Schiavo debate: Ploy for evangelical vote in 06'?



davidmc said:
I wouldn't compare Bush to ****** because ****** was intelligent & elected by the popular vote :D He also had the decency to take himself out. As far as abortion is concerned, I beleive the health of the mother comes first. What, pray tell, would you recommend say if a 14yr old indigent, single, mother wanted to abort. :confused: Because if you say have the child then you are endorsing a larger federal gov't w/ the associated tax revenue to be a father, so to speak, for the child. Why do I get the impression you would not be for tax increases :rolleyes: Lastly, a little good debate among freinds is good for raising solutions to problems so our little discussion here, brought about by the nazi's errr...I mean Republicans is a good thing. As long as they don't accidentally ruin the meaning/implications of marriage, although I could really care less especially since the Repubs want to tamper w/ the Constitution to disenfranchise tax paying & law abiding citizens (gay's). Why do the Republicans always want to tamper w/ the Constitution :confused:
Do you just regurgitate what they tell you word for word? I bet you even pick your friends based on their political leanings. Just remember you're the one that favors mercy killings. What good little Nazi you are.
 
davidmc said:
We're not talking about the parents here, we're talking about Terry. Her husband has been going to see her for 15 f**king years smart guy. You think thats "no big deal" huh :confused:
Hey pooch, he visited her only to ensure that NO ONE WAS TRYING TO GIVE HER THERAPY, FEED HER ICE CHIPS OR OTHERWISE HELP HER. NOW HE HAS POLICE OFFICERS THERE TO FRISK HER PARENTS TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN'T SLIP AN ICE CHIP TO THEIR POOR LITTLE GIRL who is now dieing of thirst...Funny how you libs won't kill a tree for oil but you don't mind killing this woman...
 
zapper said:
Fact: Mike denied Terry any kind of rehabilitation to help her situation.
Fact: He only stated that Terry mentioned that she did not want to be kept alive (7yrs) after the fact…when a law passed that “hearsay” could be used to pull the plug.
Fact: There are broken bones that have not been accounted for.
Fact: We do not know if she feels pain or not or what she is thinking
Fact: It is not pleasurable to die from dehydration contrary to some articles that are out there saying how “euphoric” the experience is...

Hey Zap; long time. Hammesfar, despite his impressive credentials (a lot of folk get nominated for Nobel, though, so don't get too excited), is in the extreme minority here--in fact, it might be wise to share some more information on those quotes, because there could be a context to them that we don't understand. I'd like to know precisely how relevant his statements are. When did he make them? What records and other evidence did he have at his disposal at the time, and how current was it? How current is that information now?

Fact: Terri has no cerebral cortex. Her cortex was found to have died as a result of the injury, and in the years since, has physically vanished.

He may have succesfully treated patients of her type of stroke previously, but the type of malady she suffered doesn't necessarily indicate the ultimate injury (ie, the stroke can result in different degrees of physical damage). So again, I'm curious: Has he "rehabilitated" patients for whom the cerebral cortex has been destroyed? When he describes patients of this variety of stroke achieving "independence," is he accurately refering to individuals who have sustained this degree of loss? I suspect his definition of "rehabilitation" is a sliding scale, and based on my understanding of the brain (I'm no neurologist), would expect someone in Terri's case to "recover" in a cosmetic, and not psychological sense.

Current commentary by the neurological community at large is extremely consistent on the status of Terri's brain function, even if they debate how to proceed: she's psychologically the equivalent of an earthworm, or starfish. She's possesing of a brain stem only, a primordial knob of neural tissue which governs involuntary responses to stimuli and facilitates basic involuntary body function. With no cerebral cortex, she's currently and will never again be capable of self-awareness, any form of cognition, fear, pleasure, pain or comfort. Without a cerebral cortex (contrary to facts 3 and 4 in your list), higher organisms aren't capable of thought as we describe it.

This isn't to be confused with the experiences of traditionally catatonic, comatose, senile or otherwise ill or brain-damaged patients, for whom sentience and thought patterns are still in existence (and clearly indicated by brain scans, which show activity--activity in tissues Terri's not even possesing).

Terri's body is a husk onto which well-meaning folk, in very good faith and with the most humane intentions, have projected a sense of humanity.
 
zapper said:
Hey pooch, he visited her only to ensure that NO ONE WAS TRYING TO GIVE HER THERAPY, FEED HER ICE CHIPS OR OTHERWISE HELP HER. NOW HE HAS POLICE OFFICERS THERE TO FRISK HER PARENTS TO MAKE SURE THEY CAN'T SLIP AN ICE CHIP TO THEIR POOR LITTLE GIRL who is now dieing of thirst...Funny how you libs won't kill a tree for oil but you don't mind killing this woman...

If I'm not mistaken, haven't the doctors already said that she is "brain dead?" I don't know all the facts of her state, but I do know that the only thing keeping her going for 15+ years was a feeding tube. If the tube wasn't inserted into her, her body wouldn't have been able to sustain life. She would have died a long time ago. To put it in "redneck" terms (I is one), I just think it's sick to keep "the car idling with no driver in it."
 
Colorado Ryder said:
You have more than enough posts that compare Bush to ******. When did ****** ever fly back to Berlin to save a incapacitated person from being murdered? Oh thats right you believe incapacitated people should be, oh what was that term you used, oh yes "mercy killing". Wouldn't want those people to become a drain on the health care system. Where have we heard that philosophy before......oh thats right....the Nazi party. Congratulations Mr. DavidMC, you have successfully equated yourself to the Nazis. Well done my man. Well done.
"Brain dead" DOES NOT EQUATE to incapacitated. Someone w/ a twisted ankle is incapacitated :rolleyes: . Come on, you said you were a smart guy :eek: Another thing Adolf did was he didn't go overboard w/ rewarding the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Remember he spear-headed the building of the Autobahn which was for everyone.
 
snyper0311 said:
If I'm not mistaken, haven't the doctors already said that she is "brain dead?" I don't know all the facts of her state, but I do know that the only thing keeping her going for 15+ years was a feeding tube. If the tube wasn't inserted into her, her body wouldn't have been able to sustain life. She would have died a long time ago. To put it in "redneck" terms (I is one), I just think it's sick to keep "the car idling with no driver in it."
EXACTLY !!! I live on the edge of a highly red state & understand where you're coming from. No amount of care or concern is going to humanize a person who has sufferred a stroke & the associated brain damage that she has.
 
davidmc said:
"Brain dead" DOES NOT EQUATE to incapacitated. Someone w/ a twisted ankle is incapacitated :rolleyes: . Come on, you said you were a smart guy :eek: Another thing Adolf did was he didn't go overboard w/ rewarding the wealthy at the expense of everyone else. Remember he spear-headed the building of the Autobahn which was for everyone.
Are really going to attempt to defend ******? Well done! Remember he killed all those people. Oops! Those were mercy killings.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Are really going to attempt to defend ******? Well done! Remember he killed all those people. Oops! Those were mercy killings.
No, just stating that he had more redeeming qualities than Bush :D
 
"The base of her brain is intact, and it's the base of the brain that controls basic bodily functions," said Quill, the author of a commentary on the Schiavo case published in the April 21 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine but released early this week.

However, early brain scans showed that Schiavo's cerebral cortex -- the part of her brain housing higher cognition -- probably ceased to function since soon after she suffered the cardiac arrest that brought her to hospital in 1990. Experts also agree that at this point, Schiavo has no hope of recovery.

According to Quill and other specialists, the cerebral cortex is home to all of those things that give us our essential humanity -- our personality, ability to interact and communicate, our awareness, memories. In that sense, he said, Terri Schiavo has been "gone" since 1990, even though her body, face and eyes continue to move.
"The question for any neurologist coming to see her is, 'Do these movements connect to anything around her?'" Quill said. "And the consensus is, from many of the neurologists who have seen her, is that it does not connect -- even though family may disagree with that."
http://articles.health.msn.com/id/100101306?GT1=6305
 
davidmc said:
"The base of her brain is intact, and it's the base of the brain that controls basic bodily functions," said Quill, the author of a commentary on the Schiavo case published in the April 21 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine but released early this week.

However, early brain scans showed that Schiavo's cerebral cortex -- the part of her brain housing higher cognition -- probably ceased to function since soon after she suffered the cardiac arrest that brought her to hospital in 1990. Experts also agree that at this point, Schiavo has no hope of recovery.

According to Quill and other specialists, the cerebral cortex is home to all of those things that give us our essential humanity -- our personality, ability to interact and communicate, our awareness, memories. In that sense, he said, Terri Schiavo has been "gone" since 1990, even though her body, face and eyes continue to move.
"The question for any neurologist coming to see her is, 'Do these movements connect to anything around her?'" Quill said. "And the consensus is, from many of the neurologists who have seen her, is that it does not connect -- even though family may disagree with that."
http://articles.health.msn.com/id/100101306?GT1=6305
Yep. ******..err..davidmc..would kill her.
 
zapper said:
I watched my father in-law die from a brain tumor and even though he was in a coma for the last week of his life, we provided food and water...
ah. no wonder you're so screwed up.
 
Colorado Ryder said:
Are really going to attempt to defend ******? Well done! Remember he killed all those people. Oops! Those were mercy killings.
****** killed most of my family, asshole. but he also had some of the most admirable qualities in the world... he was a genius orator.
 
It was a very difficult case and there were pros and cons on both sides of the issue.

That lady's circumstances were terrible and the decision to remove the feeding tube could not have been easy.

It's hard to know what was the correct decision.

I presume that the decisions of the earlier court hearings tested medical prognosis to the nth degree in order to establish that there would have been no recovery in this case.
 
limerickman said:
It was a very difficult case and there were pros and cons on both sides of the issue.

That lady's circumstances were terrible and the decision to remove the feeding tube could not have been easy.

It's hard to know what was the correct decision.

I presume that the decisions of the earlier court hearings tested medical prognosis to the nth degree in order to establish that there would have been no recovery in this case.
One only has to look at the 14th Amendment Article III to see where this case was flawed. The problem is that today's lawyers no longer really learn "constitutional Law" thus today's judges get away with murder. If it was deemed that this woman had to be put to death then at least giver her a lethal injection and get it over rather that let her and her family suffer watching this spectacle...
 
zapper said:
One only has to look at the 14th Amendment Article III to see where this case was flawed. The problem is that today's lawyers no longer really learn "constitutional Law" thus today's judges get away with murder. If it was deemed that this woman had to be put to death then at least giver her a lethal injection and get it over rather that let her and her family suffer watching this spectacle...

I defer to your knowledge of your own law.

However I would have assumed that the issue - the issue being this unfortunate lady's chances of recovering - were thrashed out in their entirety in your country's judicial system.
And the courts found, after hearing medical opinion from both sides, that this lady wouldn't have recovered from her unforunate predicament.

Ethically, I have very grave concerns with anyone taking away a feeding tube
from a person in that lady's condition.
But if the courts explored this issue and found that there was no chance of recovery, I suppose the decision to stop life support was legally sound.

Ethics and legality are two separate issues though.
 

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