Scooter crash on Glenferrie..

[hippy]

I saw a rather nasty crash involving a motor scooter and a car this
morning. It appears that the scooter was riding south along Glenferrie
and a car turning right into a lane crossed his/her path. I heard the
crunch and when I looked up the scooter rider was on the bonnet and the
scooter was crunched into the left hand side of the car.
I'm not sure if the scooter was lane-splitting to the left of slowed
cars (thereby making him/her almost invisible to the turning car) or if
the driver simply didn't see them coming and turned in their path.
Ambulance called, driver shaken, rider looks mendable.

Anyway, this raised some questions:

I believe I am allowed to ride to the left of cars (lane-splitting) so
long as none of the cars are indicating a left turn (this is the Vic law
I think). Is this correct?

I believe a law was introduced 6-12 months ago that prevented motorbikes
(and I assume motor scooters too) doing the same lane-splitting thing?
Is this correct?

I've had some close calls whilst riding to the left of stopped cars when
I haven't noticed a side-street and a right-turning car would just
'appear' in front of me through a gap in the stopped cars. Happens a lot
on Burke Rd. Camberwell because of all the pissy side-streets and
yuppies in 4wd's that I can't see over..

Anyway, if I can pass cars on their left, who's in the wrong if I
connect with a right-turner going through the gap in traffic?
Also, who would be at fault in the scooter incident above?

hippy
"thinking out loud.."

 

[Marx SS]

Laws gets really confusing after a while.
I lane split, but look out for everyone. Regardless whether they do the right thing or not as I would be on the recieving end of something nasty otherwise.

Motorbikes can;t lane split in Vic, but I don't know of anyone whos been booked (I ride muddaboikes on the road too).
Bicycles are OK to ride alongside on the left of traffic in Vic.

 

[DaveB]

Marx SS wrote:
>
> Motorbikes can;t lane split in Vic, but I don't know of anyone whos
> been booked (I ride muddaboikes on the road too).
> Bicycles are OK to ride alongside on the left of traffic in Vic.
>
>

Disagree here on the motorbike view and have an insurance payout to back
it up. For a motorbike it is legal to overtake on the left of stationary
traffic and on the right of moving traffic even within the same lane. I
seem to recall a thread a while back (where I got it wrong) that showed
bicycles can also overtake on the left of moving traffic (but not left
indicating traffic). Basically what this means for motorbikes is it is
legal to lane split if both lanes are stationary, but if they're moving,
it's only legal if you stay to the right of the left hand lane and stay
in their lane (try proving that one, luckily my situation involved
stationary traffic).

I hate scooter riders, they **** me on the motorbike and on the bicycle.
They can't seem to decide whether they want to ride like one or the
other so do a bit of both and do it badly. And when they lane split and
run out of space, they dive across to teh gutter without bothering to
check for bikes or motorbikes. Okay okay big generalisations but they
**** me more than any other traffic on the road.

DaveB "taking some deep breaths now and calming down"

 

[[email protected]]

>>>>> "hippy" == hippy <[email protected]> writes:

hippy> Anyway, if I can pass cars on their left, who's in the wrong
hippy> if I connect with a right-turner going through the gap in
hippy> traffic? Also, who would be at fault in the scooter incident
hippy> above?

Regarding lane splitting in general:

According to the law, I can pass vehicles on the left legally. The only
time I avail myself of that right is if my subsequent progress does not
mean that another vehicle will have to overly inconvenience itself to
overtake me again thirty seconds later. Generally I claim the lane
square and center to the rear of the car in front of me.

Reasons:

I'm re-enforcing to vehicles around me that I am a vehicle and worthy of
respect.

I can see what's going on around me.

It's a lot less likely that I'll generate animosity from other vehicles.

It's a lot less stressful.

The saved travel time just isn't worth the risk.

That said last Thursday morning was a sweet day to be on a bike on Beach
Road. Offside lane chokka with stationary traffic whilst I only had the
odd tree or other debris to contend with on the near side
--
Cheers
Euan

 

[ProfTournesol]

Anyway, this raised some questions:

I believe I am allowed to ride to the left of cars (lane-splitting) so
long as none of the cars are indicating a left turn (this is the Vic law
I think). Is this correct?

I believe a law was introduced 6-12 months ago that prevented motorbikes
(and I assume motor scooters too) doing the same lane-splitting thing?
Is this correct?

I've had some close calls whilst riding to the left of stopped cars when
I haven't noticed a side-street and a right-turning car would just
'appear' in front of me through a gap in the stopped cars. Happens a lot
on Burke Rd. Camberwell because of all the pissy side-streets and
yuppies in 4wd's that I can't see over..

Anyway, if I can pass cars on their left, who's in the wrong if I
connect with a right-turner going through the gap in traffic?
Also, who would be at fault in the scooter incident above?

hippy
"thinking out loud.."

I asked those identical questions to the policeman manning the Police stand at the Bike Show last year. He told me:
As long as the cars were stationary and not indicating left, and it was safe to do so, you may pass cars stationary at the lights or intersections. You may pass at all times if there is a marked bike lane at the intersection as it then the onus of the vehicle changing lanes.

If a car is turning right across traffic it places the onus on that car to proceed safely no matter whether you are riding a bike or another car.

 

[geoffs]

In NSW my understanding is that you are able to legally overtake on the left of stationary traffic. if you are in the same lane as parked cars and passing them on the right, it is called overtaking a stationary vehicle and is perfectly legal. This is worth remembering for next time you get doored. )

My one collision with a vehicle in 23yrs of riding in Sydney has been when I overtook stationary traffic which had stopped to let someone out from their driveway. I was in the right and collected the insurance for a bike that had it's front wheel overlapping the back, but the car will always will in the damage stakes. I only damaged the front guard and scratched the bonnet with my brake levers.

 

[Gemma_k]

"ProfTournesol" <[email protected]> wrote
in message news[email protected]...
>
>> As long as the cars were stationary and not indicating left, and it was
> safe to do so, you may pass cars stationary at the lights or
> intersections.

Under the SA law as I remember it this is not quite right. You may not pass
on the left if the vehicle is indicating AND turning left. So if it's
stationary in a queue, but indicating, go your hardest.

Gemma

 

[aeek]

Under the SA law as I remember it this is not quite right. You may not pass
on the left if the vehicle is indicating AND turning left. So if it's
stationary in a queue, but indicating, go your hardest.

That's exactly as per the National Road Rules.

If its turning but not indicating, then avoiding a collision preempts right-of-way.

 

[DaveB]

dave wrote:
> Sadly he didnt know what a Katana
> was
>
>
> Dave

I'm tipping a lot of motorcyclists wouldn't either these days. Mmmmmmmmm
pop-up headlights.

DaveB "oops this aus.BICYCLES"

 

[NickZX6R]

dave wrote:
> DaveB wrote:
>
>> Marx SS wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Motorbikes can;t lane split in Vic, but I don't know of anyone whos
>>> been booked (I ride muddaboikes on the road too).
>>> Bicycles are OK to ride alongside on the left of traffic in Vic.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Disagree here on the motorbike view and have an insurance payout to
>> back it up. For a motorbike it is legal to overtake on the left of
>> stationary traffic and on the right of moving traffic even within the
>> same lane. I seem to recall a thread a while back (where I got it
>> wrong) that showed bicycles can also overtake on the left of moving
>> traffic (but not left indicating traffic). Basically what this means
>> for motorbikes is it is legal to lane split if both lanes are
>> stationary, but if they're moving, it's only legal if you stay to the
>> right of the left hand lane and stay in their lane (try proving that
>> one, luckily my situation involved stationary traffic).
>>
>> I hate scooter riders, they **** me on the motorbike and on the
>> bicycle. They can't seem to decide whether they want to ride like one
>> or the other so do a bit of both and do it badly. And when they lane
>> split and run out of space, they dive across to teh gutter without
>> bothering to check for bikes or motorbikes. Okay okay big
>> generalisations but they **** me more than any other traffic on the road.
>>
>> DaveB "taking some deep breaths now and calming down"
>
>
> Yeah I have to agree. They like.. dont wanna be motorcyclists cos
> motorbikes are big and scary or something.. but they dont want a
> pushbike becouse they are scared of lycra or sweat or something.
> Anyway.. they ride really badly.. and crummby little wheels cant do a
> lot to make them safe.
>
> I chased a fool who cut me off down along Chapel st on the pushy and
> when I cought him told he that if he cut me off again I would go get my
> Katana.. and challenge him to a drag.. Sadly he didnt know what a Katana
> was
>
>
> Dave

Katanas are a bit old school now though Dave.

I reckon the motorcycle market is a bit like the roadie market. Everyone
just wants whatever the latest is.

My motorbike is only a 96 model and even it looks a bit vintage compared
to current offerings.

The good side is, I'm not paying exorbitant amounts of insurance

--
Nick

 

[DaveB]

NickZX6R wrote:
> I reckon the motorcycle market is a bit like the roadie market. Everyone
> just wants whatever the latest is.
>
> My motorbike is only a 96 model and even it looks a bit vintage compared
> to current offerings.
>

And in keepign with the motorbike vs bicycle comparisons, my taste seems
to be the same in both. My MTB commuter and my FJ1200 could both be
described as solid, clunky and a bit past their prime (much like their
owner). And both are definitely due to be replaced but I think the MTB
has taken the lead since buying a house right next to a bike trail. The
FJ used to be my main transport to work but now the MTB has taken over
and the FJ only gets a go every fortnight (if I'm lucky).

DaveB

 

[slaw]

Anyway, if I can pass cars on their left, who's in the wrong if I
connect with a right-turner going through the gap in traffic?
Also, who would be at fault in the scooter incident above?

hippy
"thinking out loud.."

The car driver. Nearly witnessed such an event a couple of years ago. A guy was knocked off his bike coming down the High St hill in Northcote. There was banked up traffic and the motorist turned right through a gap, not seeing the cyclist. I was riding up the side street that the motorist was turning into. Arrived just after it happened so I called for the police and ambulance, and waited with the cyclist.

The cyclist was a recent immigrant, said he's just come from Centrelink, and was not wearing a helmet, but he was uninjured and the bike was OK. The motorist was an elderly gentleman who claimed he'd never had any accidents before, and he was quite shaken. The cops asked if I had seen what happened. When I said no, they ignored me and went over to book the motorist. So I left them to it.

 

[SteveA]

DaveB wrote:
> Marx SS wrote:
>
>>
>>
I chased a fool who cut me off down along Chapel st on the pushy and
when I cought him told he that if he cut me off again I would go get my
Katana.. and challenge him to a drag.. Sadly he didnt know what a Katana was


Dave

Of course you could have threatened him that if he cut you off again you would cut him (or parts of him) off with a Katana (the Japanese sword that is).

The Katana was traditionally worn with a short sword, the Wakizashi.

We know the Katana motorbike - I wonder what the Wakizashi bike equivalent would be?

SteveA

 

[Beavers]

ProfTournesol wrote:

> I asked those identical questions to the policeman manning the Police
> stand at the Bike Show last year. He told me:
> As long as the cars were stationary and not indicating left, and it was
> safe to do so, you may pass cars stationary at the lights or
> intersections. You may pass at all times if there is a marked bike lane
> at the intersection as it then the onus of the vehicle changing lanes.
>
> If a car is turning right across traffic it places the onus on that car
> to proceed safely no matter whether you are riding a bike or another
> car.
>
>

Any suggestions for Perth, where a heck of a lot of motorists (many, but
not all, in 4-wheel drives) don't bother indicating? Perhaps they're
trying to save money on replacing indicator bulbs?

 

[TimC]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 at 09:48 GMT, Beavers (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> ProfTournesol wrote:
>> As long as the cars were stationary and not indicating left, and it was
>> safe to do so, you may pass cars stationary at the lights or
>> intersections. You may pass at all times if there is a marked bike lane
>> at the intersection as it then the onus of the vehicle changing lanes.
>
> Any suggestions for Perth, where a heck of a lot of motorists (many, but
> not all, in 4-wheel drives) don't bother indicating? Perhaps they're
> trying to save money on replacing indicator bulbs?

Yes. Since it is illegal, /when/ they crash into you, sue their arses
off.

--
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
You're trying to trick me into being intelligent. It won't work.
-- David P. Murphy @ ASR

 

[dave]

DaveB wrote:
> Marx SS wrote:
>
>>
>> Motorbikes can;t lane split in Vic, but I don't know of anyone whos
>> been booked (I ride muddaboikes on the road too).
>> Bicycles are OK to ride alongside on the left of traffic in Vic.
>>
>>
>
> Disagree here on the motorbike view and have an insurance payout to back
> it up. For a motorbike it is legal to overtake on the left of stationary
> traffic and on the right of moving traffic even within the same lane. I
> seem to recall a thread a while back (where I got it wrong) that showed
> bicycles can also overtake on the left of moving traffic (but not left
> indicating traffic). Basically what this means for motorbikes is it is
> legal to lane split if both lanes are stationary, but if they're moving,
> it's only legal if you stay to the right of the left hand lane and stay
> in their lane (try proving that one, luckily my situation involved
> stationary traffic).
>
> I hate scooter riders, they **** me on the motorbike and on the bicycle.
> They can't seem to decide whether they want to ride like one or the
> other so do a bit of both and do it badly. And when they lane split and
> run out of space, they dive across to teh gutter without bothering to
> check for bikes or motorbikes. Okay okay big generalisations but they
> **** me more than any other traffic on the road.
>
> DaveB "taking some deep breaths now and calming down"

Yeah I have to agree. They like.. dont wanna be motorcyclists cos
motorbikes are big and scary or something.. but they dont want a
pushbike becouse they are scared of lycra or sweat or something.
Anyway.. they ride really badly.. and crummby little wheels cant do a
lot to make them safe.

I chased a fool who cut me off down along Chapel st on the pushy and
when I cought him told he that if he cut me off again I would go get my
Katana.. and challenge him to a drag.. Sadly he didnt know what a Katana was


Dave

 

[dave]

DaveB wrote:
> dave wrote:
>
>> Sadly he didnt know what a Katana was
>>
>>
>> Dave
>
>
> I'm tipping a lot of motorcyclists wouldn't either these days. Mmmmmmmmm
> pop-up headlights.
>
> DaveB "oops this aus.BICYCLES"

Any REAL motorcyclist would

 

[dave]

SteveA wrote:
> dave Wrote:
>
>>DaveB wrote:
>>
>>>Marx SS wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>
>>I chased a fool who cut me off down along Chapel st on the pushy and
>>when I cought him told he that if he cut me off again I would go get my
>>Katana.. and challenge him to a drag.. Sadly he didnt know what a
>>Katana was
>>
>>
>>Dave
>
> Of course you could have threatened him that if he cut you off again
> you would cut him (or parts of him) off with a Katana (the Japanese
> sword that is).
>
> The Katana was traditionally worn with a short sword, the Wakizashi.
>
> We know the Katana motorbike - I wonder what the Wakizashi bike
> equivalent would be?
>
> SteveA
>
>
Hmmmmm Well for the Non Samuri we have the Kwaka Ninja's

Dave