Saw an intelligent bicyclist today

  • Thread starter Speeders & Drunk Drivers are MURDERERS
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On Mar 3, 7:30 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Mar 3, 7:18 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 3, 5:48 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 3, 4:31 pm, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > So do you believe this situation is so pervasive, that bicycle
> > > > damage to cars actually does exceed that from other motor vehicles?

>
> > > No, I believe the "data" frank requested to "prove" him wrong was
> > > blatantly biased, unfair, and not a quality example.

>
> > Don't dance around the question, Dan. The question was whether
> > bicycle damage to cars exceeds damage to cars caused by other motor
> > vehicles. Do you really believe it does?

>
> > Either "yes" or "no" should be your first word. Explanation and
> > documentation should follow.

>
> > - Frank Krygowski

>
> Frank, my first word in response to the question was *"No"*. Your
> reading comprehension is lacking. Dancing around the issue? Get a
> grip man.


Sorry, I should read more slowly. Since all the rest of that sentence
was vehemently disagreeing with what I said, I suppose it distracted
me.

I won't try to ask about why you think crash repair costs don't tell
the real story of crash repair costs. It's enough that you agree that
cars cause more damage than bikes.

- Frank Krygowski
 
S

Stephen Harding

Guest
Stephen Harding wrote:
> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>
>> You expect everyone else to change *their* speed for you, but find it
>> exceedingly rude for them to want you to change your speed for them.
>>
>> The inherent contradiction in your position *should* make your head
>> explode.
>>
>> LOL. You MFFYs are the dumbest folks on the planet.

>
> *I'M DOING THE DAMN SPEED LIMIT OR ABOVE BRENT!!*


Sorry. All you characters are beginning to merge into one
driver madly flashing their headlights, doing 90 mph and
thinking they don't really need to abide by speed limits
or traffic stops.

I guess it's an instance of "Ed" rather than "Brent".


SMH
 
N

Nate Nagel

Guest
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Brent P? wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> I want speed limits set properly and lane discipline to be the
>> priority. Nothing 'unregulated' about it. The condition we have today
>> is chaos compared to what I propose. What I propose is orderly and
>> safe limited access highways unlike today's cluster f*ck of drivers
>> scatttered *****-nilly all over the road in different lanes.[...]

>
>
> The USians need to learn from the Germans and ticket the "left lane
> bandits" and right hand passers.
>


Damn straight. But for the time being, please concentrate on the LLBs
first; then when they're taken care of take care of those that pass on
the right (first, because many states have legalized passing on the
right, and secondly, because otherwise a single LLB can jam an entire
freeway.)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Brent P wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Brent P? wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph, but anyway... I just don't
>>>>> have anyone come out of nowhere up on to my bumper when I move out to
>>>>> pass. Sometimes it happens when I am cruising over to the right, but
>>>>> generally those folks are doing over 100mph.
>>>
>>>> Well, the large trucks often do not move faster than that due to traffic.
>>> Only when no one else is IME.

>
>> Well, in urban traffic the trucks generally move more slowly than the
>> cars, due to slow acceleration.

>
> More slowly yes, 55mph or slower... when everyone else is. Then again I
> live in an area where even the semis occasionally use the shoulder as a
> passing lane.
>
>>>> Well, they are ignorant or badly behaved for driving slower than traffic
>>>> in the middle and/or left lanes, but that does not excuse passing them
>>>> on the right.
>>> Excuse? Why does it have to be excused? It's not illegal and no way am I
>>> going to give some LLB control freak the power to sit in the left lane
>>> and force everyone else to go his chosen speed.

>
>> Illegal and wrong are two different things. Passing on the right is poor
>> behavior, and if the legislature had some sense in the matter, it would
>> be a moving violation (as would being a "left lane bandit"). Neither
>> behavior would be tolerated in a civilized country.

>
> If the legislature cared about proper traffic flow it would have the keep
> right except to pass law even stronger and ENFORCED at least as much as
> 'speeding'. Instead what you are telling me, is that when I am driving
> along at my chosen speed in the right most lane, that I should brake and
> slow down because I catch up to some asshat driving slower in one of the
> lanes to my left? That is rather assinine and would only be endorced by
> someone trying to make a usenet score or a complete passing lane blocking
> control freak asshole. Which one are you?
>

On a three lane road, the left lane is still available to pass.

> Do you really want to empower someone going much slower than you want to
> go blocking the whole road up legally by just choosing the left lane?
>

No, I leave enough of a gap for people to get through on a two lane
road, or pass on the left on a three lane. Two wrongs do not make a right.

>>>> Passing on the right again?
>>> Perfectly legal under IL law. Again why do you want to empower LLBs? Are
>>> you one?

>
>> No, I spend as little time in the left lane as possible. But I will not
>> pass on the right, even if some jerk is following me at a distance of 5
>> feet.

>
> So when you are cruising along minding your own buisness and come across
> some asshat LLBing, blocking the left lane, or any lane to your left, you
> just brake or otherwise slow down so you won't pass him? Holy ****... do
> you know what sort of chaos you are part of the cause of behind you?
>

If people behind me are not following too closely, they will not have a
problem. I slow done well in advance, so I do not have to brake. It is
not my fault some moron is blocking traffic.

> You're enabling the left lane blocker to create a moving road block.
> Vehicles clumping up behind you.... even people going no faster than you
> are getting caught in the clump. (remember, you slowed down not to pass
> the LLB) No wonder you get flashed in the right lane. You're a total
> asshole to people behind you. Someone who was happy to stay behind you
> going the same speed you were going will get ****** off when you find
> someone in the left lane to match speeds with and block up the road. He's
> going to see that move as something done on purpose and totally assholish.
>

Why, if they do not care about passing on the right, they can go around
me to the left and pass the offending driver on the right if they so
desire. I have seen way too many people merge right without looking to
risk passing on the right, and there is no way I would ever pass a truck
or bus in their driver's blind spot on the right.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Brent P? wrote:
> In article <[email protected]m>, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mar 2, 11:12 pm, [email protected] (Brent P)
>> wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mar 1, 9:09 pm, [email protected] (Brent P) wrote:
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph...
>>>> Up hills.
>>>> (Sheesh.)
>>> Not any of the hills around here.

>> :) Well THAT clears things up! The hills in Chicago don't slow
>> trucks, therefore there are no hills anywhere that slow trucks!

>
> Holy jump battman. I never said any such thing, but you know that.
>
>> I don't know why the highway departments around here wasted all the
>> money on those "7% grade" signs! They should have checked with racer-
>> boy!

>
> I dunno. The times I've driven through the hills and mountains on the way
> to and from NC and WV I don't recall the trucks dropping to 55mph...
> maybe my memory is off, that could be, but I think they kept it above
> 55mph for the most part. They certainly do through the hills of WI. Now
> they do slow, but 55mph seems to be a floor speed. I suppose there are
> some mountain roads out there where they slow to 45mph or something but
> that is still the limit of their vehicles, I have rarely seen truckers
> restrict themselves to 55mph.
>

In Colorado on I-70, I have passed trucks that were doing 15-20 mph
uphill. (I was doing about 40-45 mph, full throttle in 3rd gear, in a
Rabbit (Golf I).

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
N

Nate Nagel

Guest
Stephen Harding wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>
>>> You expect everyone else to change *their* speed for you, but find it
>>> exceedingly rude for them to want you to change your speed for them.
>>>
>>> The inherent contradiction in your position *should* make your head
>>> explode.
>>>
>>> LOL. You MFFYs are the dumbest folks on the planet.

>>
>>
>> *I'M DOING THE DAMN SPEED LIMIT OR ABOVE BRENT!!*

>
>
> Sorry. All you characters are beginning to merge into one
> driver madly flashing their headlights, doing 90 mph and
> thinking they don't really need to abide by speed limits
> or traffic stops.
>
> I guess it's an instance of "Ed" rather than "Brent".


Not at all. We're just sick of being stuck in the passing lane behind
some old guy in a Buick doing 64 "passing" some other old guy in a Buick
doing 63.9999998.

The VAST majority of LLBs aren't even passing anyone, they're either
just camping out in the left lane for no apparent reason, or even worse,
pacing the car next to them not either in front of or far enough behind
to slip through without some really squidly driving.

That said, I can understand your frustration, but put yourself in the
seat of the guy behind you. He's *expecting* you to do actively hold
him up, because you're driving slow (relatively) in the passing lane and
that's the behavior he's come to expect from other motorists. If you
pass promtply and move over quickly, he'll be pleasantly surprised and
might even acknowledge your courtesy with a wave as he passes. If you
actively block him, you're just another of the rude and/or clueless
masses that make everyday driving unpleasant.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
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T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Brent P? wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>> Brent P wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Well, then, the guy in *front* of you is an asshole. You should flash
>>>>> to pass to let him know that he's holding up the whole passing process.
>>>>>
>>>> And where is the justification for the person behind me to follow too
>>>> closely in that situation?
>>> There generally isn't. But you should be doing something to correct the
>>> problem.
>>>

>> Such as what? Committing the equally bad offense of passing on the
>> right?

>
> Passing on the right 'equally bad'? Drive much in the USA?
>

Yes, and what other industrialized country has as badly trained drivers
as the US?

>> Should I drive off onto the left-hand shoulder or into the median
>> to let the person behind by, so he/she can tailgate the slow person in
>> the left lane?

>
> You can start by trying to wake up the asshole in front of you with your
> car's flash-to-pass feature.
>

That usually gets no reaction - they probably think you are doing the
"cop ahead" signal.

> Considering that you apparently don't find LLBing assholish


Apparently Brent P comprehends incorrectly.

> and aren't
> willing to pass said LLBs on the right, I can only conclude you are a
> passive aggressive asshole who wishes to bottle up the road and control
> everyone else's speed. The LLB and a little twisted logic about the
> horrors of 'passing on the right' and in your own mind you are able to
> accomplish the goal of controling the speed of the road and not see
> yourself as the asshole.
>

Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 3, 4:18 pm, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>> [email protected] wrote:
>>> On Mar 3, 10:39 am, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>> On Mar 3, 9:50 am, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> What class of behavior is that?
>>>>> Seems to me the behavior issue is that of someone with serious
>>>>> attitude issues, and/or no comprehension of driving etiquette, which
>>>>> includes things like flash-to-pass.
>>>> Flash-to-pass is highway rudeness.
>>> No, it is not. It's the proper, polite, and legal way to signal to
>>> traffic in front of you that you wish to overtake them. Not yielding
>>> to the flash-to-pass is rude at the least, and depending where you are
>>> possibly illegal as well. Your misconception of this basic driving
>>> concept is all too common in this country, but that doesn't excuse it.

>> Would you please provide me a cite where not giving way to someone
>> flashing their headlights at you is illegal. I don't think that is
>> the case in MA.

>
> Brent already gave you an example of signal to pass, although in that
> instance the signal mentioned is an audible signal.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/261e7e002dd1e61c
> for reference. That was in this thread. There are other references
> of states laws requiring drivers to yield to other vehicles that have
> indicated intent to pass. They vary on audible (horn) or visual
> (flash-to-pass). I consider a flash more polite than a horn.
>
>
>> When I lived in TX, there was a rule that if three or more cars
>> backed up behind you, you were required to move over (when safe to
>> do so) to let them by.
>>
>> I can see the purpose of light flashing after someone has spent at
>> least a little time stuck behind a vehicle that is merely traveling
>> in a passing lane. Give the guy a little time to complete the pass,
>> and then remind him someone is behind trying to get by. Much like
>> flashing headlights at oncoming cars with high beams on.
>>
>> A gentle reminder is fine.
>>
>> But all too often, I see people roaring up the passing lane rapidly
>> bearing down on others in that lane while flashing their lights to
>> get them out of the way.
>>
>> Such individuals themselves never leave the passing lane. Why would
>> they? There's another car to be passed right ahead. They cover
>> probably tens of miles in the passing lane, flashing the headlights
>> for people to move out of their way.
>>
>> This is not "gentle reminder". It is rude selfish behavior on the
>> part of a driver who feels a public road is entirely his.
>>
>>>> It's not like someone coming on
>>>> with high beams on at night who perhaps is simply unaware of the
>>>> situation. A quite double flash provides a gentle reminder.
>>> You're right, it's a completely different situation. So why are we
>>> talking about oncoming drivers and high beams all of a sudden?

>> Because that's an actual reminder, where flashing of lights is
>> useful for someone who may not be aware his high beams are on.
>>
>> Madly flashing one's lights while driving at high speed in a passing
>> lane is not "gentle reminder". As I said. It's rude selfishness.
>>
>>>> Someone roaring up the passing lane (generally parked in the left
>>>> lane BTW) flashing his headlights madly as he bears down on you
>>>> rear bumper isn't displaying "driving etiquette" in my book. He's
>>>> display rude, selfish behavior.
>>> He's signaling an intent to overtake. How would you like him to
>>> signal? Is your cell number on your rear windshield?

>> I know he's there. Can't he see me passing someone and am simply
>> going slower than he wants? What more information does the clod
>> need to figure out the situation?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> The bottom line in this driving situation is that *I am* passing a
>>>> vehicle. *I am* driving the speed limit or a few mph above it. I
>>>> *am not* parked out in the passing lane. *I am* blocking the flow
>>>> of people who are going faster than I am (although probably not for
>>>> long as there like people ahead of me who aren't going as fast as
>>>> the person flashing their lights wants to be going), but I will
>>>> swing into the right lane when I complete the pass.
>>>> So the issue is simply one of a person not passing fast enough for
>>>> another person behind them.
>>>> I see no reason why, on a *public road*, with *posted speed* being
>>>> met or exceeded by myself, that I am required, legally or by
>>>> "etiquette", to accelerate and complete my pass, so as to produce
>>>> minimal inconvenience for the person behind me wishing to move along
>>>> at a faster speed.
>>> You're not. You should have checked your mirrors and made sure you
>>> had time to complete your pass before you switched lanes.

>> Depends on the road situation.
>>
>> Here in MA, people park themselves in the passing lane. People go
>> quite fast as well. There may never be time to provide someone
>> who is well above the speed limit enough time. Most of the time
>> (on busy highways like the Mass Pike), I'm not the only one blocking
>> the passing lane for the clod. There's a line of cars ahead of me
>> that's he's going to have to flash his way through. All of them
>> actually passing other cars.

>
> I was born and raised in MA. I still work there. You're suggesting
> all the cars in the left lane are passing other cars? IME, especially
> in MA, the left lane is rarely the fastest lane.
>
>
>> If he's doing the speed limit, or at least median traffic speed,
>> this shouldn't be an issue at all. But the mad flashers aren't
>> doing that. They're doing high rates of speed expecting everyone
>> else (out of politeness no doubt) to modify their speed to
>> accommodate them.

>
> I believe the situation you speak of is extremely rare, and you are
> constrewing it into "flash to pass is rude". That is an incorrect
> assessment. Some drivers are rude? Sure. Flash-to-pass is rude?
> No. The examples I run into at least once a week, which I mentioned
> in my post and you snipped, are typical examples of flash-to-pass.
> The only rude thing is the drivers refusing to yield, or worse yet
> braking.
>
>
>>>> Who's being the "thug" in this situation?
>>> Certainly not the person flashing their beams at you, in a gesture
>>> that you clearly misinterpret.

>> I don't think I'm misinterpreting the fellow at all. I know exactly
>> what he's saying. It isn't "Excuse me sir, I'm trying to get by".
>> It's "You'll ruin my day if I have to back off the throttle so get
>> the F* out of my way".
>>
>> It's quite similar to honking the horn. A slight honk can be a
>> "gentle reminder" to someone daydreaming that the light has changed.
>>
>> It can also be a long blast effectively swearing at someone for not
>> being fast enough off the mark when the light changed.

>
> So now you're saying that flash-to-pass can be rude or polite? You're
> getting warmer. Some drivers are rude, and they may or may not
> include their high beams and horn in their rude behavior. That does
> not make flash-to-pass rude in itself.


Yes, but this discussion started with the situation of passing a large
vehicle. How exactly does one yield the left lane when beside a truck in
the right lane? One could finish the pass at a reasonable rate (what was
the action being done in the first place). One could drop back and merge
behind the truck, but that slows left lane traffic even more. One could
speed up and complete the pass more quickly, but that could be dangerous
(e.g. following the vehicle ahead too closely) or result in a moving
violation. Exiting to the left shoulder or median is so silly an idea
that it is only mentioned for the sake of completeness.

If leading driver A does not cut in closely in front of driver B, and
driver A is passing the truck at a reasonable speed differential, then
driver B is being rude if he/she does anything but follow driver A at a
safe distance. Driver A should, of course, merge back to the right as
soon as it is safe after completing the pass.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
S

Stephen Harding

Guest
Brent P wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Stephen Harding wrote:>
>
>>No one is being cut off.

>
> So what made that car appear behind you? Did it decloak? Either you
> didn't look behind you before changing lanes which means you don't care or
> you did but don't care.
>
> I look, I see someone gaining on me at a rate
> where I won't complete the pass before he reaches me, I don't change
> lanes until he's by me. Simple. It is quite obvious you don't do that.


I do not cut anyone off. I most certainly will pull out to pass
when I do not know when my pass might be completed.

How could I know, if there is a line of vehicles to be passed, and
perhaps a line of cars in the passing lane passing in their own
right, how long a pass will take?

I've driven through IL on I-90/I-80 and I know for a fact that the
driving conditions can be the same as here in MA on I-90 (Mass Pike).

I don't believe for a minute that you calculate how long your pass
will take and will sit in lane until a sufficient gap opens in traffic
astern for you to pass in such a way that you cause no "inconvenience"
to others who may be traveling faster than you astern.

>>No one (other than the Mr Speedies) are
>>parked in the passing lane.

>
> Your +2mph is ~= 'parked in the passing lane'.


Says you.

>>Why can't you understand the "public" in public highway?

>
> It is you who cannot understand that the road doesn't belong to regulate
> its speed.


I'm going "my speed" which is the speed limit or slightly above.
Apparently "regulation" of other's speed is merely not getting
out of the way of speeders fast enough.

>>Practice your driving on an old abandoned runway if you can't
>>handle sharing a public roadway with the public.

>
> You people are just a one trick pony... anyone who disagrees with you is
> a boy racer using the roads as a race track.... nonsense.


I haven't seen a whole lot of diversity in thinking from your
camp.

>>I'm not talking "cutting people off" to regulate their speed. I'm
>>not a cop and have no interest in acting like one. If you wish
>>to go 90 mph feel free. Just don't expect me to accelerate up
>>to 90 so you won't have to back off on the throttle.

>
> It seems that you and others do want to act as the road controller. Keep
> right except to pass, make your pass and get over with. You're chastising
> anyone who drives faster than you, but a 2mph speed differential is so
> bloody important to you? 2mph... I don't go around blocking a passing
> lane for a good long time to go 2mph faster than the guy I would be
> 'passing'. I just stay to the right. It's 2mph out of at least 55mph...
> who the f cares? 2mph is important when you're on a bicycle and max out
> around 30mph, but on a limited acccess highway traveling between 55 and
> 85mph it's nothing.


I keep to the right except to pass.

If the speed limit is 65mph and I'm passing someone at 67mph you'll
just have to wait a bit for me to complete my pass. You shouldn't
be doing 80 or 90 anyways.

I don't care if you want to do 180 after you pass me. I just don't
want to be doing 90 to get out of your way. You'll have to wait.

Nothing personal.

>>Montana can keep it's open speed limit if it wants I really don't care.

>
> It's gone.


Last I heard it was unlimited during the day, but "only" 80 at
night.

I've been on Montana roads. That sort of speed limit seems perfectly
reasonable. I don't have a problem with it, although I myself might
choose not to go that fast.

What should a driver do when there is no speed limit and someone is
coming up astern at faster speed?

The speed limit is irrelevant in this case. In the absence of a limit,
drivers should go as fast as they feel comfortable with. Again, persons
coming up from behind at a faster speed will have to wait. The driver
isn't required to accommodate faster movers.

Will you accelerate to 180mph if someone in a Lamborghini comes up
astern of you in Montana (of old)? Or I presume you'll stay put
because you know the guy is haulin' until he passes. What if there
is a line of cars passing a "convoy" of trucks? Do you need to sit
tight until all the cars ahead of you, along with the Lamborghini,
have passed by before starting your pass?

>>Germany can keep unlimited speed on its autobahn if it wants. Hell
>>it can even unregulate speed through downdowns or residential areas
>>if it wants. I don't care!

>
> The control freaks in the european union are coming up with new angles to
> get rid of it.


Why?

I know due to increased traffic, there are fewer and fewer unregulated
speed areas on the autobahn going through major cities. German autobahn
looks very similar to California freeways around some cities.
>
>>I only care about not being bullied into driving in a manner I don't
>>want to drive. I do the speed limit (more or less). I keep right
>>except to pass. I don't cut people off.

>
> If you are getting people 'appearing' behind you all ****** off, you
> clearly are cutting them off or otherwise being rude.


Not if the people themselves are rude, self interested types. *Anyone*
on the road that slows them or prevents their travel pisses them off.
>
>>But I'm not going to change my driving speed, while adequately passing
>>someone, because somebody feels a public road is his private runway.

>
> Your control freakish moral superiority complex is showing again.
>
> Again, you express that you don't care one bit about the traffic gaining
> on you. This makes it clear to me that you just change lanes to make your
> +2mph pass without concern to them needing to brake for you. A MFFY
> move. Then again, considering how they 'appear' suddenly there is the
> possibility you don't use your mirrors well. For someone to 'appear' as
> you describe even on an urban/suburban interstate they have to be doing
> well over 100mph. That just ain't that common.


I have quite good situation awareness driving the interstates. I've
been doing it a long time.

>>>>Not "faith" at all. I already posted plenty of evidence of
>>>>relationships between speed and accident rates and seriousness
>>>>of accidents.

>
>
>>>You repeated ********. Old, tired, politically charged ******** that tis
>>>the driving equal of bicycle helmet zealotary.

>
>
>>>>Only someone with a head of wood would believe it's nothing but
>>>>MADD propaganda.
>>>
>>>It's not my fault you don't know the truth about MADD in the last decade
>>>or so. It's not my fault you never learned how those figures are
>>>generated.
>>>
>>>If a sober driver runs a red signal and hits a driver with a BAC 0.05 who
>>>did nothing wrong, it's an alcohol related crash.

>>
>>Perhaps, but I don't know. My brother-in-law is a MA state trooper
>>and I think he once said it was 0.8 to be alcohol related here.

>
> .8 BAC is dead, it's more than dead, the person died and then some
> replaced blood with alcohol.


Perhaps 0.08 then?

>>However, alcohol effects on driver reflexes is quite well documented
>>and at speeds some feel the right to engage in, I'd think they would
>>need all the reflex capabilities they could muster.

>
> More bicycle helmet zealot equal type stuff.


You're stuck in a bike helmet zealot rut. I've already mentioned I
don't wear a bike helmet and am against mandatory bike helmet laws.

Apparently this makes me a hypocrite in being a free spirit as far as
bike helmet requirements but then am in favor of speed limits. I
don't follow this logic but then, neither of us seem to follow the
other's logic.

I wouldn't have a problem with unlimited speed in MA. Just so long
as I'm not required to sit tight until all persons going faster than
I have passed or I'm required to speed up to "their speed" in order
not to inconvenience them in a pass.


SMH
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Brent P? wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:
>> On Mar 3, 10:04 am, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On Mar 3, 9:50 am, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> "I wanna go faaaster. Get outta my waaay! I'm commin through!
>>>> <honk><honk><light_flash><light_flash>"
>>> Flash-to-pass is NOT "get outta my way", it's "excuse me,
>>> please move to the right". Have you ever been walking down a sidewalk
>>> and had a group of people blocking the whole thing, engrossed in their
>>> conversation or whathaveyou? In that situation, what would you do? I
>>> would say "excuse me", as I have in the past. That's the exact same
>>> thing as flash-to-pass.

>> The situation we've all experienced and are complaining about is not a
>> simple flash-to-pass. Instead, it's this:
>>
>> Approach from behind with at least 10 mph speed differential;
>>
>> Maintain that approach speed until within about ten feet of the car in
>> front;
>>
>> Begin flashing lights repeatedly, even though the car in front is
>> passing a truck at or slightly above the speed limit, or even though
>> the car in front is prevented from completing passing by yet another
>> car.

>
> I get it now.... Frank and the rest of them don't even notice there is
> someone behind them until that guy has been blocked for minutes and has a
> reached a significant frustration level and/or has escalated his attempts
> to wake them from their mindless stupor.
>
> If you actually saw them 'maintain speed until 10 feet off your bumper',
> that's behavior consistant with someone sliding in front of them going
> much slower. There is an expectation when you move in front of them, to
> accelerate. That's why he didn't brake, he was expecting you to
> accelerate. But you didn't. MFFY.
>

No, some people do the same maneuver when one is maintaining a steady
speed in the right lane. They are attempting to scare people by closing
so quickly because they are bullies.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
Z

Zoot Katz

Guest
On Mon, 03 Mar 2008 20:18:36 -0600, Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Brent P. wrote:
>> [...]
>> I realize you [Frank Krygowski] hate the automobile and see it as a 'death machine'.[...]

>
>I believe Brent P. has Frank Krygowski confused with Zoot Katz.


Perhaps, but "murder wagon" sounds more like me.

I usually call them "scuds" because they have about the same range,
payload, lethality and lack of effective guidance systems as Scuds.
It's insulting to cars because cars and their drivers have caused
more damage and death than all the Scuds ever fired on civilian
populations. Both Scuds and cars are made to be disposable.

I sometimes call them "coffins" because they rob life from those
habituated slaves who crawl into them everyday, even when it's not
raining and the trip is within mortar range. Their overwhelming
presence and infrastructure demands robs life from the city streets
they infest.

That's why I mostly think of them of as a "carapace" for their
otherwise helpless drivers. Kinda like an armoured wheelchair or the
exoskeleton of an insect.

Many drivers wish to project their self-worth through the car they
drive. I've no problem with that. It helps me regard them as
something less than human. They're just plain "squishy turds in a
can" when considering them collectively and caged.
--
zk
 
On Mar 3, 9:56 pm, Nate Nagel <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Sherman wrote:
> > Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nate Nagel wrote:

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>

>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>

>
> >>>>>

>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>

>
> >>>
> >>>

>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>

>
> >
> >
> >

>
>


Geez, guys! It's OK to trim the posts, you know!

Bill Sornson isn't even reading this, so it won't confuse anyone!

- Frank Krygowski
 
B

Brent P

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Stephen Harding wrote:
> Ed Pirrero wrote:


>> You expect everyone else to change *their* speed for you, but find it
>> exceedingly rude for them to want you to change your speed for them.
>>
>> The inherent contradiction in your position *should* make your head
>> explode.
>>
>> LOL. You MFFYs are the dumbest folks on the planet.

>
> *I'M DOING THE DAMN SPEED LIMIT OR ABOVE BRENT!!*


1) You are responding to Ed.

2) You're using the speed limit as a tool, an excuse for your
passive-aggressive driving.

> I'm not asking the person to do 50! I'm only asking for the
> period of time it take me to complete my pass that the car
> back off on his desired speed.


MFFY.

Some how I get through life without asking that of others. Even when I
refuse to exceed the posted limit, I need not ask others to slow from
their chosen speed while I pass someone.... (the fact there practically
isn't anyone around here to pass at the posted speed limit on a limited
access highway probably helps)
 
B

Brent P

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Nate Nagel wrote:

> Not at all. We're just sick of being stuck in the passing lane behind
> some old guy in a Buick doing 64 "passing" some other old guy in a Buick
> doing 63.9999998.


Speaking of seniors in buicks.. just earlier tonight I was going along at
35 in a 35 and this old woman in buick passes me with a good 10-15mph
differential. But I'm the dangerous speed demon ;)
 
S

Stephen Harding

Guest
Brent P wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>
>>if there is a long line of traffic to my right lane, I am required
>>to accelerate to 90 mph so the person behind me will not be in an
>>over-taking situation?
>>
>>Will the cop that stops me understand that?
>>
>>I think there is more to the law in these circumstances than you
>>are implying. I'll have to ask my state troop brother-in-law what
>>the legal situation is here in MA.

>
>
> Why is your +2mph pass so damn important anyway?


It's not "important". It's just "my speed". Perhaps 67-72mph on the
Mass Pike. Sometimes 62-65mph in the right lane letting *everyone*
pass by.

> I find it interesting that drivers such as yourself are all about slow is
> safe and calling other drivers impaitent, etc... so it puzzles me as to
> why it's so damn important to go 2mph faster than you were going before
> you caught up to someone in the right lane?


"Slow" is a relative term. I've already presented *lots* of studies
that link higher speed with increased accident rates. It's real enough
to me.

But I drive a mixed agenda. I drive 138 miles each way most weekends
during the summer in my 16 mpg Dodge half ton, V-8, 4WD pickup truck
mostly on I-90, I-195 and Rt 146 (RI/MA). These are all divided
highways. I try to save a little gas, which I can do at under 65 mph,
but I also want to get to where I'm going or home again. Sometimes I
might drive close to 75mph and just accept the 15mpg penalty.

I drive with cruise control and prefer to avoid tapping it on and off.
I don't care if someone passes me (it seems some people do). I don't
attempt to regulate other's speed. They can drive themselves into a
tree if they want (hopefully not another car).

Nothing special at all.

> Just wait for a big enough gap to make your pass, if one never happens,
> what's the big deal for paitent adult driver who believes slower speeds
> are safer and morally superior to faster ones? It's only 2mph.


I'm patient but within reason. I don't want to sit behind a semi doing
45 mph up a hill (flashers engaged) if I can pass him. That doesn't
mean cutting anyone off, but it might mean someone coming up at high
rate of speed may end up having to wait a bit.

The active, legal speed limit is the arbiter of speed to my mind. As
long as I'm doing the speed limit, no one has a right to complain I'm
going too slow. If I'm doing 55 in the left lane, that's another
issue.


SMH
 
B

Brent P

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
> Brent P wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>> Brent P? wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know where trucks actually go 55mph, but anyway... I just don't
>>>>>> have anyone come out of nowhere up on to my bumper when I move out to
>>>>>> pass. Sometimes it happens when I am cruising over to the right, but
>>>>>> generally those folks are doing over 100mph.
>>>>
>>>>> Well, the large trucks often do not move faster than that due to traffic.
>>>> Only when no one else is IME.

>>
>>> Well, in urban traffic the trucks generally move more slowly than the
>>> cars, due to slow acceleration.

>>
>> More slowly yes, 55mph or slower... when everyone else is. Then again I
>> live in an area where even the semis occasionally use the shoulder as a
>> passing lane.
>>
>>>>> Well, they are ignorant or badly behaved for driving slower than traffic
>>>>> in the middle and/or left lanes, but that does not excuse passing them
>>>>> on the right.
>>>> Excuse? Why does it have to be excused? It's not illegal and no way am I
>>>> going to give some LLB control freak the power to sit in the left lane
>>>> and force everyone else to go his chosen speed.

>>
>>> Illegal and wrong are two different things. Passing on the right is poor
>>> behavior, and if the legislature had some sense in the matter, it would
>>> be a moving violation (as would being a "left lane bandit"). Neither
>>> behavior would be tolerated in a civilized country.

>>
>> If the legislature cared about proper traffic flow it would have the keep
>> right except to pass law even stronger and ENFORCED at least as much as
>> 'speeding'. Instead what you are telling me, is that when I am driving
>> along at my chosen speed in the right most lane, that I should brake and
>> slow down because I catch up to some asshat driving slower in one of the
>> lanes to my left? That is rather assinine and would only be endorced by
>> someone trying to make a usenet score or a complete passing lane blocking
>> control freak asshole. Which one are you?
>>

> On a three lane road, the left lane is still available to pass.


Not around here and not in the example I gave earlier. there is someone
else camping in the left lane. The typical way an expressway clogs in
chicago area is a lot of vehicles stacked up in the left and middle lane
and just a couple in the right lane. I was one of those couple in the
general area when an asshat from the middle lane decided he couldn't have
someone get by.

>> Do you really want to empower someone going much slower than you want to
>> go blocking the whole road up legally by just choosing the left lane?


> No, I leave enough of a gap for people to get through on a two lane
> road, or pass on the left on a three lane. Two wrongs do not make a right.


So the middle lane dufus ducklings an LLB and you refuse to pass the
middle lane dufus and then another middle lane dufus comes a long and
seals the small gap you are telling me you leave for people to cut in
front of you and pass on the right... I do find that hard to believe
since you are against passing on the right and it's not normal to invite
drivers (especially ones a person considers poorly skilled) to cut over
in front of them.


>>>>> Passing on the right again?
>>>> Perfectly legal under IL law. Again why do you want to empower LLBs? Are
>>>> you one?

>>
>>> No, I spend as little time in the left lane as possible. But I will not
>>> pass on the right, even if some jerk is following me at a distance of 5
>>> feet.

>>
>> So when you are cruising along minding your own buisness and come across
>> some asshat LLBing, blocking the left lane, or any lane to your left, you
>> just brake or otherwise slow down so you won't pass him? Holy ****... do
>> you know what sort of chaos you are part of the cause of behind you?


> If people behind me are not following too closely, they will not have a
> problem. I slow done well in advance, so I do not have to brake. It is
> not my fault some moron is blocking traffic.


Nice... you use someone else as your excuse to bottle up traffic... why
were you driving faster than anyone to your left in the first place? to
catch up to some LLB so you could seal up the road?

Anyway it's not the initial braking that causes the chaos, it's the clump
that forms and gets real tight and people jockeying around trying to find
a way through the mess.

>> You're enabling the left lane blocker to create a moving road block.
>> Vehicles clumping up behind you.... even people going no faster than you
>> are getting caught in the clump. (remember, you slowed down not to pass
>> the LLB) No wonder you get flashed in the right lane. You're a total
>> asshole to people behind you. Someone who was happy to stay behind you
>> going the same speed you were going will get ****** off when you find
>> someone in the left lane to match speeds with and block up the road. He's
>> going to see that move as something done on purpose and totally assholish.


> Why, if they do not care about passing on the right, they can go around
> me to the left and pass the offending driver on the right if they so
> desire.


So you set a filter... guess what... someone is going to come up in the
middle lane and decide not to pass by moving right. Maybe the driver's an
idiot who fixates on the tail lamps in front of him... maybe he believes
like you. In either case the hole you left gets plugged. So what few
people could get through now can't.

> I have seen way too many people merge right without looking to
> risk passing on the right, and there is no way I would ever pass a truck
> or bus in their driver's blind spot on the right.


You wouldn't get anywhere around chicago driving like that unless you
decided to move so slowly that you never caught up to ANYONE.
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Nate Nagel wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>> Stephen Harding wrote:
>>
>>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>>
>>>> You expect everyone else to change *their* speed for you, but find it
>>>> exceedingly rude for them to want you to change your speed for them.
>>>>
>>>> The inherent contradiction in your position *should* make your head
>>>> explode.
>>>>
>>>> LOL. You MFFYs are the dumbest folks on the planet.
>>>
>>>
>>> *I'M DOING THE DAMN SPEED LIMIT OR ABOVE BRENT!!*

>>
>>
>> Sorry. All you characters are beginning to merge into one
>> driver madly flashing their headlights, doing 90 mph and
>> thinking they don't really need to abide by speed limits
>> or traffic stops.
>>
>> I guess it's an instance of "Ed" rather than "Brent".

>
> Not at all. We're just sick of being stuck in the passing lane behind
> some old guy in a Buick doing 64 "passing" some other old guy in a Buick
> doing 63.9999998.
>
> The VAST majority of LLBs aren't even passing anyone, they're either
> just camping out in the left lane for no apparent reason, or even worse,
> pacing the car next to them not either in front of or far enough behind
> to slip through without some really squidly driving.
>
> That said, I can understand your frustration, but put yourself in the
> seat of the guy behind you. He's *expecting* you to do actively hold
> him up, because you're driving slow (relatively) in the passing lane and
> that's the behavior he's come to expect from other motorists. If you
> pass promtply and move over quickly, he'll be pleasantly surprised and
> might even acknowledge your courtesy with a wave as he passes. If you
> actively block him, you're just another of the rude and/or clueless
> masses that make everyday driving unpleasant.
>

Do you believe that a 10 to 15 mph speed differential is
"micro-passing"? I have had people close up and turn on their high beams
when I was passing in that speed differential range.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
B

Brent P

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Tom Sherman wrote:

>> Passing on the right 'equally bad'? Drive much in the USA?


> Yes, and what other industrialized country has as badly trained drivers
> as the US?


The point is, if you don't pass on the right you aren't going to get very
far at anything close to average interstate speeds.

>>> Should I drive off onto the left-hand shoulder or into the median
>>> to let the person behind by, so he/she can tailgate the slow person in
>>> the left lane?


>> You can start by trying to wake up the asshole in front of you with your
>> car's flash-to-pass feature.


> That usually gets no reaction - they probably think you are doing the
> "cop ahead" signal.


So you don't even try....

>> Considering that you apparently don't find LLBing assholish


> Apparently Brent P comprehends incorrectly.


Let's see, you enable LLB's, you refuse to do anything to wake them up,
and you're willing to match their speed until they exit, you exit or the
heat death of the universe (as nate would say).

>> and aren't
>> willing to pass said LLBs on the right, I can only conclude you are a
>> passive aggressive asshole who wishes to bottle up the road and control
>> everyone else's speed. The LLB and a little twisted logic about the
>> horrors of 'passing on the right' and in your own mind you are able to
>> accomplish the goal of controling the speed of the road and not see
>> yourself as the asshole.


> Can I have some of whatever you are smoking?


You're the one posting nonsense. If you're so willing to stay behind
asshole drivers blocking the passing lane you must be getting something
out of it. Why bother driving fast enough to catch up to anyone at all if
you're not going to pass? In the chicago area I encounter the first LLB
or middle lane camper usually as I come down the ramp.... I couldn't even
merge on to the expressway if I couldn't 'pass on the right'.
 
S

Stephen Harding

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mar 3, 4:18 pm, Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>Would you please provide me a cite where not giving way to someone
>>flashing their headlights at you is illegal. I don't think that is
>>the case in MA.

>
> Brent already gave you an example of signal to pass, although in that
> instance the signal mentioned is an audible signal.
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.autos.driving/msg/261e7e002dd1e61c
> for reference. That was in this thread. There are other references
> of states laws requiring drivers to yield to other vehicles that have
> indicated intent to pass. They vary on audible (horn) or visual
> (flash-to-pass). I consider a flash more polite than a horn.


Yes I saw the example after posting. I still am interested in
context.

I also would consider a light flash more polite than a horn.

But I also believe it's just unnecessary. A light flash should
only be necessary when a single car is blocking a passing lane
by not making progress against a vehicle being passed, or if
the vehicle is all by itself in the left lane.

Any other condition such as a line of cars passing and/or a line
of vehicles being passed (where no easy return to right lane is
possible without cutting someone off) should be obvious enough
to a motorist that flashing of lights is pointless.

>>Here in MA, people park themselves in the passing lane. People go
>>quite fast as well. There may never be time to provide someone
>>who is well above the speed limit enough time. Most of the time
>>(on busy highways like the Mass Pike), I'm not the only one blocking
>>the passing lane for the clod. There's a line of cars ahead of me
>>that's he's going to have to flash his way through. All of them
>>actually passing other cars.

>
> I was born and raised in MA. I still work there. You're suggesting
> all the cars in the left lane are passing other cars? IME, especially
> in MA, the left lane is rarely the fastest lane.


Do you drive the Mass Pike? If so, where abouts? Driving I-90 out
in the Berkshires isn't the same as driving the Pike in Worcester
or Framingham. You surely know that.

I agree that at times, the left lane indeed is not moving as fast
as other lanes, but mostly that is not the case.

On the Pike, they're parking themselves in the left lane and moving
as fast as they can appears to be de rigeur.

But then, MA drivers as a group are not exactly noted for good driving
technique.


SMH
 
N

Nate Nagel

Guest
Tom Sherman wrote:
> Nate Nagel wrote:
>
>> Stephen Harding wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen Harding wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ed Pirrero wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You expect everyone else to change *their* speed for you, but find it
>>>>> exceedingly rude for them to want you to change your speed for them.
>>>>>
>>>>> The inherent contradiction in your position *should* make your head
>>>>> explode.
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL. You MFFYs are the dumbest folks on the planet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *I'M DOING THE DAMN SPEED LIMIT OR ABOVE BRENT!!*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry. All you characters are beginning to merge into one
>>> driver madly flashing their headlights, doing 90 mph and
>>> thinking they don't really need to abide by speed limits
>>> or traffic stops.
>>>
>>> I guess it's an instance of "Ed" rather than "Brent".

>>
>>
>> Not at all. We're just sick of being stuck in the passing lane behind
>> some old guy in a Buick doing 64 "passing" some other old guy in a
>> Buick doing 63.9999998.
>>
>> The VAST majority of LLBs aren't even passing anyone, they're either
>> just camping out in the left lane for no apparent reason, or even
>> worse, pacing the car next to them not either in front of or far
>> enough behind to slip through without some really squidly driving.
>>
>> That said, I can understand your frustration, but put yourself in the
>> seat of the guy behind you. He's *expecting* you to do actively hold
>> him up, because you're driving slow (relatively) in the passing lane
>> and that's the behavior he's come to expect from other motorists. If
>> you pass promtply and move over quickly, he'll be pleasantly surprised
>> and might even acknowledge your courtesy with a wave as he passes. If
>> you actively block him, you're just another of the rude and/or
>> clueless masses that make everyday driving unpleasant.
>>

> Do you believe that a 10 to 15 mph speed differential is
> "micro-passing"? I have had people close up and turn on their high beams
> when I was passing in that speed differential range.
>


I can honestly say that I've never had that happen to me, and like I
said, the metro DC area is the home of the worst drivers I've ever had
the misfortune of encountering. I've also lived in Michigan where even
the 70 MPH speed limits are merely a suggestion. (although lane
discipline in MI is refreshingly good, in comparison) So I have to ask,
are you sure you're really going 10 MPH faster? This would imply that
you'd be passing a truck with a 53 foot trailer - say total length 70
feet? at a guess? - in roughly 5 seconds or so, which isn't
unreasonable IMO. If so, where the heck are you?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
 

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