Schumacher positive

Discussion in 'Professional Cycling' started by Bro Deal, Oct 6, 2008.

  1. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Messages:
    11,369
    Likes Received:
    975
    He cracked in the Alps when big Jens put the hammer down.
     


  2. poulidor

    poulidor New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    They don't use the same vitamines!:cool:
     
  3. Anticyclone

    Anticyclone New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2008
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which Alpine stage was that? Voigt put the hammer down on the Tourmalet/Hautacam stage dropping Valverde but they are in the Pyrenees.;)

    In the Alps Valverde finished with the main contenders everyday:)

    One possible podium contender surprised me during the tour as he had a miserable tour - a case of hero to zero? Then again there's always someone who disappoints. Time will tell.:)
     
  4. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,130
    Likes Received:
    115
    Good points, EL.

    I'm not surprised at how Kirchen rode at Plumelec and Super Basse.
    Both stages as you say, suit Kichen (based on his performances in races with similar profiles to Plumelec and Super Basse).

    It was his climbing at the TDF which stood out for me on the more mountainous stages.

    But I also recall him clmbing well at Flanders this year.
    of course Flanders isn't the high mountains of the TDF but he was climbing well at the end of a very tough one day race earlier in the season.
     
  5. El Loto

    El Loto New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kirchen didn't race Flanders. He was in the Basque Country. He was able to grind away consistently in the mountains, nothing spectacular, nothing mediocre. I can think of many more riders who'd return a positive before Kirchen.
     
  6. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,130
    Likes Received:
    115
    This migt be of interest.


    The main media station here did a radio feature this morning on the IOC decision to re-test 5,000 samples from the Beijing Games using the CERA dope test.
    David Walsh was asked by one of the radio commentators about his view.
    DW went in to background of how the test was developed and how the positive results were detected at Chatanay Malabry and how several TDF
    riders were found to have doped.

    DW was asked if the IOC retests would uncover a huge amount of doping at the Beijing Olympics - using the new CERA tests.
    DW's view was there might be some doping uncovered but there wouldn't be an avalanche of positives from Beijing resulting from the CERA tests.

    Asked why not, DW replied that the TDF announced that a CERA test had been developed and would be used to test samples taken at the TDF.
    He said "after that worldwide announcement (TDF announcement) of this test, only a moron would have continued to take this type of dope at Beijing".

    DW did go on to say that the French authorities - and especially Chatanay Malabry, had been at the vanguard of the anti-doping war and that the testers were slowly starting to close the gap between the dopers and the testers.
    He said that this was a good outcome.
     
  7. classic1

    classic1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2006
    Messages:
    11,369
    Likes Received:
    975
    Shit you are spot on. WTF was I thinking?:)
     
  8. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,130
    Likes Received:
    115
    Maybe it was the Basque Country that I had in mind.

    Although I could swear it was one of the Classics that I saw Kichen race.

    I take your overall point though about Kirchen.
    In the very high mountains in the TDF, he wasn't destroying the rest of the field.
     
  9. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,605
    Likes Received:
    341

    Why not, if everyone is on a level playing field the best still wins and Armstrong was always good doped or not.
     
  10. poulidor

    poulidor New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2006
    Messages:
    1,464
    Likes Received:
    0
    Where have you seen Lance racing without dope?
    It's like looking for an intelligent blonde or Santa Claus!
     
  11. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,605
    Likes Received:
    341

    It doesn't matter as I believe all the top riders of the last era doped. I don't think he doped better than the rest. I think he doped as did others and he won.
    If all had been clean I believe ,although not certain, that he would still have won.
    All clean riders= The best wins.
    All doped riders= The best still wins.
     
  12. zlatan

    zlatan New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2006
    Messages:
    194
    Likes Received:
    0
    that´s are not true.. some bodys responds better to doping than others..
     
  13. limerickman

    limerickman Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2004
    Messages:
    16,130
    Likes Received:
    115
    I hear what you're saying.


    But it is the futility of doping.

    No sporting achievement can be objectively assessed because, if all riders are doping, then the discussion degenerates in to "well, if rider B had access to the same dope/type of dope/medical sport/another, as rider A, B would beat A".

    So not only does doping corrode the credibility of a sport - even when widespread doping is acknowledged in the sport, the argument changes to the merits of respective doping systems, in order to validate who wins.
     
  14. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,605
    Likes Received:
    341

    Which ones respond better?
     
  15. El Loto

    El Loto New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Messages:
    561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Mauro Gianetti springs to mind.
     
  16. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,605
    Likes Received:
    341

    It is all argumentative as some people respond better in different climates, training,etc. etc. Too many variables to make a generalized statement without data to support it. The point I was trying to make is that if the conditions are assumed to be the same for all then there is no reason Armstrong would not assume he had a chance.
    Basso may enter the picture also. This could turn out to be a real reunion.
     
  17. Flyer

    Flyer Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,961
    Likes Received:
    0
    Jerry is wrong, Jan Ulrich needed drugs.
     
  18. fscyclist

    fscyclist New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2006
    Messages:
    753
    Likes Received:
    0
    Don't necessarily agree. The doping regimen certainly has much to do with success. Armstrong had (supposedly) the best doctor. Conconi and his understudy, Ferrari, were performing experiments and acquiring data in areas other doctors would not explore (perhaps for ethical reasons?) with the exception of the well known East German system. Their knowledge has to be more than others, although I think T-Mob's system likely was as good or at least close. The other's, in my mind, didn't stand a real chance.

    I think it's fair to say that LA used all aspects of racing, to include MD assistance, better than his competitors, but one method of doping is not at all equivalent to other methods.

    I do agree with your other statement that all the recent top riders doped. And in a system such as this, doping in a proper and successful way is really part of the winning equation.
     
  19. Grater

    Grater New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2006
    Messages:
    730
    Likes Received:
    0
    If we are playing bingo, then an italian springs to mind who was shithouse. Cunego. Or as this year a few spanish riders have been busted, what about sam sanchez or zubeldia? disappointing tours by their standards.
     
  20. aquatrain

    aquatrain New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2008
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    1
Loading...
Loading...