Safety: Clincher vs. Tubies in Hills

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Remove The Poli, May 18, 2003.

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  1. I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.

    This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.

    The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    and start cursing.

    opinions?
     
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  2. On Sun, 18 May 2003 03:21:48 -0400, remove the polite word to reply wrote:

    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.
    >
    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?

    If you want to use tubulars, by all means do so. You don't need to concoct fanciful justifications
    for doing so. The reality, however, is that the vast majority of people riding in the hills do so on
    clinchers, and they don't have problems such as you describe.
     
  3. DR-<< This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am
    rolling on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.

    In spite of the next post about fantasy, a flat clincher is much more likely to come off a rim when
    flat than a properly glued tubie.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  4. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "remove the polite word to reply" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.
    >
    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?

    I've seen a lot more people crash as a result of a rolled tubular than as a result of a sudden flat
    when cornering.

    Andy Coggan
     
  5. You are correct. If a tubular, or "sew-up" went flat, the glue would still hold the rubber on the
    rim, and you would still be riding on rubber. Flat rubber, albeit, but even that is safer than
    trying to corner on aluminum.

    Clincher tires are held onto the rim by air pressure

    May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear for the hills! Chris

    Chris'Z Corner "The Website for the Common Bicyclist": http://www.geocities.com/czcorner
     
  6. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (remove
    the polite word to reply) wrote:

    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.

    Not from a slow leak. You'd notice the softening of the tire, stop and fix it long before you got to
    this point. Unless you're an idiot, that is.

    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?

    Miguel Indurain used to switch from tubulars to clinchers for the mountain stages of the Tour
    because he felt they were safer. So that was his opinion.

    Now, where I live, the descents are all located on (at most) 500 foot tall hills, the vast majority
    of which require no braking. Tubulars or clinchers makes no difference. Last summer when I was in
    the Alps, descending hills ten times or more as tall, through switchbacks and on sketchy pavement at
    times, I was glad that I had clinchers and didn't have to worry about the glue softening and the
    tire creeping around the rim until it tore out the valve or rolled off the rim.
     
  7. Bfd

    Bfd Guest

    OK, I'll start, as someone who is "PRO-CHOICE", I will protect my right and those of thousands of
    others to choose - the right to use tubulars! I don't use tubulars, never will, but I will fight to
    protect the right of those who
    do. Yes, it may be wrong (what do you do when you get more flats than the number of tires you
    carry?) Yes, it may be messy (all that glue...), and Yes, you need to know how to sew (ugh,
    butterfingers...) But those who "choose" to ride tubular have the same rights as the rest of us
    and hey, if they believe it gives them an "advantage", they might as well learn how to remove
    and replace them, safely...In contrast, all those "right to lifers" are always screaming about
    the horrors and dangers of tubulars rolling off the rim or glue melting on long descents causing
    massive death and destruction to the unwary clincher users. These "right to lifers" are always
    saying "abstinence" is the only way to stop the usage of tubulars....But remember, there will
    always be people who ride tubulars, whether its legal or not, moral or not, therefore, in order
    to protect the rights and safety of not only tubular users but all cyclist everywhere, it needs
    to be legal....Brewster "roll v. walk" Fong

    "remove the polite word to reply" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.
    >
    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?
     
  8. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "remove the polite word to reply" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.
    >
    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?

    You're not supposed to say that here. People who don't ride tubulars "know" they are no good and are
    in the majority. Besides, all the money is in clinchers so the their advertsing and sponsoships make
    tubulars nearly invisible today.
    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  9. On Sun, 18 May 2003 00:21:48 +0000, remove the polite word to reply wrote:

    > I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    > _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.
    >
    > This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am rolling
    > on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.
    >
    > The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out around
    > corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    > improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    > and start cursing.
    >
    > opinions?

    I disagree. For one thing, you don't want to avoid riding just because it's hot, do you? It does
    depend on your weight as well, but I have melted glue more than once. It doesn't matter how much
    glue is on there if you over-heat the rim, it will melt no matter how well-glued and the tire will
    go where it wants to.

    The difference in behavior of clincher-vs-tubulars in a flat is overrated.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster. --Greg LeMond _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |
     
  10. Russell Yim

    Russell Yim Guest

    If you get a sudden flat going 'round a curve down the side a mountain, I say you are going
    down...hard...regardless if you've got clinchers or tubulars.

    So stop worrying about it, and ride whatever the heck kinda tires you want.
     
  11. Mike Krueger

    Mike Krueger Guest

    << For one thing, you don't want to avoid riding just because it's hot, do you? It does depend on
    your weight as well, but I have melted glue more than once. It doesn't matter how much glue is on
    there if you over-heat the rim, it will melt no matter how well-glued and the tire will go where it
    wants to. The difference in behavior of clincher-vs-tubulars in a flat is overrated. << David L.
    Johnson >>

    I switched from clinchers to tubulars about ten years ago, and have never regretted it. My tubular
    wheels are light and ride very smoothly. I now run 95-100psi in the front tire without fear of pinch
    flats. On the very rare occasion that I do get a puncture, it often manifests itself as a slow leak,
    and I can ride it several miles, or even make it home if I am not too far away. This just doesn't
    happen with a clincher which will deflate immediately. In the worst case, where I have to change a
    tire on the road, it is much faster to replace a tubular than to replace a clincher inner tube. That
    said, there may be some truth to the arguement that rim cement will melt on long mountain descents.
    However, like many people, I do not live in an area where there are high mountains. I do virtually
    all my riding in NJ, where even the modest hills are sufficiently challenging on a 50mi Sunday
    morning ride.
     
  12. On Mon, 19 May 2003 11:40:47 +0000, Mike Krueger wrote:

    > I switched from clinchers to tubulars about ten years ago, and have never regretted it.

    I did the opposite, and ditto. Chaqu'on a son gout.

    > My tubular wheels are light and ride very smoothly. I now run 95-100psi in the front tire without
    >fear of pinch flats. On the very rare occasion that I do get a puncture, it often manifests itself
    >as a slow leak, and I can ride it several miles, or even make it home if I am not too far away.
    >This just doesn't happen with a clincher which will deflate immediately.

    You've never had a slow leak with a clincher? It actually does happen, and having to depend on being
    able to get home before it goes flat is not the best option, IMO.

    > worst case, where I have to change a tire on the road, it is much faster to replace a tubular than
    > to replace a clincher inner tube.

    Much faster? Somewhat faster, since you don't have to check the tire for problems, perhaps. But
    removing a tubular tire from the rim can take time, if it is well-glued.

    > That said, there may be some truth to the arguement that rim cement will melt on long mountain
    > descents. However, like many people, I do not live in an area where there are high mountains. I do
    > virtually all my riding in NJ, where even the modest hills are sufficiently challenging on a 50mi
    > Sunday morning ride.

    It doesn't have to be that long, if it is steep enough. Go descend Fiddler's Elbow (in West-Central
    NJ) on a hot day.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or _`\(,_ | that we are to
    stand by the president right or wrong, is not (_)/ (_) | only unpatriotic and servile, but is
    morally treasonable to the American public. --Theodore Roosevelt
     
  13. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    Tim McNamara writes:

    >> I as just riding hills today with clinchers, for ease of repair actually, but I think they are
    >> _less_ safe than tubulars on downhills.

    >> This is because if I get a slow leak on a clincher, the tire may go flat and suddenly I am
    >> rolling on a rim around a corner, and fall down go boom.

    > Not from a slow leak. You'd notice the softening of the tire, stop and fix it long before you got
    > to this point. Unless you're an idiot, that is.

    >> The risk for a tubular is rolling, but if you glue it even halfway decent and don't max out
    >> around corners in 100 degree heat, the risk of rolling seems very very low, you get the safety
    >> improvement that even if you flat, the tire will probably stay on the rim, allowing you to stop
    >> and start cursing.

    > Miguel Indurain used to switch from tubulars to clinchers for the mountain stages of the Tour
    > because he felt they were safer. So that was his opinion.

    I know why he made that choice and I'm sure most others do likewise. Rim glue is what is known as a
    "pressure sensitive" adhesive that we find all around us, even on postage stamps. These glues are
    all also temperature sensitive and melt when hot. All this hypothetical conjecture about tires being
    ridable when flat is nonsense for two reasons. First, glue melting on steep descents will make the
    tubular come off for sure, and riding on a good road racing clincher works as well as on a tubular
    unless deep bed easy-mount tire rims are used. That is a good reason to not use rims that allow
    changing tires with the touch of a finger.

    My first ride in the alps was so plagued with melting glue that I switched to wood rims where this
    is not a problem, although they are also a big headache for braking, there being no heat sink, brake
    pads burn off quickly..

    http://tinyurl.com/c543

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  14. On Mon, 19 May 2003 [email protected] wrote:

    ... a lot of things I mostly wholeheartedly agree with.

    Let me add something, however.

    It does happen that clinchers pop off the rims. The reason being that, altough one would want a
    tight fit, it is not at all practical to try several rim-clincher combinations before adopting the
    perfect one. Plus, it is hard to convince people that those that are hard to mount are the good
    choice; but, that is their problem!

    Tubular tires are meant for racing, when braking is minimal and in pulses. While racing, it
    rarely happens (though somewhere it does happen) that one must brake in a continuus manner not to
    pick up too much speed. Tubular tires, if glued properly and well inflated, are indeed quite safe
    unless too hot. Once you get a flat you better monouver carefully to a halt, whichever tire you
    have down there.

    Wooden rims? I wish I had the appropriate pad material for wooden rims. Rubber and/or leather work
    fine, but they wear off much too fast.

    Yours

    Sergio Pisa
    P.s. Just back from Piccolo and Gran San Bernardo, still closed in the upper sections.
     
  15. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:p[email protected]...

    > On Mon, 19 May 2003 [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > ... a lot of things I mostly wholeheartedly
    agree with.
    >
    > Let me add something, however.
    >
    > It does happen that clinchers pop off the rims. The reason
    being that,
    > altough one would want a tight fit, it is not at all
    practical to try
    > several rim-clincher combinations before adopting the
    perfect one.
    > Plus, it is hard to convince people that those that are
    hard to mount are
    > the good choice; but, that is their problem!
    >
    > Tubular tires are meant for racing, when braking is
    minimal and in
    > pulses. While racing, it rarely happens (though somewhere
    it does happen)
    > that one must brake in a continuus manner not to pick up
    too much speed.

    Tubulars weren't "meant" for anything. They were simply the only lightweight, low RR tires available
    for many years, until the market was big enough to make clinchers suitable for racing. Until that
    time, tubulars prevailed because they could be made in small volumes by hand. After good clinchers
    came along, it took another 30 years for the "common wisdom" to catch up.

    > Tubular tires, if glued properly and well inflated, are
    indeed quite safe
    > unless too hot. Once you get a flat you better monouver carefully to a
    halt, whichever
    > tire you have down there.
    >
    > Wooden rims? I wish I had the appropriate pad material for wooden rims. Rubber and/or leather work
    > fine, but they wear off much
    too fast.

    Tubular tires and wooden rims are both a PITA. So are all-leather saddles. However, some people love
    this stuff, probably because they get off on the esoteric knowledge and skill surrounding its use --
    as if the excess fussiness makes their pursuits seem more important. Or maybe they just don't have
    enough to do.

    Flame away, I don't care...

    Matt O.
     
  16. On Mon, 19 May 2003, Matt O'Toole wrote:

    > Flame away, I don't care...

    To flame, or not to flame ... .

    I had written:
    > "Sergio SERVADIO" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > > Tubular tires are meant for racing, when braking is
    > minimal and in pulses.

    Matt countered:

    > Tubulars weren't "meant" for anything. They were simply the only lightweight, low RR tires
    > available for many years, until the market was big enough to make clinchers suitable for racing.

    Matt, can you read and appreciate the present tense I used? Let me reiterate and be more complete,
    if possible. To those who use them, tubular tires are meant for racing, when braking is minimal and
    in pulses. If thou are not convinced, ask those who still use them. I never said tubulars were
    introduced to race on them.

    > > Wooden rims? I wish I had the appropriate pad material for wooden rims. Rubber and/or leather
    > > work fine, but they wear off much
    > too fast.
    >
    > Tubular tires and wooden rims are both a PITA.

    PITA, what's a pita? Pita bread, perhaps?

    What's bad about asking a question about wooden rims. I made them for a friend who was restoring a
    1936 bike, and so I also made another pair for myself. Just for the kicks. So what's wrong? What's
    wrong if I now would like to safely use them also on mountain roads?

    > However, some people love this stuff, probably because they get off on the
    > esoteric knowledge and skill surrounding its use -- as if the excess fussiness
    > makes their pursuits seem more important.

    I tell you, one can pick up a lot of skills in carrying on such projects. That was a good enough
    reason for me. Never regretted.

    > Or maybe they just don't have enough to do.

    Learning is always good, and it always repays. If you can learn, that is.

    > Flame away, I don't care...

    Nor, did I really. Sincerely.

    Sergio Pisa
     
  17. Jon Isaacs

    Jon Isaacs Guest

    >My tubular wheels are light and ride very smoothly. I now run 95-100psi in the front tire without
    >fear of pinch flats. On the very rare occasion that I do get a puncture, it often manifests itself
    >as a slow leak, and I can ride it several miles,

    > or even make it home if I am not too far away. This just doesn't happen with a clincher which
    > will deflate immediately. In the worst case, where I have to change a tire on the road, it is
    > much faster
    to
    >replace a tubular >than to replace a clincher inner tube.

    It is true that the tubular is quicker to change but there are a couple of other issues to consider.

    1. How many spares can you carry. In areas where the famous goat head thorn resides, having flats
    on both tires is not uncommon. If you carry two spare tubulars, any weight advantage you might
    have has disappeared.

    2. If you replace a tubular on the road, the tire will not be glued on properly. With a clincher, a
    repair is ready to go and permenent.

    The bottomline for me is cost. Tubulars cost money and/or time when they flat. Clinchers just need a
    bit of effort and a new/repaired tube.

    jon isaacs

    For Sergio: PITA = Pain In The Ass
     
  18. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

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    Ever since the introduction of quality high-pressure clinchers ~1985 (about the same time as the first "slicks" - Avocet Criterium 20's and Specialized FastGrip?) sew-ups have been losing favor. I don't know anybody who still rides them for regular riding but I know a lot of folks (including myself) who have a set for special events.

    If you want something special for a criterium or a "mountain challenge" they're worth considering and neither of Jon's comments apply, if you want to restore a vintage bike sew-ups make sense. If you want everyday wheels with puncture resistance and ease of repair then sew-ups don't make any sense at all.
     
  19. On Tue, 20 May 2003 00:54:53 -0400, Sergio SERVADIO wrote:

    >> Tubular tires and wooden rims are both a PITA.
    >
    > PITA, what's a pita? Pita bread, perhaps?

    "P"ain "I"n "T"he "A"ss
     
  20. diablo-<< I don't know anybody who still rides them for regular riding but I know a lot of folks
    (including myself) who have a set for special events.

    You don't 'know' me but I ride them everyday, don't race. Many of the people here in Boulder ride
    them everyday(don't race).

    I see no compelling reason to switch from tubies to clinchers, for me(I repair mine, BTW)...

    << If you want everyday wheels with puncture resistance ..

    Tell me how a clincher is less prone to punctures than sew-ups, use Conti tires as an example....

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
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