On Oct 23, 3:14 pm, "
[email protected]"
<
[email protected]> wrote:
> On Oct 23, 7:41 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > IOW, got data?
>
> As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
OK, I thought so. That's why I listed my observations, which differ
from yours. I suppose the person who actually posts data will
contribute more than either of us!
> Do
> these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
Yep.
> While I
> don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only thing that
> really matters is how much utility they get in terms number of people
> and amount of cargo actually transported for the amount of fuel they
> use. The same goes for any car, H3's included. I think anyone who
> thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's miles with more people in
> it than a Prius does with it's miles is mistaken.
And, of course, I think differently!
I've spent a few minutes, from time to time, standing on a pedestrian
bridge over a busy downtown street where I work. I was counting the
people in cars that passed by. The count goes like this: 1; 1; 1; 1;
1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 2; 1; 1; 1; 1; and so on.
Americans, by and large, drive alone. It doesn't matter if they're in
Miatas or Escalades. I'll agree that moving more people per gallon is
a good idea. I just don't believe the total number of people per
gallon is greater for SUVs. In fact, I'd be astounded if it were.
And someone pointed out, the H3 has a seating capacity of five - the
same as my ancient Civic wagon, or my relative's Taurus.
> > What you're saying is that Hummers are not the _only_ irresponsible
> > choice. And sure, that's true. But that doesn't make the Hummer a
> > responsible choice!
>
> Who ever said it was a responsible choice? I just said it wasn't
> necessarily AS dumb as you guys seem to think. I also said that you
> guys show a prejudice toward cars like the H3 based on it's looks that
> you don't show for other cars that are just as bad.
I'm not willing to concede that my dislike of SUVs is prejudicial. I
believe it's observational. I've previously listed many specific
reasons I don't like SUVs, and I suppose I can do it again. They're
certainly not all related to fuel economy. (BTW, the only person who
aggressively tailgated me today was driving an SUV.)
>
> > Yes, I know that somewhere out there is a person whose legitimate
> > needs can only be met by an aggressive looking, irresponsibly marketed
> > SUV. But I think car choices do indicate a person's values, and I
> > think a person's values do influence their behavior. And the people
> > that buy a "war games" vehicle aren't likely to be courteously
> > deferential on the road, or take pains to use it in a responsible
> > manner.
>
> I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes a
> wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps other
> needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may indeed be
> asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
> that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
> that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.
Well, it sounds a little as if you're saying "Everything is just a
personal choice, there is no right or wrong." That's too fluffy and
liberal for me. I think there _are_ moronic choices, and that they're
made every day. Especially regarding cars!
> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg.
And, interestingly, I'm in the same camp as you (except that my Prius
and other hybrid-driving friends are not smug or self righteous, from
what I can tell.)*
But I do agree that the Prius, or its hybrid competitors, aren't that
great for the environment. In fact, when my daughter and her husband
were shopping for a new car, I sent them an article from one of my
engineering magazines describing that, and describing the
environmental costs of the mining of ores for the batteries, the
around-the-world shipping of the same, and other factors that make the
Prius a questionable choice.
The kids ended up getting a Honda Fit - which, coincidentally, is a
near twin of my 1990 Honda Civic station wagon. Which hit 42 mpg on
its last tank.
- Frank Krygowski
* For a better example of smug and self righteous, you'd have to see
me when I'm loading groceries into my bike baskets! ;-)