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J
Jim Flom
Guest
"Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
The bottom line being:
"In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
news:[email protected]...
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
The bottom line being:
"In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
C
Colin Campbell
Guest
Jim Flom wrote:
> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>
> The bottom line being:
> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
>
>
Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>
> The bottom line being:
> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
>
>
Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
D
Dave
Guest
Feld wrote:
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>
Of course the article fails to mention that FL's high T/E ratio was due
to low E, not high T. Still, the bottom line is that T hasn't been
demonstrated to enhance performance when administered for short periods.
/dave
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>
Of course the article fails to mention that FL's high T/E ratio was due
to low E, not high T. Still, the bottom line is that T hasn't been
demonstrated to enhance performance when administered for short periods.
/dave
D
On Aug 29, 1:46 pm, Feld <[email protected]> wrote:
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275E...
I'm wondering how much "improved mood" it would take to get a mule, or
an exhausted rider who did poorly on immed. previous stage(s) over
that mountain like a racehorse.
I still haven't seen anyone counter Kunich's assertion that the
differing results from A and B ("other half of the A"?) test is proof
positive, if you'll excuse the expression, of contamination at the lab
(or elsewhere) (that's two, two swipes-- one at the lab and one at the
"chain of posession") (without mentioning whiteout or lack of
"blinds"). --D-y
> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275E...
I'm wondering how much "improved mood" it would take to get a mule, or
an exhausted rider who did poorly on immed. previous stage(s) over
that mountain like a racehorse.
I still haven't seen anyone counter Kunich's assertion that the
differing results from A and B ("other half of the A"?) test is proof
positive, if you'll excuse the expression, of contamination at the lab
(or elsewhere) (that's two, two swipes-- one at the lab and one at the
"chain of posession") (without mentioning whiteout or lack of
"blinds"). --D-y
B
Bill C
Guest
On Aug 29, 6:46 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Aug 29, 1:46 pm, Feld <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275E...
>
> I'm wondering how much "improved mood" it would take to get a mule, or
> an exhausted rider who did poorly on immed. previous stage(s) over
> that mountain like a racehorse.
>
> I still haven't seen anyone counter Kunich's assertion that the
> differing results from A and B ("other half of the A"?) test is proof
> positive, if you'll excuse the expression, of contamination at the lab
> (or elsewhere) (that's two, two swipes-- one at the lab and one at the
> "chain of posession") (without mentioning whiteout or lack of
> "blinds"). --D-y
I think TK has been pretty much on the money, even if there is
argument about the details, on this whole subject. Lot's of people
**** on it because it's Tom then say the same thing in another way,
except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Bill C
> On Aug 29, 1:46 pm, Feld <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275E...
>
> I'm wondering how much "improved mood" it would take to get a mule, or
> an exhausted rider who did poorly on immed. previous stage(s) over
> that mountain like a racehorse.
>
> I still haven't seen anyone counter Kunich's assertion that the
> differing results from A and B ("other half of the A"?) test is proof
> positive, if you'll excuse the expression, of contamination at the lab
> (or elsewhere) (that's two, two swipes-- one at the lab and one at the
> "chain of posession") (without mentioning whiteout or lack of
> "blinds"). --D-y
I think TK has been pretty much on the money, even if there is
argument about the details, on this whole subject. Lot's of people
**** on it because it's Tom then say the same thing in another way,
except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Bill C
M
Mike Jacoubowsky
Guest
> The bottom line being:
> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
And this matters... why? Whether testosterone actually provides a benefit or
not is relevant only in terms of whether you choose to make it legal or not.
The "stupidity" defense ("Why would I use something that's illegal and
wouldn't in any way improve my results?") is meaningless because
professional cyclists can't be assumed to be operating with the same frame
of mind. They may believe something gives them an edge regardless of what
"studies" show. If they thought rationally, they'd show more evidence of
concern over long-term consequences of the various means of doping.
Unfortunately, much as I'd like to think Landis, for example, didn't dope
because it wouldn't have helped... well, there's just nothing there but air
in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
(but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
that the samples were tainted.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
And this matters... why? Whether testosterone actually provides a benefit or
not is relevant only in terms of whether you choose to make it legal or not.
The "stupidity" defense ("Why would I use something that's illegal and
wouldn't in any way improve my results?") is meaningless because
professional cyclists can't be assumed to be operating with the same frame
of mind. They may believe something gives them an edge regardless of what
"studies" show. If they thought rationally, they'd show more evidence of
concern over long-term consequences of the various means of doping.
Unfortunately, much as I'd like to think Landis, for example, didn't dope
because it wouldn't have helped... well, there's just nothing there but air
in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
(but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
that the samples were tainted.
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
B
Bill C
Guest
On Aug 29, 7:52 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]>
wrote:
..
>
well, there's just nothing there but air
> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
> that the samples were tainted.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Agreed Mike
It doesn't really natter whether it really works or not. People will
suck up anything they think works.
check out any "fitness" magazine to see how much **** gets sold that
way.
Bill
wrote:
..
>
well, there's just nothing there but air
> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
> that the samples were tainted.
>
> --Mike Jacoubowsky
> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
Agreed Mike
It doesn't really natter whether it really works or not. People will
suck up anything they think works.
check out any "fitness" magazine to see how much **** gets sold that
way.
Bill
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> The bottom line being:
>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
>
> And this matters... why?
Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
effect, improves performance and stamina.
If testosterone isn't being used in a manner in which it CAN cause improved
performance then it isn't a performance enhancing substance.
news:[email protected]...
>> The bottom line being:
>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire race."
>
> And this matters... why?
Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
effect, improves performance and stamina.
If testosterone isn't being used in a manner in which it CAN cause improved
performance then it isn't a performance enhancing substance.
M
Mike Jacoubowsky
Guest
>>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
>>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>>> race."
>>
>> And this matters... why?
>
> Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost
> immediate effect, improves performance and stamina.
Please, Tom, don't give them any ideas. But you accidentally bring up a good
point. Didn't Landis have an unfair advantage over everyone else, by having
a personal team car available to provide an endless supply of water, much of
which was dumped on his head to cool him off? He has often said, and I don't
dispute, that this gave him a significant advantage on that particular
nastily-hot day (I know; I was there).
> If testosterone isn't being used in a manner in which it CAN cause
> improved performance then it isn't a performance enhancing substance.
Athletes themselves bought into the idea that testosterone was a form of
doping. It wasn't some mythical substance that the UCI banned ahead of time.
It was already widely used in the peloton.
Rarely does the UCI or whatever governing body have the upper hand, such
that they ban something before it has a chance to be tried out. The initial
experimentation is going on in the field, not in the labs.
It's a race, both to try and anticipate what athletes might find useful, and
to try and change their (the athletes) mindset by making them believe that
they just might not get away with doping. As it is now, everyone's looking
for the new, not-yet-banned wonder drug that will, at least temporarily,
give them the advantage. That's the culture of doping that we've grown up
with. Until it's banned, after all, is isn't actually cheating. Right?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>>> race."
>>
>> And this matters... why?
>
> Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost
> immediate effect, improves performance and stamina.
Please, Tom, don't give them any ideas. But you accidentally bring up a good
point. Didn't Landis have an unfair advantage over everyone else, by having
a personal team car available to provide an endless supply of water, much of
which was dumped on his head to cool him off? He has often said, and I don't
dispute, that this gave him a significant advantage on that particular
nastily-hot day (I know; I was there).
> If testosterone isn't being used in a manner in which it CAN cause
> improved performance then it isn't a performance enhancing substance.
Athletes themselves bought into the idea that testosterone was a form of
doping. It wasn't some mythical substance that the UCI banned ahead of time.
It was already widely used in the peloton.
Rarely does the UCI or whatever governing body have the upper hand, such
that they ban something before it has a chance to be tried out. The initial
experimentation is going on in the field, not in the labs.
It's a race, both to try and anticipate what athletes might find useful, and
to try and change their (the athletes) mindset by making them believe that
they just might not get away with doping. As it is now, everyone's looking
for the new, not-yet-banned wonder drug that will, at least temporarily,
give them the advantage. That's the culture of doping that we've grown up
with. Until it's banned, after all, is isn't actually cheating. Right?
--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
F
Fred Fredburger
Guest
Colin Campbell wrote:
> Jim Flom wrote:
>> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>>>
>>
>> The bottom line being:
>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery
>> and increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be
>> for maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>> race."
>>
>>
> Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
Not everyone. There is a significant minority that believes drugs to be
magic. They don't necessarily agree on which particular drug is the
magic one. That's pretty much a "flavor of the week" thing.
> Jim Flom wrote:
>> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>>>
>>
>> The bottom line being:
>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery
>> and increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be
>> for maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>> race."
>>
>>
> Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
Not everyone. There is a significant minority that believes drugs to be
magic. They don't necessarily agree on which particular drug is the
magic one. That's pretty much a "flavor of the week" thing.
F
Fred Fredburger
Guest
Bill C wrote:
> ...except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Ah, ****! I've been pretty busy lately and must have missed something.
When did my penis' reputation become common knowledge in RBR?
> ...except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Ah, ****! I've been pretty busy lately and must have missed something.
When did my penis' reputation become common knowledge in RBR?
D
Donald Munro
Guest
Bill C wrote:
>> ...except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> When did my penis' reputation become common knowledge in RBR?
After it suffered a case of mishapen identity with
Tammy Thomas's clitoris ?
>> ...except for those who believe in the divinity of ****.
Fred Fredburger wrote:
> When did my penis' reputation become common knowledge in RBR?
After it suffered a case of mishapen identity with
Tammy Thomas's clitoris ?
W
William R. Mattil
Guest
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, much as I'd like to think Landis, for example, didn't dope
> because it wouldn't have helped... well, there's just nothing there but air
> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
> that the samples were tainted.
>
Hi Mike,
I will confess to being a bit confused by this. He doesn't specifically
need to prove his innocence as it needs to be proven that he is/was
guilty ? And if the test or testing procedure was flawed then the test
isn't valid and if the test isn't valid then voila.
Confused.
Bill
>
> Unfortunately, much as I'd like to think Landis, for example, didn't dope
> because it wouldn't have helped... well, there's just nothing there but air
> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was clean
> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive evidence
> that the samples were tainted.
>
Hi Mike,
I will confess to being a bit confused by this. He doesn't specifically
need to prove his innocence as it needs to be proven that he is/was
guilty ? And if the test or testing procedure was flawed then the test
isn't valid and if the test isn't valid then voila.
Confused.
Bill
B
Booker Bense
Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
>effect, improves performance and stamina.
>
I'm pretty sure they used to in the early days of the tour.
_ Booker C. Bense
Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>
>Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
>effect, improves performance and stamina.
>
I'm pretty sure they used to in the early days of the tour.
_ Booker C. Bense
D
Donald Munro
Guest
Tom Kunich wrote:
> Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
> effect, improves performance and stamina.
LIVEDRUNK will probably promote the idea of banning water and
replacing it with LIVEDRUNK approved beverages.
> Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
> effect, improves performance and stamina.
LIVEDRUNK will probably promote the idea of banning water and
replacing it with LIVEDRUNK approved beverages.
J
Jim Boyer
Guest
"Fred Fredburger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Colin Campbell wrote:
>> Jim Flom wrote:
>>> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>>>
>>> The bottom line being:
>>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
>>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>>> race."
>>>
>>>
>> Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
>
> Not everyone. There is a significant minority that believes drugs to be
> magic. They don't necessarily agree on which particular drug is the magic
> one. That's pretty much a "flavor of the week" thing.
Floyd could have been using T even on the days he tested clean. Perhaps an
error in the masking protocol revealed the T. It's naive to think that
someone used "X" on a certain occasion and got caught. For the folks who are
serious about this there is a lot more to performance enhancing chemistry
than just popping a chemical on a whim.
jb
news:[email protected]...
> Colin Campbell wrote:
>> Jim Flom wrote:
>>> "Feld" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> http://sciam.com/print_version.cfm?articleID=84EC9327-E7F2-99DF-3275ED1BD923D659
>>>
>>> The bottom line being:
>>> "In other words, testosterone would not be used so much for recovery and
>>> increased work output during a single Tour stage as it would be for
>>> maintenance and improved performance over the course of the entire
>>> race."
>>>
>>>
>> Isn't this what everyone has been saying for over a year?
>
> Not everyone. There is a significant minority that believes drugs to be
> magic. They don't necessarily agree on which particular drug is the magic
> one. That's pretty much a "flavor of the week" thing.
Floyd could have been using T even on the days he tested clean. Perhaps an
error in the masking protocol revealed the T. It's naive to think that
someone used "X" on a certain occasion and got caught. For the folks who are
serious about this there is a lot more to performance enhancing chemistry
than just popping a chemical on a whim.
jb
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Athletes themselves bought into the idea that testosterone was a form of
> doping. It wasn't some mythical substance that the UCI banned ahead of
> time. It was already widely used in the peloton.
So if someone is convinced that Jujubies are performance enhancing we should
call anyone using them dopers?
Please Mike, here's the bottom line - if it isn't a dangerous drug used to
enhance performance for which there is proven research then it ISN'T A
PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG and shouldn't be illegal.
I understand that this always leaves the dopers one step ahead of the drug
detectors but that's the cost of a free society.
news:[email protected]...
>
> Athletes themselves bought into the idea that testosterone was a form of
> doping. It wasn't some mythical substance that the UCI banned ahead of
> time. It was already widely used in the peloton.
So if someone is convinced that Jujubies are performance enhancing we should
call anyone using them dopers?
Please Mike, here's the bottom line - if it isn't a dangerous drug used to
enhance performance for which there is proven research then it ISN'T A
PERFORMANCE ENHANCING DRUG and shouldn't be illegal.
I understand that this always leaves the dopers one step ahead of the drug
detectors but that's the cost of a free society.
T
Tom Kunich
Guest
"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 29, 7:52 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> .
>>
> well, there's just nothing there but air
>> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was
>> clean
>> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive
>> evidence
>> that the samples were tainted.
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> Agreed Mike
> It doesn't really natter whether it really works or not. People will
> suck up anything they think works.
> check out any "fitness" magazine to see how much **** gets sold that
> way.
Hammer gel and E-Caps both work very well. They are selling this expensive
stuff like hotcakes and because it's just normal vitamins and minerals and
some other normal supplements they'd have an impossible task testing for it.
news:[email protected]...
> On Aug 29, 7:52 pm, "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> .
>>
> well, there's just nothing there but air
>> in that defense. I still hope there's conclusive evidence that he was
>> clean
>> (but having no idea how that could possibly happen) vs conclusive
>> evidence
>> that the samples were tainted.
>>
>> --Mike Jacoubowsky
>> Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReaction.com
>> Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA
>
> Agreed Mike
> It doesn't really natter whether it really works or not. People will
> suck up anything they think works.
> check out any "fitness" magazine to see how much **** gets sold that
> way.
Hammer gel and E-Caps both work very well. They are selling this expensive
stuff like hotcakes and because it's just normal vitamins and minerals and
some other normal supplements they'd have an impossible task testing for it.
H
Hobbes@spnb&s.com
Guest
On Thu, 30 Aug 2007 17:41:50 +0000 (UTC), [email protected]
(Booker Bense) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
>>effect, improves performance and stamina.
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure they used to in the early days of the tour.
Dihydrogen Monoxide has been a factor in nearly all doping incidents. Ban it
now!
(Booker Bense) wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo. com> wrote:
>>
>>Why don't you then punish people for using water? It has an almost immediate
>>effect, improves performance and stamina.
>>
>
>I'm pretty sure they used to in the early days of the tour.
Dihydrogen Monoxide has been a factor in nearly all doping incidents. Ban it
now!
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