitcases, **** from Ikea, etc). So if you look at fuel
> > spent per person/kilometer or fuel per cargo/km the H3 doesn't look so
> > bad. Sure there are other big(ger) cars that offer even more utility,
> > but I'm just saying that an H3 isn't as dumb as many would like to
> > think.

>
> Your defense of the H3 is based solely on your "I'd bet" postulates.
> That makes your conclusions pretty weak.
>
> IOW, got data?


As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data. Do
these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids? While I
don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only thing that
really matters is how much utility they get in terms number of people
and amount of cargo actually transported for the amount of fuel they
use. The same goes for any car, H3's included. I think anyone who
thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's miles with more people in
it than a Prius does with it's miles is mistaken.

> In my area, I don't see the various Hummers being used the way you
> describe - loaded with cargo or kids. I see them loaded with bash
> bars and driving lights, driven fast and tailgating. And the folks I
> know who own hybrids (two Toyotas, one Honda) are all very ... how
> would you say it... socially conscious? They minimize trips, drive to
> save gas, and don't have an aggressive bone in their body. One such
> couple almost never drives if they can reasonably get places by
> bicycle.
>
> > Reading a book by it's cover is something everyone does. I'm sure lots
> > of Prius owners and other people who think poorly of Hummer owners
> > wouldn't have such a dim view of someone driving along a VW Multivan.
> > If they saw such a car on the freeway headed to SF from San Jose, they
> > might even think highly of the driver. The funny thing is the Syncro
> > Multivan weighs more than an H3 and uses more gas.

>
> What you're saying is that Hummers are not the only irresponsible
> choice. And sure, that's true. But that doesn't make the Hummer a
> responsible choice!


Who ever said it was a responsible choice? I just said it wasn't
necessarily AS dumb as you guys seem to think. I also said that you
guys show a prejudice toward cars like the H3 based on it's looks that
you don't show for other cars that are just as bad.

> Yes, I know that somewhere out there is a person whose legitimate
> needs can only be met by an aggressive looking, irresponsibly marketed
> SUV. But I think car choices do indicate a person's values, and I
> think a person's values do influence their behavior. And the people
> that buy a "war games" vehicle aren't likely to be courteously
> deferential on the road, or take pains to use it in a responsible
> manner.


I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes a
wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps other
needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may indeed be
asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.

I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg. A
Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than
that. My current "dream car" is a 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which
(really) gets 50mpg. I want one because it would reduce my fuel
expenditures and emissions. The same reasons Prius owners buy their
cars, but I don't wear it like a badge on my arm.

Joseph
 
On Oct 23, 12:14 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg. A
> Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than
> that. My current "dream car" is a 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which
> (really) gets 50mpg. I want one because it would reduce my fuel
> expenditures and emissions.


> The same reasons Prius owners buy their
> cars, but I don't wear it like a badge on my arm.


Spoken exactly like somebody who does NOT own a Prius.
 
On Oct 23, 12:14 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg. A
> Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than
> that. My current "dream car" is a 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which
> (really) gets 50mpg. I want one because it would reduce my fuel
> expenditures and emissions.


> The same reasons Prius owners buy their
> cars, but I don't wear it like a badge on my arm.


Spoken exactly like somebody who does NOT own a Prius.
 
<[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
> these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Some do and some don't. Some Hummer drivers have kids and some don't. When
you can come up with some comparative figures on gallons per passenger mile,
I'll be willing to listen. In the meantime, why don't you stop trying to
control the argument with your imagination?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(clip) They may indeed be
> asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
> that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
> that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What your personal "needs" are, and how you satisfy them, is part of what
makes you a socially conscious person or an asocial moron.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> are accomplishing.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What you think personally has no weight with me. Your biases are coming
through so clearly that you've lost credibility.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
If I paid half as much attention to
> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg.

A Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than
> that.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My son gets closer to 50 mpg in his Prius without resorting to ANY tricks.
 
On Oct 23, 12:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do


Joseph Santaniello wrote:

> They may indeed be asocial morons, but it is
> probably because they have different needs
> that they have chosen differently, and for
> them the decision isn't that stupid, not
> because they may or may not be asocial morons.


And Leo Lichtman responded:

> What your personal "needs" are, and how you
> satisfy them, is part of what makes you a socially
> conscious person or an asocial moron.


To which I say:

Ayyyyyyy-men, Leo!
 
On Oct 23, 9:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 23, 12:14 pm, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> > righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> > are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> > engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> > Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> > I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> > coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> > anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg. A
> > Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than
> > that. My current "dream car" is a 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which
> > (really) gets 50mpg. I want one because it would reduce my fuel
> > expenditures and emissions.
> > The same reasons Prius owners buy their
> > cars, but I don't wear it like a badge on my arm.

>
> Spoken exactly like somebody who does NOT own a Prius.


I have a car that gets almost as good milage as a Prius and plan to
get one that gets just as good, but that apparently doesn't count.
What counts is being "socially conscious" and letting everybody know
it. And of course operating under the assumption that everyone else is
a jerk.

Joseph
 
On Oct 23, 9:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
> > these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?

>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Some do and some don't. Some Hummer drivers have kids and some don't. When
> you can come up with some comparative figures on gallons per passenger mile,
> I'll be willing to listen. In the meantime, why don't you stop trying to
> control the argument with your imagination?


Ok, I may be wrong about the usage pattern of these cars. Do you
conceed that I may actually be right?

> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> (clip) They may indeed be> asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
> > that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
> > that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.

>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> What your personal "needs" are, and how you satisfy them, is part of what
> makes you a socially conscious person or an asocial moron.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Correct. But you just assume all these "needs" are not valid because
you are the arbitrator of such things, and thus anyone who choses a
car other than what you would chose for them is a moron.


> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> > are accomplishing.

>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> What you think personally has no weight with me. Your biases are coming
> through so clearly that you've lost credibility.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Sure a Prius is a very fuel efficient car, and it has other plusses
like reduced particulate emissions, etc. There are few reasons NOT to
have one. The problem is the attitude. That a small minority thinks
the vast majority of people are morons because they do not think
exactly like they do is a reflection of my bias is an interesting way
to look at it.


> If I paid half as much attention to> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> > anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg.

>
> A Prius using all the tricks in the book doesn't get much better than> that.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> My son gets closer to 50 mpg in his Prius without resorting to ANY tricks.


Good for him. I reset my trip-odometer at each refuel and do the math
to see what my latest tank resulted in. Is that the sort of 50pmg he
gets? It doesn't really matter, he clearly gets very good fuel economy
either way which is a good thing. My point is that there are other
cars that get just as good mileage, but don't come with the attitude.
Prius owners are not just interested in saving gas, they are
interested in being Prius owners and having others know it. Kind of
like clapping at un-funny political jokes to show that they are "with
it". When I get my new car next year that will get 55mpg on the
highway, 50mpg combined, do I get as many "socially consious" points
as a Prius owner? Or are they negated because I don't think everyone
else is a moron?

Joseph
 
On Oct 23, 9:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> > are accomplishing.

>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> What you think personally has no weight with me. Your biases are coming
> through so clearly that you've lost credibility.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


Time-out:

My comment about "smug and self-righteous" was obvioulsy an exagerated
generalization. There is really only a tendency toward that sentiment.
I can see how that would anger you since your son has one of these and
in a sense I was calling him names. I'm sorry if I offended you, that
was not my intention.

Now back to the argument...

Joseph
 
On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
> As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
> Do these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
> While I don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only
> thing that really matters is how much utility they get in terms
> number of people and amount of cargo actually transported for the
> amount of fuel they use. The same goes for any car, H3's included.
> I think anyone who thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's
> miles with more people in it than a Prius does with it's miles is
> mistaken.


While H3s and especially H2s are thankfully rare in this town, I do
spot them from time to time and I have yet to see one of either
model carrying more than two occupants (including the driver). So
no, I don't think the average H3 spends more of its miles with more
people in it than a Prius; in fact, I'd venture it's probably the
other way around. That's based on my personal observation, which is
no more and no less valid than your own.

> I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes
> a wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps
> other needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may
> indeed be asocial morons, but it is probably because they have
> different needs that they have chosen differently, and for them
> the decision isn't that stupid, not because they may or may not be
> asocial morons.
>
> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good
> they are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4
> liter gas engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic
> sized vehicle. Without any particular care paid to how I drive in
> terms of frugality, I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as
> much attention to coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners
> use to try to get anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd
> easy be over 40mpg. A Prius using all the tricks in the book
> doesn't get much better than that. My current "dream car" is a
> 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which (really) gets 50mpg. I want one
> because it would reduce my fuel expenditures and emissions. The
> same reasons Prius owners buy their cars, but I don't wear it like
> a badge on my arm.


Cool... I've always had a thing for Fiat. From your headers it
looks like you're in the US; does anyone currently import Fiats into
the States?

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 23, 9:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>><[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
>>
>>>these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?

>>
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Some do and some don't. Some Hummer drivers have kids and some don't. When
>>you can come up with some comparative figures on gallons per passenger mile,
>>I'll be willing to listen. In the meantime, why don't you stop trying to
>>control the argument with your imagination?

>
>
> Ok, I may be wrong about the usage pattern of these cars. Do you
> conceed that I may actually be right?
>
>


If my cycling turf is representative of all Hummer usage, I would not
concede that you are not very likely to be right. Hummers seem to be
more of a "bigger is better" status vehicle, sort of like owning an
Escalade or Navigator because a Suburban or Explorer is not fancy
enough. I know there may be some practical use for a Hummer in some
parts of the world, but not here in the southwest US.
 
[email protected] wrote:

> On Oct 23, 9:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
>>
>>> these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?

>>
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Some do and some don't. Some Hummer drivers have kids and some

don't. When
>> you can come up with some comparative figures on gallons per

passenger mile,
>> I'll be willing to listen. In the meantime, why don't you stop

trying to
>> control the argument with your imagination?

>
>
>
> Ok, I may be wrong about the usage pattern of these cars. Do you
> conceed that I may actually be right?
>
>


If my cycling turf is representative of all Hummer usage, I would not
concede that you are very likely to be right. Hummers seem to be more
of a "bigger is better" status vehicle, sort of like owning an Escalade
or Navigator because a Suburban or Explorer is not fancy enough. I know
there may be some practical use for a Hummer in some parts of the world,
but not here in the southwest US.
 
On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
> Sure a Prius is a very fuel efficient car, and it has other
> plusses like reduced particulate emissions, etc. There are few
> reasons NOT to have one. The problem is the attitude. That a small
> minority thinks the vast majority of people are morons because
> they do not think exactly like they do is a reflection of my bias
> is an interesting way to look at it.
>
> [...]
>
> Good for him. I reset my trip-odometer at each refuel and do the
> math to see what my latest tank resulted in. Is that the sort of
> 50pmg he gets? It doesn't really matter, he clearly gets very good
> fuel economy either way which is a good thing. My point is that
> there are other cars that get just as good mileage, but don't come
> with the attitude. Prius owners are not just interested in saving
> gas, they are interested in being Prius owners and having others
> know it. Kind of like clapping at un-funny political jokes to show
> that they are "with it". When I get my new car next year that will
> get 55mpg on the highway, 50mpg combined, do I get as many
> "socially consious" points as a Prius owner? Or are they negated
> because I don't think everyone else is a moron?


A small minority of cyclists ride like irresponsible assholes. Does
that mean it's fair for the general, non-cyclist public to
characterize all bicyclists in this manner? Likewise, that a small
minority of Prius owners are self-righteous pricks about their cars
doesn't give you license to cast that stereotype on everyone who
drives a Prius.

The car itself is not equipped with asshole environmentalist
attitude. You're projecting that image onto Prius drivers yourself.
As you pointed out earlier in this thread, one shouldn't judge a
book by its cover.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
 
On 2007-10-23, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> The car itself is not equipped with asshole environmentalist
> attitude. You're projecting that image onto Prius drivers yourself.
> As you pointed out earlier in this thread, one shouldn't judge a
> book by its cover.


Scratch that... in hindsight, that metaphor doesn't really work
here. I (figuratively) suck at metaphors.

--
Mark Shroyer
http://markshroyer.com/
 
On Oct 23, 3:14 pm, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 23, 7:41 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > IOW, got data?

>
> As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.


OK, I thought so. That's why I listed my observations, which differ
from yours. I suppose the person who actually posts data will
contribute more than either of us!

> Do
> these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?


Yep.

> While I
> don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only thing that
> really matters is how much utility they get in terms number of people
> and amount of cargo actually transported for the amount of fuel they
> use. The same goes for any car, H3's included. I think anyone who
> thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's miles with more people in
> it than a Prius does with it's miles is mistaken.


And, of course, I think differently!

I've spent a few minutes, from time to time, standing on a pedestrian
bridge over a busy downtown street where I work. I was counting the
people in cars that passed by. The count goes like this: 1; 1; 1; 1;
1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 2; 1; 1; 1; 1; and so on.

Americans, by and large, drive alone. It doesn't matter if they're in
Miatas or Escalades. I'll agree that moving more people per gallon is
a good idea. I just don't believe the total number of people per
gallon is greater for SUVs. In fact, I'd be astounded if it were.

And someone pointed out, the H3 has a seating capacity of five - the
same as my ancient Civic wagon, or my relative's Taurus.

> > What you're saying is that Hummers are not the _only_ irresponsible
> > choice. And sure, that's true. But that doesn't make the Hummer a
> > responsible choice!

>
> Who ever said it was a responsible choice? I just said it wasn't
> necessarily AS dumb as you guys seem to think. I also said that you
> guys show a prejudice toward cars like the H3 based on it's looks that
> you don't show for other cars that are just as bad.


I'm not willing to concede that my dislike of SUVs is prejudicial. I
believe it's observational. I've previously listed many specific
reasons I don't like SUVs, and I suppose I can do it again. They're
certainly not all related to fuel economy. (BTW, the only person who
aggressively tailgated me today was driving an SUV.)


>
> > Yes, I know that somewhere out there is a person whose legitimate
> > needs can only be met by an aggressive looking, irresponsibly marketed
> > SUV. But I think car choices do indicate a person's values, and I
> > think a person's values do influence their behavior. And the people
> > that buy a "war games" vehicle aren't likely to be courteously
> > deferential on the road, or take pains to use it in a responsible
> > manner.

>
> I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes a
> wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps other
> needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may indeed be
> asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
> that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
> that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.


Well, it sounds a little as if you're saying "Everything is just a
personal choice, there is no right or wrong." That's too fluffy and
liberal for me. I think there _are_ moronic choices, and that they're
made every day. Especially regarding cars!

> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg.


And, interestingly, I'm in the same camp as you (except that my Prius
and other hybrid-driving friends are not smug or self righteous, from
what I can tell.)*

But I do agree that the Prius, or its hybrid competitors, aren't that
great for the environment. In fact, when my daughter and her husband
were shopping for a new car, I sent them an article from one of my
engineering magazines describing that, and describing the
environmental costs of the mining of ores for the batteries, the
around-the-world shipping of the same, and other factors that make the
Prius a questionable choice.

The kids ended up getting a Honda Fit - which, coincidentally, is a
near twin of my 1990 Honda Civic station wagon. Which hit 42 mpg on
its last tank.

- Frank Krygowski

* For a better example of smug and self righteous, you'd have to see
me when I'm loading groceries into my bike baskets! ;-)
 
[email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Oct 22, 8:09 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> "Gooserider" wrote: Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the
>>
>> Chevy Colorado pickup.> It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee.
>>
>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> Isn't that what "pseudo" means?
>>
>> On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
>> those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
>> reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
>> five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
>> crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
>> like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.

>
> Just based on my observations, I'd say there is a big difference in
> the usage patterns of H3's vs Prius's (Prii?). I'd bet the average
> Prius is used mostly for long commutes with one person in the car.
> H3's probably also spend most of their time with only one person too,
> but I'd bet they also generally are not driven as far, and more often
> than a Prius have more than one person aboard (kids) and more often
> carry cargo (suitcases, **** from Ikea, etc). So if you look at fuel
> spent per person/kilometer or fuel per cargo/km the H3 doesn't look so
> bad. Sure there are other big(ger) cars that offer even more utility,
> but I'm just saying that an H3 isn't as dumb as many would like to
> think.


I pretty much see H3s with a single occupant. As for carrying cargo, the
H3 is rather small inside - I could likely get almost as much stuff in
my Honda Civic.

A minivan will use less gas and haul a whole lot more than a H3, and
will handle better in the bargain.

> Reading a book by it's cover is something everyone does. I'm sure lots
> of Prius owners and other people who think poorly of Hummer owners
> wouldn't have such a dim view of someone driving along a VW Multivan.
> If they saw such a car on the freeway headed to SF from San Jose, they
> might even think highly of the driver. The funny thing is the Syncro
> Multivan weighs more than an H3 and uses more gas.


The VW Multivan is in a whole different different class when it comes to
passenger and cargo space.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!