Sad, sad story...

[Tom Sherman]

Gooserider wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Gooserider wrote:
>>> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>> Absolutely tragic. Unquestionably criminal.
>>>>>
>>>>> R.I.P.
>>>>>
>>>>> (This link might be more direct:
>>>>> http://www.idahostatesman.com/localnews/story/188765.html.)
>>>> Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly shows a concern
>>>> and respect for others.
>>> Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the Chevy Colorado
>>> pickup. It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee. It's like a
>>> Jeep Liberty, just a yupmobile.
>> The H3 takes its styling cues from the military Humvee, but is not an
>> actual military vehicle - appears to fit the definition of "pseudo
>> military", no?
>
> Your comment that "Driving a pseudo military vehicle on the street hardly
> shows a concern and respect for others." doesn't apply to the H3, because
> it's not a huge vehicle like an H1 or H2. By your logic, would driving a
> Jeep show the same lack of concern?

The Jeep, although descended from a military vehicle, has lost most of
the connotation. The Wrangler in recent years has had about as much
military aspect as a VW based dune buggy (as opposed to a Thing).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

 

[Leo Lichtman]

"Tom Sherman" wrote: (clip) The Jeep, although descended from a military
vehicle, has lost most of the connotation.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Even when surplus military jeeps, with their olive drab paint, filtered into
the civilian market, I don't believe they were ever regarded by their owners
as "macho." They were small, practical cars that had proven themselves
reliable for off-road use, so they were in demand by hunters and ranchers.
I don't think anyone ever became a bully just by getting behind the wheel of
one.

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 12:05 am, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-10-23, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > The car itself is not equipped with asshole environmentalist
> > attitude. You're projecting that image onto Prius drivers yourself.
> > As you pointed out earlier in this thread, one shouldn't judge a
> > book by its cover.
>
> Scratch that... in hindsight, that metaphor doesn't really work
> here. I (figuratively) suck at metaphors.
>
> --
> Mark Shroyerhttp://markshroyer.com/

I know what you meant, but I didn't mean that folks shouldn't judge a
book by it's cover, just that folks need to be aware that thay do
that. Just like it is of course true that not all Prius drivers are
smug jerks, neither are all Hummer drivers asocial morons.

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 23, 11:57 pm, catzz66 <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Oct 23, 9:59 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]> > wrote:
>
> > >> <[email protected]> wrote: (clip) Do
>
> >>
> >>> these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
> >>
> >>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Some do and some don't. Some Hummer drivers have kids and some
> don't. When
> >> you can come up with some comparative figures on gallons per
> passenger mile,
> >> I'll be willing to listen. In the meantime, why don't you stop
> trying to
> >> control the argument with your imagination?
> >
> >
> >
> > Ok, I may be wrong about the usage pattern of these cars. Do you
> > conceed that I may actually be right?
> >
> >
>
> If my cycling turf is representative of all Hummer usage, I would not
> concede that you are very likely to be right. Hummers seem to be more
> of a "bigger is better" status vehicle, sort of like owning an Escalade
> or Navigator because a Suburban or Explorer is not fancy enough. I know
> there may be some practical use for a Hummer in some parts of the world,
> but not here in the southwest US.

I recently was on 2 trips to California where I drove around quite a
bit. I was there for almost 4 weeks and drove a huge number of miles.
The trip was for the purpose of researching potential places to move
to, so I was making a point of observing as much as I could. This is
essentially what my Hummer observations are based on.

Again, I don't think they are by any means a reasonable car choice,
but I do think that they do occasionally get used in a way that does
take at least some advantage of their capacity.

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 12:43 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Oct 23, 3:14 pm, "[email protected]"
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Oct 23, 7:41 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
> > > IOW, got data?
>
> > As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
>
> OK, I thought so. That's why I listed my observations, which differ
> from yours. I suppose the person who actually posts data will
> contribute more than either of us!
>
> > Do
> > these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
>
> Yep.
>
> > While I
> > don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only thing that
> > really matters is how much utility they get in terms number of people
> > and amount of cargo actually transported for the amount of fuel they
> > use. The same goes for any car, H3's included. I think anyone who
> > thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's miles with more people in
> > it than a Prius does with it's miles is mistaken.
>
> And, of course, I think differently!
>
> I've spent a few minutes, from time to time, standing on a pedestrian
> bridge over a busy downtown street where I work. I was counting the
> people in cars that passed by. The count goes like this: 1; 1; 1; 1;
> 1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 1; 2; 1; 1; 1; 1; and so on.
>
> Americans, by and large, drive alone. It doesn't matter if they're in
> Miatas or Escalades. I'll agree that moving more people per gallon is
> a good idea. I just don't believe the total number of people per
> gallon is greater for SUVs. In fact, I'd be astounded if it were.

Around here the passenger counts are pretty much the same as you
observe. When I suggest that SUV's have a higher number of people
miles, I suspect it is only by a super slim margin. An SUV could have
2x as many double occupancy miles as a Prius and still spend 95% of
it's miles with only one person. But of course as you pointed out
that's just speculation.

> And someone pointed out, the H3 has a seating capacity of five - the
> same as my ancient Civic wagon, or my relative's Taurus.

While smaller cars like that can seat 5 people, it's often cramped.
People who regularly (or even more than just occasionally) carry that
many people I suspect get bigger cars. The cars end up getting driven
around with only one person most of the time, but sometimes not.

>
> > > What you're saying is that Hummers are not the _only_ irresponsible
> > > choice. And sure, that's true. But that doesn't make the Hummer a
> > > responsible choice!
>
> > Who ever said it was a responsible choice? I just said it wasn't
> > necessarily AS dumb as you guys seem to think. I also said that you
> > guys show a prejudice toward cars like the H3 based on it's looks that
> > you don't show for other cars that are just as bad.
>
> I'm not willing to concede that my dislike of SUVs is prejudicial. I
> believe it's observational. I've previously listed many specific
> reasons I don't like SUVs, and I suppose I can do it again. They're
> certainly not all related to fuel economy. (BTW, the only person who
> aggressively tailgated me today was driving an SUV.)
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Yes, I know that somewhere out there is a person whose legitimate
> > > needs can only be met by an aggressive looking, irresponsibly marketed
> > > SUV. But I think car choices do indicate a person's values, and I
> > > think a person's values do influence their behavior. And the people
> > > that buy a "war games" vehicle aren't likely to be courteously
> > > deferential on the road, or take pains to use it in a responsible
> > > manner.
>
> > I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> > think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes a
> > wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps other
> > needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may indeed be
> > asocial morons, but it is probably because they have different needs
> > that they have chosen differently, and for them the decision isn't
> > that stupid, not because they may or may not be asocial morons.
>
> Well, it sounds a little as if you're saying "Everything is just a
> personal choice, there is no right or wrong." That's too fluffy and
> liberal for me. I think there _are_ moronic choices, and that they're
> made every day. Especially regarding cars!

If it sounds like I was giving everyone a free pass to be stupid with
"I'm ok, you're ok", I was not clear.

> > I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> > righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good they
> > are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4 liter gas
> > engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic sized vehicle.
> > Without any particular care paid to how I drive in terms of frugality,
> > I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as much attention to
> > coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners use to try to get
> > anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd easy be over 40mpg.
>
> And, interestingly, I'm in the same camp as you (except that my Prius
> and other hybrid-driving friends are not smug or self righteous, from
> what I can tell.)*
>
> But I do agree that the Prius, or its hybrid competitors, aren't that
> great for the environment. In fact, when my daughter and her husband
> were shopping for a new car, I sent them an article from one of my
> engineering magazines describing that, and describing the
> environmental costs of the mining of ores for the batteries, the
> around-the-world shipping of the same, and other factors that make the
> Prius a questionable choice.
>
> The kids ended up getting a Honda Fit - which, coincidentally, is a
> near twin of my 1990 Honda Civic station wagon. Which hit 42 mpg on
> its last tank.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
> * For a better example of smug and self righteous, you'd have to see
> me when I'm loading groceries into my bike baskets! ;-)

;-)

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 23, 11:42 pm, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
> > As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
> > Do these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
> > While I don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only
> > thing that really matters is how much utility they get in terms
> > number of people and amount of cargo actually transported for the
> > amount of fuel they use. The same goes for any car, H3's included.
> > I think anyone who thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's
> > miles with more people in it than a Prius does with it's miles is
> > mistaken.
>
> While H3s and especially H2s are thankfully rare in this town, I do
> spot them from time to time and I have yet to see one of either
> model carrying more than two occupants (including the driver). So
> no, I don't think the average H3 spends more of its miles with more
> people in it than a Prius; in fact, I'd venture it's probably the
> other way around. That's based on my personal observation, which is
> no more and no less valid than your own.
>
>
>
> > I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> > think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes
> > a wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps
> > other needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may
> > indeed be asocial morons, but it is probably because they have
> > different needs that they have chosen differently, and for them
> > the decision isn't that stupid, not because they may or may not be
> > asocial morons.
>
> > I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> > righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good
> > they are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4
> > liter gas engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic
> > sized vehicle. Without any particular care paid to how I drive in
> > terms of frugality, I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as
> > much attention to coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners
> > use to try to get anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd
> > easy be over 40mpg. A Prius using all the tricks in the book
> > doesn't get much better than that. My current "dream car" is a
> > 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which (really) gets 50mpg. I want one
> > because it would reduce my fuel expenditures and emissions. The
> > same reasons Prius owners buy their cars, but I don't wear it like
> > a badge on my arm.
>
> Cool... I've always had a thing for Fiat. From your headers it
> looks like you're in the US; does anyone currently import Fiats into
> the States?
>

Not that I'm aware of. VW makes some cars that are just as good (but
not as cool IMO) and since they already have a whole distribution
setup in the US it would be easier to deal with to get them to bring
them to the US.

Joseph

 

[Zoot Katz]

On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 22:53:36 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> And someone pointed out, the H3 has a seating capacity of five - the
>> same as my ancient Civic wagon, or my relative's Taurus.
>
>While smaller cars like that can seat 5 people, it's often cramped.
>People who regularly (or even more than just occasionally) carry that
>many people I suspect get bigger cars. The cars end up getting driven
>around with only one person most of the time, but sometimes not.

Obesity numbers partly feed the market for monster scuds.

Along with fear addled wussies needing the security of a rolling
fortress and the Walter Mitty Rambo types who'd rather have a tank,
you've got a sizeable part of the population who can't comfortably
fit into cars designed for people with a normal BMI.

They do really need a truck for hauling their family to KFC.
--
zk

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Oct 23, 11:42 pm, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
>>> Do these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
>>> While I don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only
>>> thing that really matters is how much utility they get in terms
>>> number of people and amount of cargo actually transported for the
>>> amount of fuel they use. The same goes for any car, H3's included.
>>> I think anyone who thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's
>>> miles with more people in it than a Prius does with it's miles is
>>> mistaken.
>> While H3s and especially H2s are thankfully rare in this town, I do
>> spot them from time to time and I have yet to see one of either
>> model carrying more than two occupants (including the driver). So
>> no, I don't think the average H3 spends more of its miles with more
>> people in it than a Prius; in fact, I'd venture it's probably the
>> other way around. That's based on my personal observation, which is
>> no more and no less valid than your own.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
>>> think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes
>>> a wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps
>>> other needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may
>>> indeed be asocial morons, but it is probably because they have
>>> different needs that they have chosen differently, and for them
>>> the decision isn't that stupid, not because they may or may not be
>>> asocial morons.
>>> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
>>> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good
>>> they are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4
>>> liter gas engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic
>>> sized vehicle. Without any particular care paid to how I drive in
>>> terms of frugality, I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as
>>> much attention to coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners
>>> use to try to get anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd
>>> easy be over 40mpg. A Prius using all the tricks in the book
>>> doesn't get much better than that. My current "dream car" is a
>>> 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which (really) gets 50mpg. I want one
>>> because it would reduce my fuel expenditures and emissions. The
>>> same reasons Prius owners buy their cars, but I don't wear it like
>>> a badge on my arm.
>> Cool... I've always had a thing for Fiat. From your headers it
>> looks like you're in the US; does anyone currently import Fiats into
>> the States?
>>
>
> Not that I'm aware of. VW makes some cars that are just as good (but
> not as cool IMO) and since they already have a whole distribution
> setup in the US it would be easier to deal with to get them to bring
> them to the US.

I doubt that Fiat could compete on both cost AND quality with
domestically produced vehicles by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. There is a
reason that the only European made cars available in the US [1] are
those that have "European Heritage and Mystique" prestige value.

[1] The VWs available in the US are either upmarket models, or made in
low labor cost Mexico and Brasil.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 3:11 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 22, 8:09 pm, "Leo Lichtman" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> "Gooserider" wrote: Well, that's not exactly true. The H3 is based on the
>
> >> Chevy Colorado pickup.> It has nothing at all in common with a true Humvee.
>
> >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> Isn't that what "pseudo" means?
>
> >> On topic, and not in response to Gooserider: When I see people driving
> >> those pseudo-military vehicles I form a low opinion of them for several
> >> reasons. 1.) The vehicle is impractical--as big as it is, it holds only
> >> five people. 2.) It is unnecessarily large and heavy so it causes more
> >> crowding uses more fuel and pollutes more. 3.) All the things that make me
> >> like Prious owners are the things that weigh against Hummer owners.
>
> > Just based on my observations, I'd say there is a big difference in
> > the usage patterns of H3's vs Prius's (Prii?). I'd bet the average
> > Prius is used mostly for long commutes with one person in the car.
> > H3's probably also spend most of their time with only one person too,
> > but I'd bet they also generally are not driven as far, and more often
> > than a Prius have more than one person aboard (kids) and more often
> > carry cargo (suitcases, **** from Ikea, etc). So if you look at fuel
> > spent per person/kilometer or fuel per cargo/km the H3 doesn't look so
> > bad. Sure there are other big(ger) cars that offer even more utility,
> > but I'm just saying that an H3 isn't as dumb as many would like to
> > think.
>
> I pretty much see H3s with a single occupant. As for carrying cargo, the
> H3 is rather small inside - I could likely get almost as much stuff in
> my Honda Civic.
>
> A minivan will use less gas and haul a whole lot more than a H3, and
> will handle better in the bargain.
>
> > Reading a book by it's cover is something everyone does. I'm sure lots
> > of Prius owners and other people who think poorly of Hummer owners
> > wouldn't have such a dim view of someone driving along a VW Multivan.
> > If they saw such a car on the freeway headed to SF from San Jose, they
> > might even think highly of the driver. The funny thing is the Syncro
> > Multivan weighs more than an H3 and uses more gas.
>
> The VW Multivan is in a whole different different class when it comes to
> passenger and cargo space.
>

Sure the Multivan has more capacity, but is the presence of (probably
unused) capacity to carry a few more golf bags the difference between
being an ascocial moron or not?

Consider this scenario:

A Prius driver (could be other cars too of course) is driving alone in
the carpool lane on I-580 near San Jose. Traffic bogs down and they
find themselves stopped next to an H3 in a normal lane also with a
lone driver.

The Prius driver might think to themselves, that person is probably a
jerk, why do they think they have a right to waste gas and threaten
people with their outsized vehicle?

Later the same driver is stopped next to a Multivan also with one
driver. Does the Prius driver automatically have a similarly dim view
of the Multivan driver? Probably not, because they are not prejudiced
against such cars even though it this context it is just as wasteful
and threatening. They might even think they were some kind of
enlightened sophisticate. Whatever it is that they think differently
about them, it isn't because the Multivan has more interior space,
it's because it looks different.

The point is you can't have any idea about how somebody uses their car
when it is out of your view, yet people (myself included) make huge
assumptions about people they don't even know based entirely on the
appearance of their car.

Here's what a Multivan is for those not familiar with them:

http://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/index.php?action=caravelle.main

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 10:06 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 23, 11:42 pm, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> As I said, this was based on my observation. That's my only data.
> >>> Do these people you know who drive a Prius, do they have kids?
> >>> While I don't doubt they are socially conscious people, the only
> >>> thing that really matters is how much utility they get in terms
> >>> number of people and amount of cargo actually transported for the
> >>> amount of fuel they use. The same goes for any car, H3's included.
> >>> I think anyone who thinks that an H3 doesn't spend more of it's
> >>> miles with more people in it than a Prius does with it's miles is
> >>> mistaken.
> >> While H3s and especially H2s are thankfully rare in this town, I do
> >> spot them from time to time and I have yet to see one of either
> >> model carrying more than two occupants (including the driver). So
> >> no, I don't think the average H3 spends more of its miles with more
> >> people in it than a Prius; in fact, I'd venture it's probably the
> >> other way around. That's based on my personal observation, which is
> >> no more and no less valid than your own.
>
> >>> I agree that car choices say quite a bit about someone. But I also
> >>> think that applying one's own set of criteria for what constitutes
> >>> a wise car choice for one's own needs to others and their perhaps
> >>> other needs makes everyone else appear an asocial moron. They may
> >>> indeed be asocial morons, but it is probably because they have
> >>> different needs that they have chosen differently, and for them
> >>> the decision isn't that stupid, not because they may or may not be
> >>> asocial morons.
> >>> I personally think Prius drivers come off as a smug bunch of self-
> >>> righteous folks who are fooling themselves about how much good
> >>> they are accomplishing. I drive a 10 year old Fiat with a 1.4
> >>> liter gas engine. A Bravo 3 door hatchback, sort of a Honda Civic
> >>> sized vehicle. Without any particular care paid to how I drive in
> >>> terms of frugality, I get a real-world 38+mpg. If I paid half as
> >>> much attention to coasting on hills, and other tricks Prius owners
> >>> use to try to get anywhere near the advertised mpg claims, I'd
> >>> easy be over 40mpg. A Prius using all the tricks in the book
> >>> doesn't get much better than that. My current "dream car" is a
> >>> 2008 Fiat Grande Punto which (really) gets 50mpg. I want one
> >>> because it would reduce my fuel expenditures and emissions. The
> >>> same reasons Prius owners buy their cars, but I don't wear it like
> >>> a badge on my arm.
> >> Cool... I've always had a thing for Fiat. From your headers it
> >> looks like you're in the US; does anyone currently import Fiats into
> >> the States?
>
> > Not that I'm aware of. VW makes some cars that are just as good (but
> > not as cool IMO) and since they already have a whole distribution
> > setup in the US it would be easier to deal with to get them to bring
> > them to the US.
>
> I doubt that Fiat could compete on both cost AND quality with
> domestically produced vehicles by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. There is a
> reason that the only European made cars available in the US [1] are
> those that have "European Heritage and Mystique" prestige value.
>
> [1] The VWs available in the US are either upmarket models, or made in
> low labor cost Mexico and Brasil.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

Probably true. But quality has made huge strides since the disaster
years of the 70's. Fiat is the most common foreign make in Germany,
and the Germans are tough customers.

But since Fiat goes for the low end, the weak dollar would make it
even more difficult. They might be able to swing it with some of the
more expensive upscale marques like Alfa Romeo or Lancia, but those
have such bad reps in the US, I doubt they would try. Or maybe with
cult cars like the Panda 4x4 or the 500.

Joseph

 

[DI]

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Oct 23, 11:42 pm, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Not that I'm aware of. VW makes some cars that are just as good (but
> not as cool IMO) and since they already have a whole distribution
> setup in the US it would be easier to deal with to get them to bring
> them to the US.
>
> Joseph
>

VW's good as what???? I had a 2001 VW New Beetle, that nearly bankrupted
me on maintenance and repair costs.. It's my last VW, now a Honda and/or
Ford driver.

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 2:01 pm, "DI" <[email protected]> wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > On Oct 23, 11:42 pm, Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> On 2007-10-23, <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Not that I'm aware of. VW makes some cars that are just as good (but
> > not as cool IMO) and since they already have a whole distribution
> > setup in the US it would be easier to deal with to get them to bring
> > them to the US.
>
> > Joseph
>
> VW's good as what???? I had a 2001 VW New Beetle, that nearly bankrupted
> me on maintenance and repair costs.. It's my last VW, now a Honda and/or
> Ford driver.

By "good" I meant in terms of fuel economy and driving feel. I had a
2000 Jetta that was fine, and a 2000 Beetle that sucked in terms of
quality and problems. It'll be a long time until I get a new VW too.
The dealers were no good either.

Joseph

 

[nmp]

[email protected] wrote:

> Just like it is of course true that not all Prius drivers are smug
> jerks, neither are all Hummer drivers asocial morons.

If they are not, then why do they drive such a monstruous vehicle?

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 24, 3:54 pm, nmp <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > Just like it is of course true that not all Prius drivers are smug
> > jerks, neither are all Hummer drivers asocial morons.
>
> If they are not, then why do they drive such a monstruous vehicle?

Oh no, here we go again!

We are talking about H3's here, and they are not really that big. But
the reason they are not ALL morons is that some of them occasionally
use the carrying capacity they have. Maybe just to haul the BMI
challenged bodies of their family around, or maybe to haul tubs of hot
soup to a homeless shelter. (Hey! It could happen!)

Joseph

 

[nmp]

[email protected] wrote:

> On Oct 24, 3:54 pm, nmp <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>> > Just like it is of course true that not all Prius drivers are smug
>> > jerks, neither are all Hummer drivers asocial morons.
>>
>> If they are not, then why do they drive such a monstruous vehicle?
>
> Oh no, here we go again!



> We are talking about H3's here, and they are not really that big.

I know. About the same as a Volvo luxury estate. But a fair bit higher
and a lot boxier. And uglier.

> But the reason they are not ALL morons is that some of them
> occasionally use the carrying capacity they have. Maybe just to haul
> the BMI challenged bodies of their family around, or maybe to haul tubs
> of hot soup to a homeless shelter. (Hey! It could happen!)

Yeah. Right. This is not what people buy Hummers for, and you know it.

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Oct 24, 10:06 am, Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> ...
>> I doubt that Fiat could compete on both cost AND quality with
>> domestically produced vehicles by Honda, Toyota, Nissan, etc. There is a
>> reason that the only European made cars available in the US [1] are
>> those that have "European Heritage and Mystique" prestige value.
>>
>> [1] The VWs available in the US are either upmarket models, or made in
>> low labor cost Mexico and Brasil.
>
> Probably true. But quality has made huge strides since the disaster
> years of the 70's. Fiat is the most common foreign make in Germany,
> and the Germans are tough customers.
>
> But since Fiat goes for the low end, the weak dollar would make it
> even more difficult. They might be able to swing it with some of the
> more expensive upscale marques like Alfa Romeo or Lancia, but those
> have such bad reps in the US, I doubt they would try. Or maybe with
> cult cars like the Panda 4x4 or the 500.

When the cost of trans-Atlantic shipping is added, non-luxury European
cars are not going to be competitive with US made, Japanese brand cars
in the US, even if quality and manufacturing costs are the same.

Just like bicycles - those from Europe are generally high end or
specialty bikes, with the low to midrange generally being from
democratic China or fascist China.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
>
> Consider this scenario:
>
> A Prius driver (could be other cars too of course) is driving alone in
> the carpool lane on I-580 near San Jose. Traffic bogs down and they
> find themselves stopped next to an H3 in a normal lane also with a
> lone driver.
>
> The Prius driver might think to themselves, that person is probably a
> jerk, why do they think they have a right to waste gas and threaten
> people with their outsized vehicle?
>
> Later the same driver is stopped next to a Multivan also with one
> driver. Does the Prius driver automatically have a similarly dim view
> of the Multivan driver? Probably not, because they are not prejudiced
> against such cars even though it this context it is just as wasteful
> and threatening. They might even think they were some kind of
> enlightened sophisticate. Whatever it is that they think differently
> about them, it isn't because the Multivan has more interior space,
> it's because it looks different.
>
> The point is you can't have any idea about how somebody uses their car
> when it is out of your view, yet people (myself included) make huge
> assumptions about people they don't even know based entirely on the
> appearance of their car.

You are missing the point. Vehicles are marketed to project a certain
image, and what one chooses makes a statement. A Mercedes-Benz S-Class
or BMW 7-Series yells, "look at me, I can afford this car and you can't,
so stay the hell out of my way." A Hummer says "I'm a bad-ass driving a
bad-ass vehicle, so stay the hell out of my way." A minivan says "I have
a lot of stuff to haul around."

> Here's what a Multivan is for those not familiar with them:
>
> http://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/index.php?action=caravelle.main

Sold as the "Eurovan" in the US.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

 

[Tom Sherman]

[email protected] aka Joseph Santaniello wrote:
> On Oct 24, 3:54 pm, nmp <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> Just like it is of course true that not all Prius drivers are smug
>>> jerks, neither are all Hummer drivers asocial morons.
>> If they are not, then why do they drive such a monstruous vehicle?
>
> Oh no, here we go again!
>
> We are talking about H3's here, and they are not really that big. But
> the reason they are not ALL morons is that some of them occasionally
> use the carrying capacity they have. Maybe just to haul the BMI
> challenged bodies of their family around, or maybe to haul tubs of hot
> soup to a homeless shelter. (Hey! It could happen!)

For half the purchase price and half the fuel usage, a minivan would do
the aforementioned just as well, be a more pleasant vehicle to drive,
and would be the better choice for the 99.9% of people who do not need
off-road capability.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore!

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> writes:
> On 2007-10-23, Tom Keats <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Mark Shroyer <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> So are you really arguing that the decreased maneuverability and
>>> braking ability (not to mention visibility) of these stupidly
>>> oversized vehicles do not have any safety implications, turning
>>> dangerous drivers into even more dangerous ones? Or am I just
>>> misreading you?
>>
>> I'm saying street-racing cars (and their immature,
>> inexperienced drivers who think they know everything)
>> pose a greater danger to the public.
>>
>> Hummer drivers generally don't hurtle their vehicles
>> so much.
>
> Huh... it seems that we have quite different subspecies of Hummer
> drivers in our respective locales. Fortunately Hummers are
> relatively rare in my town, because the ones I do see are driven
> (and parked, but that's another rant) as by complete idiots.

From what I've seen, our local Hummer drivers tend to
tread somewhat carefully. They keep their vehicles
immaculately clean. They'd probably have a fit if you
climbed into it with a half-melted Klondike bar in
your hand. They certainly don't want to mess their
expensive vehicles up, especially with collisions.
Maybe it's an insurance thing.

>> It's not just about the vehicles -- it's also about
>> the drivers who hurtle them.
>>
>> Porsche 944 & Boxter drivers are especially scary.
>
> I guess it must be a regional thing again. Ricer drivers,
> certainly, but I can't say I've ever felt threatened by someone in a
> Porsche.

In my experience those people think they're kings of a
world which is their personal oyster, and everybody else
is just in their way. Maybe Porsches are our local
gangstas' bling du jour? I dunno.

> (And I have no idea what the underlying root of
> correlation might be, but they always seem to use their turn signals
> properly...)
>
> Anyway, what you originally said was:
>
>> Souped-up Civics, Lexuses, Maximas, Cavaliers, et al
>> are just as deadly.
>>
>> They don't even have to be souped-up.
>
> You're correct that you can't take the driver out of the equation.
> But idiotic, selfish drivers will be idiotic, selfish drivers no
> matter what vehicle you put them in. And an idiotic, selfish driver
> in a Civic, Lexus, Maxima, or Cavalier, while certainly dangerous,
> holds much less potential for harm than one in a Hummer.

There has been a lot of newsworthy deaths & injuries here
resulting from street racing, mostly by kids who have had
maybe two years of driving experience, haven't even yet
reached the age of 20, and think they know everything.

Then again, there's also been a lot of newsworthy deaths &
injuries here resulting from drivers just not looking out.

Just because a car is designed to flip pedestrians into
the windshield or over the roof instead of mowing them down,
doesn't mean it's "safe". I know I don't wanna be flipped
into a windshield again.

The WHO has some horrendous stats on traffic-related deaths.
I can look them up and give you a URL cite if you like, but
I'm afraid it'll take time as I'm working afternoon shift
and really can only access the WWW on weekends.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

 

[[email protected]]

On Oct 25, 5:31 am, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:
>
> Just because a car is designed to flip pedestrians into
> the windshield or over the roof instead of mowing them down,
> doesn't mean it's "safe". I know I don't wanna be flipped
> into a windshield again.

It's easy to argue that _no_ car is "safe." You just have to choose
your definition of "safe" to fit your preconceptions.

But it's hard to argue that an SUV is as safe as, say, a Honda with
regard to pedestrian harm. (Or is _should_ be hard to argue that. I
guess on Usenet, it's easy to argue anything.)

The tall, squarish fronts of SUVs do a lot more damage to pedestrians
than sloping hoods of ordinary cars. The impact with the body is much
more sudden. The forces are much higher. That's even without the SUV
"bull bars," which tend to act something like french fry cutters.

- Frank Krygowski