Scuffing a tube before patching necessary?

[Jasper Janssen]

On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:41:15 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>I once saw a gaudily dressed fellow on an expensive-looking bike stop
>on the highway ahead of me as I was climbing the ridge west of Pueblo.
>
>By the time I arrived, he'd yanked out a section of tube without
>removing his wheel, slapped a glueless patch on the goathead puncture,
>and was re-inflating his tire with a whiff from a CO2 cartridge.
>
>After a few words about goatheads, he zoomed off over the top of the
>ridge toward Wetmore (little more than a T-intersection with some
>farms and summer cabins), apparently confident that he had enough
>patches and CO2 for a 60-mile round trip through nowhere.

And you think carrying one or two spare tubes would significantly improve
his chances?

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:08:44 GMT, still me <[email protected]> wrote:
>On 04 May 2007 19:02:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
>> A BIC single blade is best for this
>>because it does not clog as easily as others with successive closely
>>spaced blades that clog even when shaving a beard.
>
>Is it possible to buy single edge BIC's anymore?

No. The cheap stuff is double-bladed, apparently.

Even the cheap stuff in Romania a few years ago was double-bladed.

Jasper

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 04 May 2007 19:02:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>The title of this thread is unfortunate as much as chains stretching
>from climbing steep hills. Patching a tube has nothing to do with
>surface roughness (scuffing). The purpose of sanding the area to be
>patched is to remove the "skin" or surface that was in contact with
>the mold during manufacture.

Why do you discount the possibility of both things being true
simultaneously? mold release agent may be the primary problem, but
scuffing a surface you're gonna be gluing to can't hurt..

Jasper

 

[Andrew Price]

On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:41:15 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>I once saw a gaudily dressed fellow on an expensive-looking bike stop
>on the highway ahead of me as I was climbing the ridge west of Pueblo.

On a road bike, I suppose, if he was dressed like a canary.

>By the time I arrived, he'd yanked out a section of tube without
>removing his wheel, slapped a glueless patch on the goathead puncture,
>and was re-inflating his tire with a whiff from a CO2 cartridge.

What size cartridges did he have? I've never been able to get more
than about 7 bars pressure out of those things in a 700x23 road tyre,
which is not enough for me to feel safe from pinch flats.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:41:15 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >I once saw a gaudily dressed fellow on an expensive-looking bike stop
> >on the highway ahead of me as I was climbing the ridge west of Pueblo.
>
> On a road bike, I suppose, if he was dressed like a canary.
>
> >By the time I arrived, he'd yanked out a section of tube without
> >removing his wheel, slapped a glueless patch on the goathead puncture,
> >and was re-inflating his tire with a whiff from a CO2 cartridge.
>
> What size cartridges did he have? I've never been able to get more
> than about 7 bars pressure out of those things in a 700x23 road tyre,
> which is not enough for me to feel safe from pinch flats.

Cartridges do come in different sizes, but my suspicion is that he's
just more willing to ride on 70 psi than you are.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[[email protected]]

yeah. i'm with the rack. sandpaper/isopropyl wash removing the grit/
good glue ranging from fresh Bell/fresh french racer patches glue/
superglue!
but truth is: it's a shop job.
carrying a spare tube is loads easier/effective than patching esp.
patching only to find the ((**^&*&^%% leaks taking it aprt again.
seriously expletive deleted. add biting insects and pursuit aliens.
especially if you're using a good tube eg specialized throneproof
why field butcher it when you can screw it up at home in the shop
playing light jazz in the AC?

 

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 06 May 2007 21:30:17 +0200, Andrew Price <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Fri, 04 May 2007 10:41:15 -0600, [email protected] wrote:
>
>>I once saw a gaudily dressed fellow on an expensive-looking bike stop
>>on the highway ahead of me as I was climbing the ridge west of Pueblo.
>
>On a road bike, I suppose, if he was dressed like a canary.
>
>>By the time I arrived, he'd yanked out a section of tube without
>>removing his wheel, slapped a glueless patch on the goathead puncture,
>>and was re-inflating his tire with a whiff from a CO2 cartridge.
>
>What size cartridges did he have? I've never been able to get more
>than about 7 bars pressure out of those things in a 700x23 road tyre,
>which is not enough for me to feel safe from pinch flats.

Dear Andrew,

I don't know what size CO2 cartridge he used, but he made me feel
fearfully old-fashioned with my hand pump, spare tubes, and drab
costume.

I haven't used CO2 inflators myself, but it was a high-pressure CO2
cartridge, the kind used in pellet guns, as opposed to the larger,
lower-pressure inflate-a-spare aerosol-can style things.

As Ryan points out in his reply, the CO2 cartridges do come in several
sizes--I see 12, 16, and 25 gram sizes.

Here's the Innovations pressure chart:

http://www.genuineinnovations.com/yieldchart.aspx

For a 27-inch bike tire, the chart claims that a 12 gram CO2 cartridge
will produce 90 psi and 6.2 bar, which is close to what your
experience suggests.

(Your pressure might be higher, given the smaller volume of a 700x23
tire versus a 27-inch 1 & 1/4 tire. On the other hand, a tube filled
with CO2 loses pressure much faster than a tube filled with ordinary
air, so the pressure may be significantly lower if you check it a few
days later.)

The chart claims that a 16 gram CO2 cartridge will produce 130 psi (9
bar) for a 27-inch bike tire, so maybe that's the size that you want.

What's odd is that the chart claims only 90 psi for the 25 gram
cartridge. Either it's a typo, or else the 25 gram cartridge is a
large volume, low-pressure cartridge that yields the same result as
the 12 gram cartridge.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[sal bass]

i've been using the self adhesive patches for several years and love
them.

in the case of these self adhesive patches.....the key is NOT to use
the piece of sandpaper to remove the mold release......but simply to
use water and a natural fiber to buff the tube to a nice bright
sheen.....apply the patch and ride.

i post about this a while back.....

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....lnk=st&q=&rnum=64&hl=en&#doc_a7b4312581e87f02



On May 3, 3:52 pm, "Tom Nakashima" <[email protected]> wrote:
> My reason for asking,
> I recently got a flat and used the one spare tube I carry, but got another
> the same day. I realized I had a flat kit, but forgot to back the sandpaper
> when I patched a tube at home. I just used water to clean the area
> before gluing and patching with a 16mm round Rema patch. It seems to
> be holding out ok. All this time I've been scuffing a tube, now wondering
> what's the use?
> -tom

 

[[email protected]]

On May 6, 5:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Dear Andrew,
>
> I don't know what size CO2 cartridge he used, but he made me feel
> fearfully old-fashioned with my hand pump, spare tubes, and drab
> costume.
>
> I haven't used CO2 inflators myself, but it was a high-pressure CO2
> cartridge, the kind used in pellet guns, as opposed to the larger,
> lower-pressure inflate-a-spare aerosol-can style things.
>
> As Ryan points out in his reply, the CO2 cartridges do come in several
> sizes--I see 12, 16, and 25 gram sizes.
>
> Here's the Innovations pressure chart:
>
> http://www.genuineinnovations.com/yieldchart.aspx
>
> For a 27-inch bike tire, the chart claims that a 12 gram CO2 cartridge
> will produce 90 psi and 6.2 bar, which is close to what your
> experience suggests.
>
> (Your pressure might be higher, given the smaller volume of a 700x23
> tire versus a 27-inch 1 & 1/4 tire. On the other hand, a tube filled
> with CO2 loses pressure much faster than a tube filled with ordinary
> air, so the pressure may be significantly lower if you check it a few
> days later.)
>
> The chart claims that a 16 gram CO2 cartridge will produce 130 psi (9
> bar) for a 27-inch bike tire, so maybe that's the size that you want.
>
> What's odd is that the chart claims only 90 psi for the 25 gram
> cartridge. Either it's a typo, or else the 25 gram cartridge is a
> large volume, low-pressure cartridge that yields the same result as
> the 12 gram cartridge.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

I am able to get about 100 psi from a 16 gram cartridge into my
26x1.125" road tires. As they're rated for 90 & usually run around
100, this works out well for me. I felt a 12 would be inadequate, and
considered the 25 but settled on 16 for cartridge availablity.
Knowing the pressure output is the same as the 12, I'm glad I stuck
with 16.

 

[[email protected]]

On 7 May 2007 08:04:43 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On May 6, 5:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Dear Andrew,
>>
>> I don't know what size CO2 cartridge he used, but he made me feel
>> fearfully old-fashioned with my hand pump, spare tubes, and drab
>> costume.
>>
>> I haven't used CO2 inflators myself, but it was a high-pressure CO2
>> cartridge, the kind used in pellet guns, as opposed to the larger,
>> lower-pressure inflate-a-spare aerosol-can style things.
>>
>> As Ryan points out in his reply, the CO2 cartridges do come in several
>> sizes--I see 12, 16, and 25 gram sizes.
>>
>> Here's the Innovations pressure chart:
>>
>> http://www.genuineinnovations.com/yieldchart.aspx
>>
>> For a 27-inch bike tire, the chart claims that a 12 gram CO2 cartridge
>> will produce 90 psi and 6.2 bar, which is close to what your
>> experience suggests.
>>
>> (Your pressure might be higher, given the smaller volume of a 700x23
>> tire versus a 27-inch 1 & 1/4 tire. On the other hand, a tube filled
>> with CO2 loses pressure much faster than a tube filled with ordinary
>> air, so the pressure may be significantly lower if you check it a few
>> days later.)
>>
>> The chart claims that a 16 gram CO2 cartridge will produce 130 psi (9
>> bar) for a 27-inch bike tire, so maybe that's the size that you want.
>>
>> What's odd is that the chart claims only 90 psi for the 25 gram
>> cartridge. Either it's a typo, or else the 25 gram cartridge is a
>> large volume, low-pressure cartridge that yields the same result as
>> the 12 gram cartridge.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>I am able to get about 100 psi from a 16 gram cartridge into my
>26x1.125" road tires. As they're rated for 90 & usually run around
>100, this works out well for me. I felt a 12 would be inadequate, and
>considered the 25 but settled on 16 for cartridge availablity.
>Knowing the pressure output is the same as the 12, I'm glad I stuck
>with 16.

Dear Dan,

Let me emphasize that I don't know whether the 90 psi claimed for the
25 gram cartridge is a typo or not.

If the 90 psi result is accurate, then the 25 gram cartridge uses
lower initial pressure than the 12 and 16 gram cartridges. But I don't
know why they'd bother to make a cartridge twice as big with half the
pressure when the whole point of cartridges is to reduce the size.

Maybe someone who's used them will let us know what really happens.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Andrew Price]

On 6 May 2007 16:36:20 -0700, sal bass <[email protected]>
wrote:

>in the case of these self adhesive patches.....the key is NOT to use
>the piece of sandpaper to remove the mold release

Why not?

 

[Lou Holtman]

[email protected] wrote:
> On 7 May 2007 08:04:43 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> On May 6, 5:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>> Dear Andrew,
>>>
>>> I don't know what size CO2 cartridge he used, but he made me feel
>>> fearfully old-fashioned with my hand pump, spare tubes, and drab
>>> costume.
>>>
>>> I haven't used CO2 inflators myself, but it was a high-pressure CO2
>>> cartridge, the kind used in pellet guns, as opposed to the larger,
>>> lower-pressure inflate-a-spare aerosol-can style things.
>>>
>>> As Ryan points out in his reply, the CO2 cartridges do come in several
>>> sizes--I see 12, 16, and 25 gram sizes.
>>>
>>> Here's the Innovations pressure chart:
>>>
>>> http://www.genuineinnovations.com/yieldchart.aspx
>>>
>>> For a 27-inch bike tire, the chart claims that a 12 gram CO2 cartridge
>>> will produce 90 psi and 6.2 bar, which is close to what your
>>> experience suggests.
>>>
>>> (Your pressure might be higher, given the smaller volume of a 700x23
>>> tire versus a 27-inch 1 & 1/4 tire. On the other hand, a tube filled
>>> with CO2 loses pressure much faster than a tube filled with ordinary
>>> air, so the pressure may be significantly lower if you check it a few
>>> days later.)
>>>
>>> The chart claims that a 16 gram CO2 cartridge will produce 130 psi (9
>>> bar) for a 27-inch bike tire, so maybe that's the size that you want.
>>>
>>> What's odd is that the chart claims only 90 psi for the 25 gram
>>> cartridge. Either it's a typo, or else the 25 gram cartridge is a
>>> large volume, low-pressure cartridge that yields the same result as
>>> the 12 gram cartridge.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Carl Fogel
>> I am able to get about 100 psi from a 16 gram cartridge into my
>> 26x1.125" road tires. As they're rated for 90 & usually run around
>> 100, this works out well for me. I felt a 12 would be inadequate, and
>> considered the 25 but settled on 16 for cartridge availablity.
>> Knowing the pressure output is the same as the 12, I'm glad I stuck
>> with 16.
>
> Dear Dan,
>
> Let me emphasize that I don't know whether the 90 psi claimed for the
> 25 gram cartridge is a typo or not.
>
> If the 90 psi result is accurate, then the 25 gram cartridge uses
> lower initial pressure than the 12 and 16 gram cartridges. But I don't
> know why they'd bother to make a cartridge twice as big with half the
> pressure when the whole point of cartridges is to reduce the size.
>
> Maybe someone who's used them will let us know what really happens.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel


Carl, take a better look at the table. It says 2 tires to 90 psi.

Lou
--
Posted by news://news.nb.nu (http://www.nb.nu)

 

[john]

On May 4, 11:26 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Fri, 04 May 2007 19:58:16 -0700, jim beam
>
>
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >Michael Warner wrote:
> >> On Thu, 03 May 2007 19:54:29 -0700, jim beam wrote:
>
> >>>> I don't know /anyone/ who carries a patch kit but no tube. Quite a few
> >>>> people have a large bag and carry two.
>
> >>> you do now - for road riding at least.
>
> >> What do you do when your tube isn't patchable e.g. it tears away at the
> >> stem or suffers a blowout or cut too large to be patched?
>
> >> If you have two tubes, the odds that neither can be patched are extremely
> >> small.
>
> >frankly, i've never had an irreparable problem on a road tube. i've had
> >mountain tubes utterly shredded when tires have blown off or punctured
> >and subsequently snake-bitten, but never that with road. my biggest
> >concern for road is a tire slash where the gap in the casing is too
> >large and the tube pokes through. can't ride that. i'll carry a spare
> >tire before i carry a spare tube on the road, and indeed, for commuting
> >where i don't have all day to putz about, i always /do/ carry a spare tire.
>
> Dear Jim,
>
> I carry a spare folding tire rolled up in a seat bag and spare tubes
> in a frame bag.
>
> Riding my rear brake slowly downhill while waiting for a friend turned
> out to be a bad idea. When I felt an odd thumping, I stopped, saw the
> bead creeping off the rim, and was frantically reaching for the Presta
> valve to let the air out when--
>
> Bang!
>
> Splat!
>
> http://i18.tinypic.com/4t9hswg.jpg
>
> Here's the unrepairable Slime tube with its rip propped open with a
> spoke and the Kevlar bead torn out of the tan sidewall propped open
> with a fold of the tube:
>
> http://i19.tinypic.com/53r4dp0.jpg
>
> With the spare tire, tube, and pump, it was an easy roadside repair,
> but it amused the hell out of my friend. Glad I didn't have to walk
> five miles home in the summer sun.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel

That's a very funny pix, Carl.
The other day I found a 'blowed up' slime mt. bike tube discarded in a
landscaped urban area, which I put in a recycle can, w/o getting much
Slime on me
My Good dead for the day.

 

[john]

On May 4, 12:27 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > The title of this thread is unfortunate as much as chains stretching
> > from climbing steep hills. Patching a tube has nothing to do with
> > surface roughness (scuffing). The purpose of sanding the area to be
> > patched is to remove the "skin" or surface that was in contact with
> > the mold during manufacture. This surface contains mold release,
> > sprayed into the mold to allow the it to be separated from the mold.
> > Cheese graters cannot do that reasonably and convey the wrong message
> > about th operation.
>
> > Also mentioned in this thread were mold ridges left on the tube from
> > mold segment boundaries. These can leave leak channels if they are
> > close to the perforation. The ridges cannot be sand papered away
>
> That's news to me. I just did so last weekend on a heavily ridged tube.
>
> Greg
> --
> The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html
>
> Dethink to survive - Mclusky

I've sanded the ridge down also, but it's a pia, takes forever. I have
some single edge BICs & am going to take Jobst's advice. Never felt
comfortable using any other blade.
But the Bic throw away sounds perfect.

 

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 07 May 2007 21:24:51 +0200, Lou Holtman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>> On 7 May 2007 08:04:43 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On May 6, 5:37 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>>>> Dear Andrew,
>>>>
>>>> I don't know what size CO2 cartridge he used, but he made me feel
>>>> fearfully old-fashioned with my hand pump, spare tubes, and drab
>>>> costume.
>>>>
>>>> I haven't used CO2 inflators myself, but it was a high-pressure CO2
>>>> cartridge, the kind used in pellet guns, as opposed to the larger,
>>>> lower-pressure inflate-a-spare aerosol-can style things.
>>>>
>>>> As Ryan points out in his reply, the CO2 cartridges do come in several
>>>> sizes--I see 12, 16, and 25 gram sizes.
>>>>
>>>> Here's the Innovations pressure chart:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.genuineinnovations.com/yieldchart.aspx
>>>>
>>>> For a 27-inch bike tire, the chart claims that a 12 gram CO2 cartridge
>>>> will produce 90 psi and 6.2 bar, which is close to what your
>>>> experience suggests.
>>>>
>>>> (Your pressure might be higher, given the smaller volume of a 700x23
>>>> tire versus a 27-inch 1 & 1/4 tire. On the other hand, a tube filled
>>>> with CO2 loses pressure much faster than a tube filled with ordinary
>>>> air, so the pressure may be significantly lower if you check it a few
>>>> days later.)
>>>>
>>>> The chart claims that a 16 gram CO2 cartridge will produce 130 psi (9
>>>> bar) for a 27-inch bike tire, so maybe that's the size that you want.
>>>>
>>>> What's odd is that the chart claims only 90 psi for the 25 gram
>>>> cartridge. Either it's a typo, or else the 25 gram cartridge is a
>>>> large volume, low-pressure cartridge that yields the same result as
>>>> the 12 gram cartridge.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> Carl Fogel
>>> I am able to get about 100 psi from a 16 gram cartridge into my
>>> 26x1.125" road tires. As they're rated for 90 & usually run around
>>> 100, this works out well for me. I felt a 12 would be inadequate, and
>>> considered the 25 but settled on 16 for cartridge availablity.
>>> Knowing the pressure output is the same as the 12, I'm glad I stuck
>>> with 16.
>>
>> Dear Dan,
>>
>> Let me emphasize that I don't know whether the 90 psi claimed for the
>> 25 gram cartridge is a typo or not.
>>
>> If the 90 psi result is accurate, then the 25 gram cartridge uses
>> lower initial pressure than the 12 and 16 gram cartridges. But I don't
>> know why they'd bother to make a cartridge twice as big with half the
>> pressure when the whole point of cartridges is to reduce the size.
>>
>> Maybe someone who's used them will let us know what really happens.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel
>
>
>Carl, take a better look at the table. It says 2 tires to 90 psi.
>
>Lou

Dear Lou,

You're right--hard to say if my reading is worse than the formatting
of the table.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Hank Wirtz]

On May 5, 5:35 pm, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:08:44 GMT, still me <[email protected]> wrote:
> >On 04 May 2007 19:02:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >> A BIC single blade is best for this
> >>because it does not clog as easily as others with successive closely
> >>spaced blades that clog even when shaving a beard.
>
> >Is it possible to buy single edge BIC's anymore?
>
> No. The cheap stuff is double-bladed, apparently.
>
> Even the cheap stuff in Romania a few years ago was double-bladed.
>

Hogwash. They're still made. They sell them at the grocery store
across the street from me.

http://www.bicworld.com/inter_en/bdd/product_men.asp?product_id=2

 

[[email protected]]

On 7 May 2007 13:31:37 -0700, Hank Wirtz <[email protected]> wrote:

>On May 5, 5:35 pm, Jasper Janssen <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Fri, 04 May 2007 21:08:44 GMT, still me <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >On 04 May 2007 19:02:14 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>> >> A BIC single blade is best for this
>> >>because it does not clog as easily as others with successive closely
>> >>spaced blades that clog even when shaving a beard.
>>
>> >Is it possible to buy single edge BIC's anymore?
>>
>> No. The cheap stuff is double-bladed, apparently.
>>
>> Even the cheap stuff in Romania a few years ago was double-bladed.
>>
>
>Hogwash. They're still made. They sell them at the grocery store
>across the street from me.
>
>http://www.bicworld.com/inter_en/bdd/product_men.asp?product_id=2

Dear Hank,

I note with alarm that the Bic single-edge razor is _not_ available in
Antarctica, according to the geographic list under "Key Benefits."

Possibly leopard seals, penguins, and skuas grow thicker beards in the
south polar cold and need multiple blades.

Thankfully, single-edge razors are available in Australia, since that
minor island is usually included in Oceania.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[sal bass]

the adhesive seems to require a smooth surface...not one abraded by
the sandpaper....to adhere and seal the hole....

every single person i've known who used the paper said the patch
either never adhered very well or never sealed the leak.....

i've had a tube with many glueless patchs and they all held the air in
for about a year and a half. always just buffed the tube to a sheen
and applied. no preperation of the tube prior to ride....no drying
out of the adhesive.....no tin required to carry al the stuff in (just
the tiny thing plastic cases).....no hassling with seams......no
seemingly soul crushing minutea of details required to get the stuff
to work.....




On May 7, 2:24 pm, Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6 May 2007 16:36:20 -0700, sal bass <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >in the case of these self adhesive patches.....the key is NOT to use
> >the piece of sandpaper to remove the mold release
>
> Why not?

 

[sal bass]

the adhesive seems to require a smooth surface...not one abraded by
the sandpaper....to adhere and seal the hole....

every single person i've known who used the paper said the patch
either never adhered very well or never sealed the leak.....

i've had a tube with many glueless patchs and they all held the air in
for about a year and a half. always just buffed the tube to a sheen
and applied. no preperation of the tube prior to ride....no drying
out of the adhesive.....no tin required to carry al the stuff in (just
the tiny thing plastic cases).....no hassling with seams......no
seemingly soul crushing minutiae of details required to get the stuff
to work.....


On May 7, 2:24 pm, Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 6 May 2007 16:36:20 -0700, sal bass <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >in the case of these self adhesive patches.....the key is NOT to use
> >the piece of sandpaper to remove the mold release
>
> Why not?