Schumacher positive



whiteboytrash

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jonjungel said:
Gerolsteiner is still active and racing until the end of the year. So fired by Gerolsteiner.



How cool ! Cycling was getting boring with all this Lance stuff and no positives ! Now lets work out the drug network and where he got the gear......... bloody Germans... you just can't trust them...... looks like Lance will be the saviour of cycling again !
 

whiteboytrash

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Bro Deal said:
The rumors are that three or four CSC members are being tested.

Today the first three results were supposed to be known. So far they are running two positives out of three. That is a great hit rate. Two or three positives on CSC will a huge scandal.


If the CSC boys go down then its makes a mockery of internal dope testing programs..... they are a sham.....Dammergard or what ever his farking name is better retire......... ..... Johan take note......
 

Powerful Pete

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As others have said, I am waiting for them to nail Voigt and Cancellara. Skipping the worlds and riding with climbers in the Tour. Almost looks like Hincapie winning mountain stages at the TdF...
 

Leafer

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drm said:
No question, but the Schleck positive leads me to believe that perhaps Blood doping (rather than CERA) is CSC's method of choice. Meaning that CSC probably wouldn't have many positives.

I'm no expert, please correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, first, Schleck isn't positive for anything, yet at least. But even if they were blood doping, theoretically that would've shown up on Damsgaard's radar as hemo levels (among other factors) fluctuate - after all, blood doping basically does the same thing as EPO, boosting the red blood cell count. And Damsgaard insists that there was nothing aberrant about Schleck's blood. So either Schleck is in fact clean, or the Damsgaard system is a massive failure. I'm not sure which I believe just yet, but clearly if a couple of CSC riders come up positive for CERA, then it's obviously the latter.
 

adamastor

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Now let me put in my "humble opinion" :D

CSC: Frank Schleck: has probably doped before Fuentes scandal, but probably clean since. Has definitely transferred 7,000 euros back in 2006, maybe it's even his blood you'll find in bag nr 25 (amigo di birillo). But I do not believe he can be that stupid to be caught on CERA under "Bjarne 2008". At CSC would rather see Cancellara and Arvesen, but nobody else. If Cancellara used CERA, how the hell could he get through Damsgaard system????

Voigt? Hmmm, don't think so. Wasn't that much "out of his scope" during this TDF.

Kirchen: I really do not believe it, as he is one of those few really standing out against doping (at least in his interviews). If he is among the guilty ones, than he's a true cheat and a f...ing liar. Don't want to hear from him anymore. No excuse, especially not at Columbia.
If Kirchen is clean (or not caught with Cera), it's the second time he comes second in a stage to a "doped" rider ( Vinokourov in 2007 - Schumacher in 2008). In other words, he has probably won 2 stages without ever having won one, hahaha.

I'm still dubious on Kohl. Is he in it? Haven't heard any rumours whatsoever about him. Well, let's see.

German TV - the Schumacher thing might be the last straw (with Lance return). No Tour de France broadcast by ARD next year?
 

MintID

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Leafer said:
Well, first, Schleck isn't positive for anything, yet at least. But even if they were blood doping, theoretically that would've shown up on Damsgaard's radar as hemo levels (among other factors) fluctuate - after all, blood doping basically does the same thing as EPO, boosting the red blood cell count. And Damsgaard insists that there was nothing aberrant about Schleck's blood. So either Schleck is in fact clean, or the Damsgaard system is a massive failure. I'm not sure which I believe just yet, but clearly if a couple of CSC riders come up positive for CERA, then it's obviously the latter.
I agree, Damsgaard should be able to detect CERA or any form of EPO.
correct me if i'm wrong, but any EPO abuse should show an abnormal rectics count.
 

adamastor

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Re Kohl - just read from German Eurosport, that he refused to give a comment on Schumacher being positive. Kohl was Schumacher's room mate during last TDF, he said "he wouldn't give his opinion before Schumacher has given official answer to accusations." Great attitude, man (...not)
 

TheDarkLord

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whiteboytrash said:
If the CSC boys go down then its makes a mockery of internal dope testing programs..... they are a sham.....Dammergard or what ever his farking name is better retire......... ..... Johan take note......
+1. But then, it is not really a surprise. If team dirty (Astana) is using Daamsgard, then it has to be a sham.
 

Leafer

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adamastor said:
Now let me put in my "humble opinion" :D

CSC: Frank Schleck: has probably doped before Fuentes scandal, but probably clean since.
But if I'm reading this right, Damsgaard has had a look at Franck's blood values from that period, ie when he made the transfer to Fuentes, and says that there's nothing to indicate that Franck was doping. http://www.riis-cycling.com/ny_news.asp?n_id=2147

"His blood values from then and now show no indication of any tampering, manipulation or anything that could suggest the use of illegal substances or methods. This has been confirmed by Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, Bispebjerg University Hospital who has analyzed the values."
On the other hand, I don't believe for a second that Franck just decided one day to donate 7000 euros to Fuentes.

One possibility that would solve both those problems: maybe the 7000 was a backpayment for previous "services", ie he wasn't doping when he made the payment, but was just paying off what was still owed to Fuentes for doping products that he previously used. That would explain why Franck was paying Fuentes but why Damsgaard didn't find any changes in his blood parameters.
 

adamastor

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Leafer said:
But if I'm reading this right, Damsgaard has had a look at Franck's blood values from that period, ie when he made the transfer to Fuentes, and says that there's nothing to indicate that Franck was doping. http://www.riis-cycling.com/ny_news.asp?n_id=2147


On the other hand, I don't believe for a second that Franck just decided one day to donate 7000 euros to Fuentes.

One possibility that would solve both those problems: maybe the 7000 was a backpayment for previous "services", ie he wasn't doping when he made the payment, but was just paying off what was still owed to Fuentes for doping products that he previously used. That would explain why Franck was paying Fuentes but why Damsgaard didn't find any changes in his blood parameters.
Interesting comments, and I respect all you're saying, but mind you

1) the comments about Damsgaard come directly from Schleck's mouth/Riis press release. I haven't seen any official comments directly by Damsgaard (help anyone?). Of course Schleck can say UCI and Damsgaard didn't find anything illegal, otherwise he would have been suspended already. But then again, his blood values from March 2006 are not trustworthy, as Damsgaard only started working with CSC AFTER summer 2006 ! It's already complicated for French labs to detect EPO with all blood samples taken before and during TDF, so what's the value of 6 to 12 months old blood values GIVEN by a rider to Damsgaard??

2) I do not believe in a back payment to Fuentes. I rather believe it was a first payment prior to full blood doping program. Remember Jaksche explaining, that in 2006 the cost for full year program with Fuentes would cost 30,000 euros, with a first payment done in February of 10,000 euros.
So, and this is just a theory, Schleck has met Fuentes (or spoken to him) in early 2006. Fuentes describes the program, Schleck flies to Gran Canaria to have blood taken and frozen (after Paris-Nice). He transfers 7,000 euros, but never used the blood (it was clearly meant for Tour de France, so no need to use it before then). In this case, blood bag 25 might be his. Timing wise it fits, as Schleck's tactics back then were the Belgian classics, one month break, then Tour de Suisse and Tour de France. Probably second outtake of blood would have come after Tour de Suisse (he came 6th). But by then, the Fuentes scandal was out there, and he never made a move since. It all stayed at the 7,000 euros, no revealed doping.

Again, only a theory. And to me, the way Frank rode this year, I think if he doped it wasn't Cera. Had it been Cera, he would have been up there with Cobo and Piepoli when both Saunier stole the victory. In reality he struggled to catch 3rd place and beat Evans to yellow jersey.
 

Bro Deal

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earth_dweller said:
you know, I now so wish that Astana had been at the Tour, what a shame.
The UCI should test blood from the Giro for CERA.

I wonder if there were blood samples taken during the Dauphine.
 

Anticyclone

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adamastor said:
Again, only a theory. And to me, the way Frank rode this year, I think if he doped it wasn't Cera. Had it been Cera, he would have been up there with Cobo and Piepoli when both Saunier stole the victory. In reality he struggled to catch 3rd place and beat Evans to yellow jersey.
If there is a system in place that flags up suspicious changes in blood parameters then maybe one way to get round it would be to not use as much of a substance as people who werent being checked on? This would mean that your blood markers may still be in your safety zone. Also, if someone suddenly started showing odd readings during the tour then what would damsgaard/riis do? We should have a better idea in a few days time one way or the other.
 

doctorSpoc

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MintID said:
I agree, Damsgaard should be able to detect CERA or any form of EPO.
correct me if i'm wrong, but any EPO abuse should show an abnormal rectics count.

no... not necessarily... CERA is basically EPO with a huge molecule attached to it... this helps keep it in the body longer as it is not able to be passed into the urine and exit the body the as quickly as regular EPO is.. this also make it undetectable in a urine test. or at least that's what everyone thought 'til Ricco tested positive...

basically the riders were punk'd... WADA contacted Roche (the manufacture of CERA) before CERA went on the market, warned them that this drug was for sure going to be abused by athletes and they got them to put a substance that IS passed into the urine in the CERA as a marker, so that they would be able to detect CERA use by proxy by testing for the other substance... but they didn't tell anyone this. they just basically set the trap and waited for people to use CREA and for the trap to be sprung. the first person to be tested for CERA by proxy was Ricco... Damsgaard probably still doesn't have access to this test.

CERA can be detected in the blood but the the blood test for CERA is brand new and because they use the urine test to determine who to do blood tests on people using CERA never get blood tested (or at least didn't)

the beauty if CERA is it last almost a month so you only have to take it once a month or so... it's undetectable (or at least was supposed to be) so there is no reason to stop using it... and i'm thinking that the really good thing would be that since you can take it all the time your blood values are consistent... it would be a way to beat the longitudinal testing of the type that Damsgaard was performing and the UCI has put into place with the "passports" system

so no, if member of CSC were using CERA and started using it before Damsgaard set his baselines their values they likey might have some funny values but they would be consistently so and likely wouldn't trigger a positive finding...
 

11ring

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I dont think CERA has a marker. the makers denied this. What they did do was give WADA the details of the molecule, ie its mass and spectrospopy details, such that WADA could easily detect it even in small quantaties.

To find something you need to know what you are looking for. Hence it is possible to take drugs and not get caught if you are using a modified drug. Apparently the better doping doctors can manufacture slightly modified drugs. Take CERA, it would be possible to make the same sort of drug by using a different "ballast" molecule joined to the EPO, it will then have a different mass and will not spike the CERA mass reading.

Some doctor, i forget who admitted that for a fee he was making such drugs which are practically undetectable.
 

doctorSpoc

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11ring said:
I dont think CERA has a marker. the makers denied this. What they did do was give WADA the details of the molecule, ie its mass and spectrospopy details, such that WADA could easily detect it even in small quantaties.

i stand corrected... i saw the initial reports in the press...
http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/tour-update-no-secret-molecule-in-cera--17695

11ring said:
Some doctor, i forget who admitted that for a fee he was making such drugs which are practically undetectable.

that's the thing... if a guy like armstrong wants to come back... just pay a chemist to move a carbon here, a few hydrogens there and BOOM undetectable... and you can also beat the longitudinal testing.. you can't go to the corner store to buy it anymore but, hey if you can generate millions off of a tour win then it's probably worth it...
 

Malkmus

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LewisBricktop said:
apparently you havent heard; everybody cheats
I took my 10 year old son to a cross race yesterday. He walked the course and then started pointing out to the guy who designed the course that there was a potential for people to take short-cuts in some spots. We told him not to worry because there is no cheating in cycling.
 

Malkmus

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Leafer said:
Well, first, Schleck isn't positive for anything, yet at least. But even if they were blood doping, theoretically that would've shown up on Damsgaard's radar as hemo levels (among other factors) fluctuate - after all, blood doping basically does the same thing as EPO, boosting the red blood cell count. And Damsgaard insists that there was nothing aberrant about Schleck's blood. So either Schleck is in fact clean, or the Damsgaard system is a massive failure. I'm not sure which I believe just yet, but clearly if a couple of CSC riders come up positive for CERA, then it's obviously the latter.
Oh his charts showed the fluctuating values alright. They just explained it with an asterisk. Problem solved.

I posted the chart here last year and was convinced that it showed major problems in the team. Yet, none of the medical people chimed in. I still think that the proof of doping was in Damsgaard's data. His problem is that he loses his job if he finds most of the team to be doping.

Here is the chart:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jun07/jun22news

Guess which rider is Andy Schleck.
 

Malkmus

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Oh yeah. I forgot about the $ on the chart. Soembody stored their blood the get that drop.